How does everyone feel about leveling? Should it be a slow grind to the top or a fast track to end game? I prefer the slow grind of leveling. I felt accomplished. I had milestones to work toward. It gave me time to make relationships with my fellow adventurers. I felt like part of the elite when I hit 60 in Everquest.
Dungeons. Personally, I loved the WoW classic dungeons. Mauradon being one of my favorites. I thought Kunark dungeons were some of the best in EQ. They felt mysterious. I felt like a real adventurer going into them. But with slow leveling, I would prefer more choices for dungeons. Maybe several smaller, instanced dungeons for quick exploits for certain level ranges. Larger open dungeons for multiple groups to explore. Think Skyrim, how many little dungeons are scattered throughout the world. It makes the process of leveling and dungeon crawling much less repeatitive. Once you've out leveled a dungeon there is little incentive to go back. How can this be fixed? Scaleable dungeons? Parts of dungeons locked until you've met a level requirement to enter that part?
Just something that's been on my mind. Wondering how others feel.
Regards,
Jason
Hi Jason,
I like a bit of a slower grind, I think one of the problems with modern MMO's is that it's so heavily focused on the end game that everything before that feels like an annoyance you have to get through before you can truly experience the game. When leveling is slower it lets the player really take in everything that went into the game. You experience more of the lower level zones, you spend time in them, and you create memories in them. With every WoW expansion released they have it so focused on the endgame I can hardly recall anything I did while leveling up. With EQ I have many memories of myself (a barbarian warrior) and my best friend (an ogre shadowknight) running around the commons fighting orc camps, running from griffons, yelling "TRAINNNN" as i ran from about 23 mummies chasing me, and getting very good at bagging my most valuable armor (we played on Rallos Zek PvP server). Those kinds of experiences are whats missing in modern games, and I would love to see that return.
Russell
I played a Dark Elf Shadowknight. I think i had a race and class exp penalty but I'm not positive on that. I spent several levels soloing the necromancer in front of the Fear portal. That really helped me hone my skills.
They say variety is the spice of life. I think this should be true with dungeons. Not just the large dungeons but smaller ones also. I wonder if there will be items with clicky effects. Even the lower level items with clickable effects were useful. This kept some of the older dungeons traveled. Also, repeating dungeons or areas for that one piece of loot. Remember the waiting line for the FBSS or SCHW? The good ole days.
I think slower leveling will help people hone their skills and make hitting those milestones much more enjoyable. Getting that really awesome spell, learning to feign death, setting your surname. That released so much dopamine for me.
Karnor's Castle.. probably the most trained zone in ever. I loved it though. I do hope there are plenty of dungeons. You only want to run the same dungeons so many times. After x amount of times its a chore.
Jason
I think i'm in complete agreement with the people above me, i like the slow pace of leveling and the grind in the hopes of getting something good while gaining xp (FBSS, ASS/SUP etc.). I also fondly remember the Testament of Venear questline, sitting and waiting for dillin? Mainly because of the spot tho, as it was traversed often to get to highkeep keeping the camp social, apposed to some SoL questlines where the zone would be empty for hours on end and the only thing to get there was 1 drop for a quest (cleric shield). Oh oh and what about lodizal? ohhh man so many memories! simply because it took time and you had to be smart on what you were doing!
I was in EQ beta 1,2, and 3. When EQ went live, we were frustrated by the fact the server farm didn't have enough bandwidth. I don't think Verant had realized just how many players were ready to go.
I think we were obsessed with leveling for about a day. After that, the gameplay, and the grouping, and working things out took all thoughts of leveling away. It just became all about playing the game and doing things and seeing things.
Then around 40 it again became important to level, so we stepped it up. Fear had been introduced as a raid zone, and we saw players forming raids near the bank in Freeport. Then we hit level cap, and raided, and did LGUK, and dragons (Lady Vox and Lord Nagafen). Then an expansion dropped.
By then I was guilded, and we did stuff together all the time. So while we were slowly leveling, the interpersonal part of the game masked concerns about leveling. I think we just adopted a mantra of "it will happen". Didn't even think of it as grinding, but rather as doing things together and oh by the way ding.
This is, to me, the biggest thing Pantheon is going to return us to. A game that is more about the journey than the destination.
I want extremely slow leveling , slow endurance based combat, harsh consequence penalties, and very difficult/dangerous and long travel through the game. Basically, release EQ design where leveling for 20-30 hours a week resulted in getting to max level in around 8+ months. Where killing a mob took minutes, not seconds. Where death meant a naked corpse run and exp loss with possible level loss. Where the travel (even on the roads in some places) still was not completely safe for anyone of low level (ie level range was widened by level) and the time it took someone to get from one side of the game to the other was counted in hours, not minutes.
That is first and foremost what I desire.
I suppose comparisons are useful here. Lets take world of warcraft for example. WOW produces a feeling that the game 'starts' when you hit max level and then you begin repeating ever increasingly difficult dungeons until you cap out, supposedly, on your skill level.
This does several undesirable things.
1. The rest of the game is easy, as is exploration and essentially homogenizes several beautiful zones.
2. The actual game becomes repetitive as you are practicing different variations of the same fight always.
3. The gear upgrades/differences are so bland that you barely care about doing mythic vs mythic+, I mean, you get the same story, same visuals, same everthing.
4. The feeling of discovering the world with friends is totally lost and therefore leveling up becomes nothing more than a chore.
5. To make this better there is the pay your way to max level option which leaves us with a bunch of unskilled lvl 100's to group with... this is a nightmare.
So yes, slow, social, meaningful leveling and dungeons that are what they are. You can either do a raid or you cannot. There is no easier version, no harder version, it is what it is and hopefully what it is is a real challenge. Something you work toward.
I think the real challenge for all this comes down to expansions. I would love to see content not get outdated when expansions hit. I don't really know what the solution to this is... but I really hope there is a creative solution for this.
I am 100% fine with slow leveling (and even prefer it), but I don't want to be stuck farming the same mobs forever. It is a strong worry of mine, considering their resistance to quests. Hopefully running through dungeons will be enough to level. If it's a long haul to level, it needs to have variety and engaging combat.
Naunet said:I am 100% fine with slow leveling (and even prefer it), but I don't want to be stuck farming the same mobs forever. It is a strong worry of mine, considering their resistance to quests. Hopefully running through dungeons will be enough to level. If it's a long haul to level, it needs to have variety and engaging combat.
It is inevitable that you will "farm" mobs in a slow leveling game. The offset to this is that the game may have numerous areas and avenues for you to vary this process. I remember farming mobs in one area, getting tired of it and then my friends and I began to explore, looking for other exp spots. This process was on going, exciting, risky and yet always eventually rewarding as we were able to find nice areas that allowed us to excell in leveling. I remember when Velious was first released, everyone went to the hot spots and avoided all of the areas that were hard to get to or intially difficult in their design. My guild spent an enormous amount of time in Sirens Grotto long before most people on the server even went there. It was difficult (pathing was attrocious), but we eventually learned the tricks which later allowed us to go deep into the zone when only raids ventured in to get key rare mobs that most didn't know about.
If they do it right, you won't level simply by running through a dungeon, you will spend days and weeks before you get a level, all depending on how well you do, and where you go.
Paloo said: Grind.....matter of fact I would love for Hell Levels to be in game. They sucked during that level but you felt a sense of accomplishment afterwards.
You and me both! Hardship is the only solution to achieve a healthy feeling of accomplishment. How many times in games that were easy did you say, whoo! I finally made that level in 30 mins! It was such an effort!
Tanix said:If they do it right, you won't level simply by running through a dungeon, you will spend days and weeks before you get a level, all depending on how well you do, and where you go.
I think you misunderstand. I'm not fond of the idea of "camping" a single area and just farming those mobs. I am fine with a slow leveling pace so long as I get some environment progression and have engaging combat to keep me busy. Thus the hope that going through dungeons will be a viable way to level. I did not say that doing one dungeon should get a level.
I personally want a slow progression but (and I don't feel these are mutually exclusive) I also share Naunet's concern that progression shouldn't amount to having to farm the same mobs repeatedly. Sitting on a zone wall pulling things for a few hours and chatting might be fun from time to time, but an adventure it is not.
What I'm hoping for is a situation where there is plenty of content at all levels that is interesting and desireable; where there are goals that we have apart from just "reach the next level". Whether that's trying to complete our set of bandit armor, or checking out the Frost Caves because we haven't been there yet, or trying to track down the minions of the Nameless Lord who seem intent on causing chaos throughout the land - it's these goals that set us on our adventures. The leveling should just happen along the way as a result of the encounters and challenges that we overcome in pursuit of those goals.
Obviously things will never be perfect, but a goal for design should be to have progression that is slow enough to be meaningful and provide players with plenty of time in each level range, and content that is plentiful, varied, and compelling enough to eliminate the need for simple grinding in order to advance.
Naunet said:Tanix said:If they do it right, you won't level simply by running through a dungeon, you will spend days and weeks before you get a level, all depending on how well you do, and where you go.I think you misunderstand. I'm not fond of the idea of "camping" a single area and just farming those mobs. I am fine with a slow leveling pace so long as I get some environment progression and have engaging combat to keep me busy. Thus the hope that going through dungeons will be a viable way to level. I did not say that doing one dungeon should get a level.
Ultimately that will be dependent on the player. Camping really only was an issue for those seeking "rare" mobs (for the drops). At certain logical areas through a dungeon, rare spawns would exist that coordinated with their location (A king in the kings room, an alchemist in a off room with such equipment, etc...). People over time found these rare mobs and began to camp them for their rarity in spawn and drops.
That however did not mean you could not dungeon crawl through an area. Often this depended on the number of players in such an area. For instance, while people were camping Velktor in Velious, among many other common zones, my guild and I would "dungeon crawl" Sirens Grotto. Since few were camping it (other than the entrance and exit areas), we could with free will and no competition travel in various patterns throughout the zone without "stoping and static camping".
Just because the masses do such, doesn't mean you have to. The real key will be if VR can achieve the result of enough content to cater to the "fad camping", but still be large enough in content to appeal to those who would go outside the bounds to achieve a different play style.
This is why EVERY element of game design is INTEGRAL to the game. This is why travel being hard is important. It is why travel being dangerous is important. There are so many subtle elements of game system design that drive many issues of play. This is why I am very skeptical when people dismiss minor elements of play as they do have a overall effect on other game systems.
Personally I would love them to toss in EXP for doing skills as well as killing things IE "you made a basket you gained Y exp" I dont mean it to be something like killing a mob you are able to level on but something to add to the fact you are increasing your "skill" thus gaining exp
Keno Monster said:I enjoy the opinions in this thread. I too want very slow leveling where you can spend days or even weeks in a single zone as you level. The type of connection to the world that I get from that experience is just amazing.
All I want people to do is think about how systems affect others. If they are ok with the results, at least they are honest.
Ask yourself..
1. How does fast travel have an effect on game play. Really think, be critical and objective, what "might" it influence, however small?
2. How does fast leveling have an effect on game play?
The list goes on, but you can think of any concept of play and go through an elevalution of the effects a given deisign might have.
The best way in my opinon is to evaluate it out of effect only, not through the opinion of a position. Rather, what does it result in... period.
Joppa has said on more than one occasian that this is going to be a camp based game and that the "running through" gameplay we see in streams is done to show off the zones. Of course this doesn't mean people won't be able to move around, particularly in lower populated zones, as Tanix said, and outdoors as well. I think where the real camping will come into play is in dungeons and other more difficult areas. Groups will clear to an area they can set up as their base and stay on top of the spawns there while pulling to that spot. Moving a group through a dangerous area is going to cause wipes so we're definitely going to see camping.
Nathos said:Personally I would love them to toss in EXP for doing skills as well as killing things IE "you made a basket you gained Y exp" I dont mean it to be something like killing a mob you are able to level on but something to add to the fact you are increasing your "skill" thus gaining exp
You are already increasing your skill, why do you need exp for it as well?
I do like the camping certain areas in EQ but I also like the idea of dungeon crawling and being done with that dungeon. Like I said, my favorite WoW dungeon is Mauradon and EQ would be one of the Kunark dungeons, probably Chardok or City of Mist. This is why I would like a combination of campable dungeons and instanced dungeons (but not like those in LDoN and such). I love exploring a place for the first time even if it's in increments and different camps. I also love dungeons crawling without having to just sit in one place and pull mobs or wait for respawns. Rare spawns in instanced dungeons felt satisfying when you would find one up. Completing a dungeon crawl felt good too.
I think most all agree that slow leveling is idea. So, milestones in leveling will be fundamental so you have that sense of accomplishment. Like getting dual wield, feign death, your class skills like Harm Touch, etc. Even something as little as surname at 30 was it?
Tanix said:That however did not mean you could not dungeon crawl through an area. Often this depended on the number of players in such an area. For instance, while people were camping Velktor in Velious, among many other common zones, my guild and I would "dungeon crawl" Sirens Grotto. Since few were camping it (other than the entrance and exit areas), we could with free will and no competition travel in various patterns throughout the zone without "stoping and static camping".
Just because the masses do such, doesn't mean you have to. The real key will be if VR can achieve the result of enough content to cater to the "fad camping", but still be large enough in content to appeal to those who would go outside the bounds to achieve a different play style.
This is why EVERY element of game design is INTEGRAL to the game. This is why travel being hard is important. It is why travel being dangerous is important. There are so many subtle elements of game system design that drive many issues of play. This is why I am very skeptical when people dismiss minor elements of play as they do have a overall effect on other game systems.
Scripting to create dynamic environments has evolved much over the years. The devs have plenty of tools at their disposal to naturally urge groups of players to stay on the move without making it seem artificial. Dungeons can have chambers with traps that must be deactivated elsewhere in the dungeon periodically. And through simple dungeon layout design, some paths within a dungeon could be one-way only (magic portals, holes you can jump down etc) to make it impossible to pull any mobs of value towards one location.
As for outdoor environments, those may have their own hazards like avalanches and poisonous fumes that can make it unsafe to stay in the same place for long. And scripts to simulate 'forced migration' for groups of monsters due to excessive killing may cause the camps themselves to retreat, relocate or be replaced by something else.
From what I've read and heard about Pantheon, some of such features are already planned. It's not going to be just a 'camping based' game.
Kaeldorn said:Tanix said:That however did not mean you could not dungeon crawl through an area. Often this depended on the number of players in such an area. For instance, while people were camping Velktor in Velious, among many other common zones, my guild and I would "dungeon crawl" Sirens Grotto. Since few were camping it (other than the entrance and exit areas), we could with free will and no competition travel in various patterns throughout the zone without "stoping and static camping".
Just because the masses do such, doesn't mean you have to. The real key will be if VR can achieve the result of enough content to cater to the "fad camping", but still be large enough in content to appeal to those who would go outside the bounds to achieve a different play style.
This is why EVERY element of game design is INTEGRAL to the game. This is why travel being hard is important. It is why travel being dangerous is important. There are so many subtle elements of game system design that drive many issues of play. This is why I am very skeptical when people dismiss minor elements of play as they do have a overall effect on other game systems.
Scripting to create dynamic environments has evolved much over the years. The devs have plenty of tools at their disposal to naturally urge groups of players to stay on the move without making it seem artificial. Dungeons can have chambers with traps that must be deactivated elsewhere in the dungeon periodically. And through simple dungeon layout design, some paths within a dungeon could be one-way only (magic portals, holes you can jump down etc) to make it impossible to pull any mobs of value towards one location.
As for outdoor environments, those may have their own hazards like avalanches and poisonous fumes that can make it unsafe to stay in the same place for long. And scripts to simulate 'forced migration' for groups of monsters due to excessive killing may cause the camps themselves to retreat, relocate or be replaced by something else.
From what I've read and heard about Pantheon, some of such features are already planned. It's not going to be just a 'camping based' game.
That may be true, but people will always find ways to circumvent such tactics and establish "camps". It may be that they end up due to the design claiming cycles of areas as camps, etc... but none the less, claims wil be made.
My only point was regardless if such occurs, if VR makes a large enough world, makes it dangerous enough in travel and play, and properly balances it via populations (as Brad has mentioned in terms of them being able to adjust the server size), then... there will "likely", always be areas where a group can, if they are willing, to go outside of the "norm" and achieve a result that is beneficial to them as I explained.
Sure, not saying that camping won't happen (it will), but if the devs want to design specific areas in ways that encourage players to progress through rather than staying in the same place, they can do that. Your ability to do full dungeon crawls doesn't have to hinge on them creating so much content that signficiant portions of it are going to be deserted at all times. They just have to be smart about it and create good opportunities for both styles of play.
Kaeldorn said:Sure, not saying that camping won't happen (it will), but if the devs want to design specific areas in ways that encourage players to progress through rather than staying in the same place, they can do that. Your ability to do full dungeon crawls doesn't have to hinge on them creating so much content that signficiant portions of it are going to be deserted at all times. They just have to be smart about it and create good opportunities for both styles of play.
Oh, I certainly concede that they may be able to achieve a means to promote a more active cycle of dungeon progression, but I think it is reasonable to expect, due to "need" and "desire" that players will become static in approach to achieve a given result.