I don't have a problem with mobs having skills that can counteract player tactics. This would include the ability to counteract snares and kiting ... where it makes sense. If a snared magic-using class dispells snare, fine. Got it.
What I would have a problem with is gimmicky nonsense that doesn't fit into a logical response by mobs. Snare just not working because it's inconvenient for the developers doesn't cut it. Snare ceasing to work if inconvenient conditions are met doesn't cut it. Requiring that X number of players engage a mob before snare works doesn't cut it. Tigers being able to dispell snare doesn't cut it.
What would really be pretty tragic is if the "I can't do that so no one should be able to" argument held any sway with the developers. It's a gauranteed path to mediocrity and a lack of real personality in the classes.
And no matter how many people would like to have you believe it, there were very very limited scenarios in which a solo player could exceed xp gains over that of a group. And even if they could the possible gains for level appropriate loot were considerably less.
People seem to think that anyone that could solo in EQ just sailed thru levels with impunity. It's a BS fantasy. It didn't work that way. Solo'ing as a necro or mage or druid brought with it a host of dangers that groups didnt face. Death was a very real possibility, and there wasnt a rez'r handy to bring you back with 90% xp regained. There wasnt a group helping you get back to your corpse. You weren't downing named with uber loot. They weren't able to solo everywhere in the world, and would sometimes spend days with zero positive xp gains (and often multiple negative xp gains) just to find a spot where solo'ing were a realistic possibility.
Feyshtey said:What would really be pretty tragic is if the "I can't do that so no one should be able to" argument held any sway with the developers.
Literally no one has made that argument in this thread.
Sylvanfox said: Well said, people need to understand no one is asking for the ability to solo easily and without having to ever require a group to see all of the content Pantheon will offer. Simply we just want the ability to take on the challenge of trying to take down a yellow con common creature, maybe a barely red con creature, Or maybe a couple blue / green con creatures like spiders or bears in a open area over a very long period of time with the expectation of a high probability of failure. We are not talking about boss type creatures here. In no way would this be a efficient way of leveling and this only works in open areas with the space to do it without running into other hostiles or adds.
Okay, that's fine. They've already said that there will be solo content available in the game. We've already seen mention that there will be these types of spells in the game. That's why there's been a reaction against snare/root spells having the same efficacy as in EQ outside of a group-context, because if there's already going to be solo-friendly content in the game and if we know these spells will be there, the assumption then becomes that the request for these spells has another motive: a desire to have them be as powerful outside of a group-context as they were in EQ to use them to exploit group content.
You will have higher levels in lower level areas farming popular creatures for profit. That is a real fact of what you will encounter in Pantheon. Agian before you respond with the it’s a unfair economic advantage argument, keep in mind that’s going to happen regardless whether it is a kiting class doing it or a high level character going back to lower level areas and doing it. That cannot be stopped unless they pulled a Skyrim and did level scaling. I do not foresee VR ever taking taking the route of level scaling. So hindering a class over the economic advantage arguement just doesn’t not work with Pantheons vision.
This is a separate issue and its existence doesn't justify poorly-implemented iterations of spells/combat arts. You can't say "Well, this bad thing is going to happen anyways, so it justifies another bad thing." Personally, I don't think grey-con mobs should drop loot to begin with, but that's a different discussion (and level-scaling is absolutely not the only way to prevent high levels from farming low-level content without a challenge).
In the end, it reduces down to this:
It's been 20 years since EQ, surely enemy AI can be used to mitigate the efficacy of roots/snares. I never want to see a scenario (at least in group content/group nameds/bosses) in which enemies just stand around like idiots while waiting for players to nuke/DoT them down, or to run slowly/pointlessly at players while snared until they're killed. All we're asking for is that snares/roots not be used to exploit group content like they have been in the past. Whether that's through enemy AI design (preferred) or limiting the efficacy of snares/roots, it's up to the devs.
Sicario said:Feyshtey said:What would really be pretty tragic is if the "I can't do that so no one should be able to" argument held any sway with the developers.
Literally no one has made that argument in this thread.
You're right. But there's nothing remotely unique about this thread on this topic. And ultimately much of the argument for some classes being able to use snare kiting to solo is in fact an argument about some classes being able to do it while others can't. It's nearly inevitable that this conversation (which has been had 1000's of times) will degrade into what some can do that others can't.
Sicario said:Okay, that's fine. They've already said that there will be solo content available in the game. We've already seen mention that there will be these types of spells in the game. That's why there's been a reaction against snare/root spells having the same efficacy as in EQ outside of a group-context, because if there's already going to be solo-friendly content in the game and if we know these spells will be there, the assumption then becomes that the request for these spells has another motive: a desire to have them be as powerful outside of a group-context as they were in EQ to use them to exploit group content.
They have said there will be areas in which you can solo. What they havent said is that there would be areas specifically designed to be solo, and others that are not. Another thing they've said is that they embrace the notion of emergent gameplay, and they encourage the players to find ways to do things that weren't specifically intended, that allow them to conquer content, solo or otherwise.
And you have already slipped into the falacy of the "efficacy" of solo play using things like snare kiting in EQ. It wasn't all that fantastic. It was slow, dangerous, and resulted in a very meager bank balance. (Except in rare scenarios.)
Why do you care if someone is slowing grinding xp for crap loot by kiting wolves? What possible impact can that have on you?
You will have higher levels in lower level areas farming popular creatures for profit. That is a real fact of what you will encounter in Pantheon. Agian before you respond with the it’s a unfair economic advantage argument, keep in mind that’s going to happen regardless whether it is a kiting class doing it or a high level character going back to lower level areas and doing it. That cannot be stopped unless they pulled a Skyrim and did level scaling. I do not foresee VR ever taking taking the route of level scaling. So hindering a class over the economic advantage arguement just doesn’t not work with Pantheons vision.
This is a separate issue and its existence doesn't justify poorly-implemented iterations of spells/combat arts. You can't say "Well, this bad thing is going to happen anyways, so it justifies another bad thing." Personally, I don't think grey-con mobs should drop loot to begin with, but that's a different discussion (and level-scaling is absolutely not the only way to prevent high levels from farming low-level content without a challenge).
Why would you want to prevent high levels from farming low level content? What end does it serve? All it does is artifiically inflate the value of lower level items, and eventually completely blows the economy spiraling into stupidity, with high level players spending massive coin on mundane crap.
In the end, it reduces down to this:
- Having roots/snares is absolutely fine, they're a wonderful tool that we already know will be in the game
- Being able to solo some content/level solo is also just fine (particularly that content that is designed to be solo-friendly)
- Using spells/combat arts to exploit poorly designed enemies that are meant for groups is not fine
It's been 20 years since EQ, surely enemy AI can be used to mitigate the efficacy of roots/snares. I never want to see a scenario (at least in group content/group nameds/bosses) in which enemies just stand around like idiots while waiting for players to nuke/DoT them down, or to run slowly/pointlessly at players while snared until they're killed. All we're asking for is that snares/roots not be used to exploit group content like they have been in the past. Whether that's through enemy AI design (preferred) or limiting the efficacy of snares/roots, it's up to the devs.
See again the phrase "emergent behavior" that the devs have said they are not only ok with, they embrace. They WANT us to do things they didn't anticipate. They WANT us to have the freedom to find ways to do things. Obviously if it's game breaking they will have to patch it. But there's nothing remotely game breaking about kiting.
Even if you take the more uncommon cases that existed in EQ where a person, solo:
You're freaking out to fix a "problem" that was never really a problem. It was a perception of unfairness. Which goes back to my original comment in this post about this always eventually degrading into a debate about fairness.
Feyshtey said:You're right. But there's nothing remotely unique about this thread on this topic. And ultimately much of the argument for some classes being able to use snare kiting to solo is in fact an argument about some classes being able to do it while others can't. It's nearly inevitable that this conversation (which has been had 1000's of times) will degrade into what some can do that others can't.
That's not what this conversation has been about, though, you're bringing up a point as a counterargument for something that hasn't even been stated yet and relying on it due to the fact that it's been brought up before. If anyone came forward in this thread and stated "I can't do that so no one should be able to," I would be right there with you in saying that it's a terrible argument and shouldn't be a consideration, because of course there should be some level of class disparity, even if that means some classes are going to be stronger in some situations than others.
However, that doesn't mean we can't discuss certain spells/abilities in isolation from the classes that have typically had those spells. Necros and Druids have been brought up before as examples. What we're really discussing here are these mechanics independent of any particular class possessing them.
They have said there will be areas in which you can solo. What they havent said is that there would be areas specifically designed to be solo, and others that are not. Another thing they've said is that they embrace the notion of emergent gameplay, and they encourage the players to find ways to do things that weren't specifically intended, that allow them to conquer content, solo or otherwise.
I'm not sure what your implication is with the first part, it's always seemed to me that by them saying that there will be areas in which you can solo, that solo-leveling will be a possibility (albeit highly inefficient). What's the difference between areas which can be soloed and areas specifically designed to be solo? In any case, my qualms with snare/root abilities aren't really centered on those abilities' uses for soloing common mobs, but rather their use in farming group content/nameds/bosses.
As for "emergent" gameplay, of course that's something that's desired in a game like this both by players and the devs. Now, that doesn't mean mob design should be shielded from criticism if certain abilities are allowing for domination of content that they're not particularly intended for. The "dumb" AI of old games (yes, that applies to EQ in some instances) doesn't really cut it anymore. If a mob is just endlessly and helplessly running at a player while snared, or just standing rooted and waiting to die without any form of fight, I think that's bad design. Enemies should call for help, they should switch to ranged weapons, they should cast cures if they're the appropriate caster archetype, etc. Beyond that, I would also hope that snares/roots are designed from the core around their utility as CC for group-context with appropriate weaknesses, e.g. if I snare or root an enemy, if I'm actively attacking it there should be a decent chance that the snare/root will break.
Why would you want to prevent high levels from farming low level content? What end does it serve? All it does is artifiically inflate the value of lower level items, and eventually completely blows the economy spiraling into stupidity, with high level players spending massive coin on mundane crap.
It hurts lower level players from being able to actively participate in the economy, it often results in content for lower level players being dominated by farmers who have absolutely none of the challanges that level-appropriate players do, and if there is incentive for new character creation throughout the life of Pantheon I don't really see an "artificial inflation" problem being a.... problem. Why reward people for beating content that's not even remotely a challenge, especially when that content is then denied to level-appropriate characters who have no recourse against the farmers?
It doesn't matter if you make some enemies able to call for friends and break snares if it makes sense. People won't solo those. They will solo the ones who can't break snares. Or they will root/mezz enemies until they can kite just 1 at a time. The important thing is that the enemies not give so much exp solo that soloing grants more exp per hour then grouping if they want grouping to be the main play style. For me that would be the perfect solution, reduced exp for soloing. This way all the soloers could solo all they want, but not be circumventing the time that is supposed to be put into soloing with grossly unfair exp gains.
As for players farming low level enemies, I think that is fine. If I need roadrunner feathers to cast my speed of the roadrunner speed buff and I happen to be able to solo them because I am level 50 and they are level 5, then I should be able to get them myself if I want. It is terribly silly to be able to fight them at level 5, but then at level 50 I cannot. And yes, an artificial inflation problem will indeed occur, especially so if you can't get your own items and don't want to level an alt to farm them. It occurs already in games when the only thing stopping a person from getting said items is plain laziness.
Sicario said:That's not what this conversation has been about, though, you're bringing up a point as a counterargument for something that hasn't even been stated yet and relying on it due to the fact that it's been brought up before. If anyone came forward in this thread and stated "I can't do that so no one should be able to," I would be right there with you in saying that it's a terrible argument and shouldn't be a consideration, because of course there should be some level of class disparity, even if that means some classes are going to be stronger in some situations than others.
However, that doesn't mean we can't discuss certain spells/abilities in isolation from the classes that have typically had those spells. Necros and Druids have been brought up before as examples. What we're really discussing here are these mechanics independent of any particular class possessing them.
Hell your first post was enitrely focused on one class being broken because they could do something you needed a group to do. You didn't flat out say it was unfair, but that was essentially the gist of it. That first post also acknowleges that this game is being design with an emphasis on group play. But disregards the fact that it's not entirely about group play. Every dev has a quote at one point or another stating they feel the ability to solo should exist. They've also stated quite plainly that some classes will solo better than others. So... why would the ability to kite granted to some classes known to be designed in a way that allows them to solo better be something that must elminated?
What are you fixing, exactly, by removing kiting? Do you intend for the devs to specifically design certain classes with some other skills that allow them to solo better? Or is it more likely that some classes, due to the skills that have historically existed for them, will allow solo ability over other classes?
So as an example: a necro having the ability to use snares and pets to kite mobs is bad, why?
Sicario said:I'm not sure what your implication is with the first part, it's always seemed to me that by them saying that there will be areas in which you can solo, that solo-leveling will be a possibility (albeit highly inefficient). What's the difference between areas which can be soloed and areas specifically designed to be solo? In any case, my qualms with snare/root abilities aren't really centered on those abilities' uses for soloing common mobs, but rather their use in farming group content/nameds/bosses.
A search thru the many threads on these forums about solo'ing would largely answer your question about what I meant. EQ didn't have areas "designed" for solo'ing. It just had content. Some of it more challenging, some of it populated by mobs that had skillsets that were more demanding of player resources, some with geographic challenges. The point is that they didn't go thru their design thinking, "ok, over here we need to make it a solo-friendly area". They just made varried degrees of difficulty, terrain, mobs, etc. And some areas proved to be areas in which solo'ers could pick off mobs. Devs have talked about this very thing. It wasn't, and isn't intended in Pantheon, to be a concious choice to build solo content. It's just an organic result of areas being uniquely different, and of player ingenuity finding what works, where and how.
Sicario said:As for "emergent" gameplay, of course that's something that's desired in a game like this both by players and the devs. Now, that doesn't mean mob design should be shielded from criticism if certain abilities are allowing for domination of content that they're not particularly intended for. The "dumb" AI of old games (yes, that applies to EQ in some instances) doesn't really cut it anymore. If a mob is just endlessly and helplessly running at a player while snared, or just standing rooted and waiting to die without any form of fight, I think that's bad design. Enemies should call for help, they should switch to ranged weapons, they should cast cures if they're the appropriate caster archetype, etc. Beyond that, I would also hope that snares/roots are designed from the core around their utility as CC for group-context with appropriate weaknesses, e.g. if I snare or root an enemy, if I'm actively attacking it there should be a decent chance that the snare/root will break.
In some ways I agree. In others, I don't. If the mob I have snared is a honey badger (ridiculously single-mindedly aggressive) and I have it snared, there's some logic in it wanting to continue to kill me. Even if it's not and its AI determines that survival is the better part of valor and it needs to run.... it's still snared. That animal doesnt have skills that allow it to dispell my snare. Now if you want to come up with tactics that make sense like it burrowing into a hole where I can't get to it? Ok, I can buy that. If you just don't like that I have tools available to kill it without it having the ability to kill me (unless I screw up), then as a dev I challenge you to not be lazy and just dispell my tactics because they are unfair.
See, this is where game design to me reaches a precarious tipping point: Spend the resources to make good game decisions to thwart behavior to dont like, or patch in some gimmicky POS solution that fits no logic, lore or continuity but takes no real thought or development time. Unfortunately the latter is far more common than the former, and more than a few games have become so riddled with crap that the game becomes a clunky, confusing mess that makes you feel like you're bottled in on all sides with no real creative freedom in how to tackle the gameworld.
And that brings me back to the fundamental question: What are you fixing by removing kiting?
If all your fixing is that some classes have the option to solo for crap xp and crap loot, then the solution should never be to put guiderails on the game that make it all feel artificial.
Sicario said:It hurts lower level players from being able to actively participate in the economy, it often results in content for lower level players being dominated by farmers who have absolutely none of the challanges that level-appropriate players do, and if there is incentive for new character creation throughout the life of Pantheon I don't really see an "artificial inflation" problem being a.... problem. Why reward people for beating content that's not even remotely a challenge, especially when that content is then denied to level-appropriate characters who have no recourse against the farmers?
Is it harmful to lower level players to allow them to be the only ones that can farm low level mundane items (I'm thinking tradeskill components here, mainly), be rewarded excessive amounts of coin by selling it to higher level players, which in turn then makes any game mechanic that relys on coin trivial to the point of being meaningless? My argument is that it undoubtedly does. It quickly nullifies so many of the challenges the developers have tried to scale accurately that are based in economics. And in a way that can't really be planned for without either making the game-driven economy fluctuate, or by making the gameplay experience of the first generation of players so economically harsh that it'd drastiically reduce the fun.
What's the point in NPC's charging X-coin for spells, or training, or tradeskill practice items when the player can get 10X more than they need in coin by selling a stack of spiderling silk to a high level player that cant farm spiderling silk for themself?
You actually see this very thing in MMO's that don't have limitations on who can farm what right now. The later players to any MMO are at a significant advantage over the first players of the game, because they have a revenue source that didn't exist before. It's an unfortunate reality, and I've never heard anyone come up with a means to correct it. But limiting who can kill/loot what compounds it exponentially.
See, this is precisely what I am trying to describe: The well-intentioned "fixes" that have major downstream ramifications, often (mostly) detrimental to the health and enjoyment of the game.
One one of the biggest reasons I'm hoping to enjoy this game is that it won't have all the gimmicks that limit play. I am sick to death of the 100's of titles on the market today with instances, locked encounters, oddball rules on when you can use what skill, arbitrary timers, spawned named, etc, etc, etc... It is counterproductive to creating a living breathing world, because it smacks you in the face constantly to remind you your just playing a game.
Rallithon said: I played a Druid in EQ. Kiting was not as simple as ppl seem to think. Quad kiting was even harder. It took skill to properly kite mobs. Also, it was the worst form of trying to level. I soloed when I needed certain gear or plat feom giants, lol. But, in regards to leveling, grouping in dungeons and sitting in camps was the fastest way to level. I'm sure there will be some classes with better abilities to solo than others. We can't have a million Dire Lords and Rogues running around. I believe every class will be so diverse, that each one will have unique skills needed in groups and for soloing abilities at later levels. I remember playing a Rogue in EQ. There were many Rogues, but they were dreadful at soloing. What did most ppl do? Either dealt with it and strictly grouped, or rolled a Necro, Druid, or Bard, lol.
...I played a necro in EQ1. And kiting was very easy... even with the necro snare spell lasting SIGNIFICANTLY less time than the druid, if I planned my pull out properly even i could quad kite.
Kiting trivializes the difficulty of the game. I was kiting planar mobs that could easily RIP thru a tank if they weren't slowed and there was 0 chance of danger for me.
Even in classic (TLP). I was able to feign into a fully popped plane of fear and kite boogeyman for hops of my planar robe.
EQ did a really good job regarding class balance if you ask me. I never felt some classes are actually left out when it came to grouping. I pretty much like to keep this balance for Pantheon and not change it cause our "new mmo standart rules might see it as a problem" its thoose new "what should a mmo be rules" that ruined pretty much ALL of the new mmos for me. I hope we stay pretty close to the EQ design while adding some more interesting quirks to it and never subtract something that had a deeper sense behind it.
For example all the tanks werent that great at soloing in EQ. But in groups you pretty much needed them to be efficient. So if you played a tank it pretty much meant a group spot is guaranteed.
You could always make an alt char if you wanted to solo better your not stuck to be a class that cant solo but shines in groups. If your bothered by why cant my tank solo just go play a class that can.But i would be sad if we start to say,... this class cant solo why should others be able to??!! Lets immediatly change the game so they cannot ever solo change the ai so snare doesnt work and so on. (this would make it already a worse game then eq was for me)
If your bothered why can any class solo at all...... I would say i dont mind at all since i can always go play that class if i want to do it too. But my class is special cause it shines in Groups and im dedictated to it and got some really good gear and im pretty much searched for when it comes down to grouping. Every class had its merits and downfalls. Some had more merits and less downfalls that was something that could have been a lil better.
But after all it worked pretty well.
(I even liked the Cleric being best at healing thing while Druids and Shamans could heal at maybe 70% efficiency vs a Cleric but had better Gimmicks,.. something Pantheon seems to change but it should be ok i guess and hope the Cleric will be more interesting cause he gets more Gimmicks)
EQ after all will forever be the MMO i liked the most out of all the Mmos i ever played so far (about 30 i guess) Second rank is DDO online. And after that its all just mediocrity to bad but thats personal preference.
Feyshtey said:People seem to think that anyone that could solo in EQ just sailed thru levels with impunity. It's a BS fantasy. It didn't work that way. Solo'ing as a necro or mage or druid brought with it a host of dangers that groups didnt face. Death was a very real possibility, and there wasnt a rez'r handy to bring you back with 90% xp regained. There wasnt a group helping you get back to your corpse. You weren't downing named with uber loot. They weren't able to solo everywhere in the world, and would sometimes spend days with zero positive xp gains (and often multiple negative xp gains) just to find a spot where solo'ing were a realistic possibility.
Honestly I disagree with you. When I was maining my necro, I was in FAR LESS danger soloing then if I had a group. When you join a group you rely on the puller, the tank, the healer AMD potentially even the CC to be competant. That's not always the case. Couple that with the time it takes to actually find a group, go to a camp, continually find replacements.... there were many a days where I out leveled my friend completely by soloing. Between a mixture of snare kiting, root rotting and even charming...(ghoul lord makes an amazing hatted charmed pet) I gain steady exp and I know exactly what the risk is.
When you create a group centralized game, and give certain classes the ability to ignore the need for a group, it messes with the game balance. And all that will do is lead to developmental changes in the future.
Porygon said:Feyshtey said:People seem to think that anyone that could solo in EQ just sailed thru levels with impunity. It's a BS fantasy. It didn't work that way. Solo'ing as a necro or mage or druid brought with it a host of dangers that groups didnt face. Death was a very real possibility, and there wasnt a rez'r handy to bring you back with 90% xp regained. There wasnt a group helping you get back to your corpse. You weren't downing named with uber loot. They weren't able to solo everywhere in the world, and would sometimes spend days with zero positive xp gains (and often multiple negative xp gains) just to find a spot where solo'ing were a realistic possibility.
Honestly I disagree with you. When I was maining my necro, I was in FAR LESS danger soloing then if I had a group. When you join a group you rely on the puller, the tank, the healer AMD potentially even the CC to be competant. That's not always the case. Couple that with the time it takes to actually find a group, go to a camp, continually find replacements.... there were many a days where I out leveled my friend completely by soloing. Between a mixture of snare kiting, root rotting and even charming...(ghoul lord makes an amazing hatted charmed pet) I gain steady exp and I know exactly what the risk is.
When you create a group centralized game, and give certain classes the ability to ignore the need for a group, it messes with the game balance. And all that will do is lead to developmental changes in the future.
But some classes being able to do such things is exactly what made EQ so interesting to me. Being able to solo certain things in a group centric game if you dedictated yourself to certain classes was pretty much a big selling point to me. If your going to remove this your prolly going to remove alot of fun that could be had for alot of ppls. (I grouped alot but i enjoyed being able to get some additional income when playing some of my alts but i usualy did this to get loot not for xps, xps at least in early EQ seemed to always be easier to get in groups instead of solo, later it might have changed after some expansions)
Porygon said:Feyshtey said:People seem to think that anyone that could solo in EQ just sailed thru levels with impunity. It's a BS fantasy. It didn't work that way. Solo'ing as a necro or mage or druid brought with it a host of dangers that groups didnt face. Death was a very real possibility, and there wasnt a rez'r handy to bring you back with 90% xp regained. There wasnt a group helping you get back to your corpse. You weren't downing named with uber loot. They weren't able to solo everywhere in the world, and would sometimes spend days with zero positive xp gains (and often multiple negative xp gains) just to find a spot where solo'ing were a realistic possibility.
Honestly I disagree with you. When I was maining my necro, I was in FAR LESS danger soloing then if I had a group. When you join a group you rely on the puller, the tank, the healer AMD potentially even the CC to be competant. That's not always the case. Couple that with the time it takes to actually find a group, go to a camp, continually find replacements.... there were many a days where I out leveled my friend completely by soloing. Between a mixture of snare kiting, root rotting and even charming...(ghoul lord makes an amazing hatted charmed pet) I gain steady exp and I know exactly what the risk is.
When you create a group centralized game, and give certain classes the ability to ignore the need for a group, it messes with the game balance. And all that will do is lead to developmental changes in the future.
Your comment about quading with a necro? I call BS, unless you were pulling mobs that were almost trivial to you already. Two mobs? Yeah. Ok. Three? That's pushing it. Four? BS.
The comment about kiting planar mobs? Sure, if you're talking about PoP, because essentially everything was planar. But I call BS again if you're suggesting you were kiting in old school planes when they were level appropriate.
Was it possible for a necro to do crazy things? Absolutely. But you had to be damn good at your class to pull it off, be geared really well in most cases, and almost always died a few times figuring out how in a particular scenario. And the fact that you had to be really good at your class was a testament to the flexibility of the system. When you start limiting what/where/how skills or spells can be used, a hell of a lot of that exceptional gameplay possibilty is killed.
The ability for some classes to use their spells or abilities creatively and solo via snare kiting, fear kiting or quadding should still be possible, but restricted to regular mobs. Named mobs should have their own CC, nukes, pulls and gap-closing abilities to prevent single players from soloing group based named bosses. That way soloing is still possible for XP, but no group should find themselves going through a dungeon to only find a higher level solo player camping a named.
Ezrael said:The ability for some classes to use their spells or abilities creatively and solo via snare kiting, fear kiting or quadding should still be possible, but restricted to regular mobs. Named mobs should have their own CC, nukes, pulls and gap-closing abilities to prevent single players from soloing group based named bosses. That way soloing is still possible for XP, but no group should find themselves going through a dungeon to only find a higher level solo player camping a named.
Give mobs sensable skills to counteract player tactics? Yes.
Tab mobs as named or not, and change the rules according to the tags? No.
Lots of people in this thread have thrown around the "They have said..." statements, but nobody actually linked any sources. So I just wanted to actually link you guys the place where they actually talked about soloing and if classes will have 'solo-friendly' abilities.
In the CohhCarnage Rogue Pre-Alpha Gameplay stream (December 9, 2016) at timestamp 1:03:32 until 1:04:37.
Basic Summary if you don't want to watch the video:
1) We will always be a Group Centric and Group Focused game.
2) There will be no effort made to discourage soloing.
3) If you can find ways to do it solo, then we encourage that.
4) There may be certain quests attached to class development that are meant to do solo.
In the CohhCarnage Monk Pre-Alpha Gameplay stream Part 1 (April 27, 2017) at timestamp 34:35 until 35:51.
Basic Summary if you don't want to watch the video:
1) Pantheon is a designed to be a Group centric game, but there will be the ability to solo.
2) They are not designing any class in a way to make them better at soloing.
3) They fully expect to be surprised at how players figure out how to play their class.
4) You are welcome to solo if you can, but it will be very challenging.
In the second CohhCarnage Rogue Pre-Alpha Gameplay stream (March 18, 2018) at timestamp 29:50 until 30:50.
Basic Summary if you don't want to watch the video:
1) Mostly group, but at one end you have the Solo content and at the other end the Raid content with the Primary focus on the classic group.
2) You will find that there are some classes that can fair fairly well solo; typically when you've out leveled the content a little bit, and in some cases even at level.
3) The norm will be players coming together to form groups, even smaller groups as it doesn't need to be a full group.
So there you have it... several spots over the years where they have answered questions directly related to 'soloing'.
I just wanted to say that I don't have any particular point to make on the various discussions here in the thread. I just saw people saying things like "They have said this..." or "They said they will be doing that...." and thought maybe people would want to know eactly what the Dev's have specifically said on the topic rather than just the 'hearsay' being thrown around.
@Feyshtey, I think we've had a little miscommunication. I want to try to bring some clarity to the points I'm trying to make. I think we do agree on some things more than it appears at first glance, despite still having some differences of opinion on a few other things.
I believe the ability to solo some content is absolutely fine. I am not trying to advocate for a game experience where it is impossible to solo, I think that capability is important to have in the game, even if it's not the focus nor the primary means of experiencing the game. I don't mind that at all, especially in regards to the possibility to level solo. The main concern I have is making sure that there aren't spells/abilities in the game that make it possible for solo players to farm what's intended to be group content. This concern stems from the experiences I (and many others) have had in working our way through a dungeon to reach a named/boss, and finding certain classes solo-farming those group-tier mobs for loot drops to sell (particularly by using snares/roots to do so).
I am not targeting any particular class, I am discussing the mechanics of snares/roots independent of class. The classes I've mentioned previously in posts were only used for the purposes for highlighting what I think are good examples of how the mechanics I'm discussing have been previously used. I do not believe in the concept of class parity, and I am not asking for all classes to have a "fair" experience. I don't think that makes for a good game.
I am not asking for snares/roots/kiting to be removed from the game. I have never once stated that I wish for snares/roots to be removed from the game, despite you claiming (or clearly implying) that I have. What I am asking for is that when the devs design enemies, particularly those meant for groups, that they take an innovative approach in regards to mob AI to mitigate some of the more extreme "abuses" that we've seen in previous games. Yes, I agree with you that a basic animal like a badger doesn't need complex AI outside of behaviors that would make sense for it (calling for help? no. burying itself in the ground, maybe). When it comes to the more highly-intelligent creatures that populate Terminus, though, I would like to see those more realistic behaviors of calling for aid or switching to a ranged weapon if available. I also don't think it's unreasonable to design these spells with self-regulating weaknesses, e.g. a reasonable chance to break upon the snared/rooted enemy being repeatedly damaged. Ultimately, I do agree with you that a non-magical creature being able to dispell snares/roots is a poor balancing design, and I would much prefer more engaging and creative means to balance these abilities.
Concerning high-level characters farming grey-con mobs for drops, I'm primarily concerned about gear drops. I do agree with you that when it comes to tradeskill resources (like spider silk or whatever else), that high-level characters should have the ability to farm lower-level mobs for those tradeskill drops. Gear drops is a separate issue, though, and I should have done a better job being clear about my concerns being centered on gear drops. When I'm speaking about being concerned in this area of game design, it's with visions of, once again, going through dungeons with a group only to find every named mob being farmed by a high-level player who doesn't face any of the challenges that the group of level-appropriate players are facing.
If a High lvl player considers camping low lvls spawns cause of the great loot i call it a good balanced game that keeps players interested in it. If thers something like trivial loot codes added the game automatically fails for me.Every high lvl player needs to see for himself if its worth to make other ppls eventually angry against him cause he takes away valuable spots. Cause if alot higher end loots is (gated behind group play) you better dont get on ppls bad sides all the time. (2000 to 4000 players on a server means you might see somones name again soon). Not like in todays 500000 person instance mmos where player reputation doesnt really affect you ever.
Being able to kite or even root rot comes down to AI of the mobs. Will they have a short leash range or have the ability to summon players to avoid being kited? If casters can't kite or root rot, then their ability to solo is going to be near zero cause they arent going to be able to take damage. I don't think you need to take out kiting to keep the devs vision of a group centric with challenging solo gameplay.
Feyshtey said:Stuff
Lol... so let me get this straight. You call bs on someone because they were able to do something you could not?
In PoP my necro had sow boots from seru and direcharm. I walk into HoH and dire charm a cute little undead sentry and park in at the entrance in the GY.
Many of the pulls were 2-4 mobs. My snare lasted roughly 3 mins. Snare 1 mob, run, snare second, run at this point you were most likely in the gy. Snare the 3rd as it turns the corner on you and send your pet on the 4th, taking aggro and allowing you to snare the 4th which steal aggro right back. At this point you cast your 2 fire dots and low level snare on the 4th mob, and cycle back to resnare all 4. Once the first mob is dead the 2md is already at 85 to 90% and you just repeat this cycle. The entire pull will end you at roughly 50m and ready to go again. Each mob was worth iirc 12% aa a kill solo.
At level 50. As a necro. You can zone into a fully popped pofear and immediately FD. You then pan your camera and watch the pathing of the mobs and when there are none around you stand up and run as far as you can to the SW safe spot, fding again. From this point you have to kite and kill about 3 or 4 trash mobs before being in range of the boogeymen on the west wall.
There are alot of people that play video games that are substantially better than most. Just because you have not seen things done, or you have not been able to do it, does not mean it's impossible.
I used to SOLO heal 25 man raids on my holy pally in WoW during wrath. Just because everyone cant do it, doesnt mean it cant be done.
Porygon said:Feyshtey said:Stuff
Lol... so let me get this straight. You call bs on someone because they were able to do something you could not?
In PoP my necro had sow boots from seru and direcharm. I walk into HoH and dire charm a cute little undead sentry and park in at the entrance in the GY.
Many of the pulls were 2-4 mobs. My snare lasted roughly 3 mins. Snare 1 mob, run, snare second, run at this point you were most likely in the gy. Snare the 3rd as it turns the corner on you and send your pet on the 4th, taking aggro and allowing you to snare the 4th which steal aggro right back. At this point you cast your 2 fire dots and low level snare on the 4th mob, and cycle back to resnare all 4. Once the first mob is dead the 2md is already at 85 to 90% and you just repeat this cycle. The entire pull will end you at roughly 50m and ready to go again. Each mob was worth iirc 12% aa a kill solo.
At level 50. As a necro. You can zone into a fully popped pofear and immediately FD. You then pan your camera and watch the pathing of the mobs and when there are none around you stand up and run as far as you can to the SW safe spot, fding again. From this point you have to kite and kill about 3 or 4 trash mobs before being in range of the boogeymen on the west wall.
There are alot of people that play video games that are substantially better than most. Just because you have not seen things done, or you have not been able to do it, does not mean it's impossible.
I used to SOLO heal 25 man raids on my holy pally in WoW during wrath. Just because everyone cant do it, doesnt mean it cant be done.
Quad kiting was very much a thing in EQ depending on class, mob set up, and player skill. This is why I very much hope that the devs make sure that the exp is not high for soloing. In a group based game soloing should not be the best way for any class to get exp. Wanting to see what kind of kills you can pull off solo is cool and all, but I strongly disagree with it being a viable way to gain experience when compared to grouping.