There are quite a few opinions here on the overall issue of customization, whether it works like AA and whether it is called AA or not.
These range from strong negatives to anything going beyond the basic class, to strong positives for doing something to make playing after maximum level rewarding (in ways other than gear) to some people that want customization built in from low level on we can play and level our characters in different ways even if they have the same class.
VR has not given a definitive opinion other than they do not currently plan to have customization in the game at release. But there will be plenty of time for them to see how the classes play in alpha and decide whether anything more would be nice - and whether they have the extra time before beta to toss it in. This is rarely the kind of change that happens in beta - beta is for final bug killing and polishing usually.
I said it in a different post but I would love to see a AA system that is based on your guild and group instead of just you personally. For the guild part you would get to put the points in yourself but the number of points you have is based on the guild and everyone contributes to them. I think it would stop that feeling of being left behind or starting without any as it would be based on your guild. Plus if you needed to in the future you could just raise it so a new guild starts with so many AA's so if people want to start a new guild they are not super far behind also, it would be much easier to manage then working with each individual person.
For a group system its not so much an AA system but like a friendship system the more you group with people you get maybe combination skills or perks for being grouped together. I think that would be super cool and something I have not seen before it further add to the making friends and sticking with them because it actually benefits to have a static group. Plus if you were in a guild it would make sense to group with as many people in the guild as possible so if you ever raid you have good synergy with any group.
I would be happy with any AA system though, it was one of my favorite parts about Everquest because no matter what I was farming or doing it always felt like I was still gaining something. I swear if half these gear farming games had something like that I would of stuck with them a lot longer because farming the same dungeons for tokens wouldn't of felt quite as pointless if I was gaining something permanent.
Damacon said:I said it in a different post but I would love to see a AA system that is based on your guild and group instead of just you personally. For the guild part you would get to put the points in yourself but the number of points you have is based on the guild and everyone contributes to them. I think it would stop that feeling of being left behind or starting without any as it would be based on your guild. Plus if you needed to in the future you could just raise it so a new guild starts with so many AA's so if people want to start a new guild they are not super far behind also, it would be much easier to manage then working with each individual person.
For a group system its not so much an AA system but like a friendship system the more you group with people you get maybe combination skills or perks for being grouped together. I think that would be super cool and something I have not seen before it further add to the making friends and sticking with them because it actually benefits to have a static group. Plus if you were in a guild it would make sense to group with as many people in the guild as possible so if you ever raid you have good synergy with any group.
I would be happy with any AA system though, it was one of my favorite parts about Everquest because no matter what I was farming or doing it always felt like I was still gaining something. I swear if half these gear farming games had something like that I would of stuck with them a lot longer because farming the same dungeons for tokens wouldn't of felt quite as pointless if I was gaining something permanent.
The downside to this is that it leaves out the people who prefer not to be guilded. For example, I spent most of my time out of guilds in EQ, EQ2, and Vanguard. Not because I wasn't invited to them, but because i prefered to stay out of the politics. It didn't stop me from raiding with somewhat large guilds who I was friends with.
Kalok said:The downside to this is that it leaves out the people who prefer not to be guilded. For example, I spent most of my time out of guilds in EQ, EQ2, and Vanguard. Not because I wasn't invited to them, but because i prefered to stay out of the politics. It didn't stop me from raiding with somewhat large guilds who I was friends with.
I can understand that, I just thought it was a good idea because it kind of solves the other problem of falling behind that so many state when they talk about AA points. But there is always going to be unhappy people regardless that is just humans so I still think my idea would be the best way to implement a system haha.
As for what does Alternate Advancement mean its pretty self explanatory it is a different way to level that is seperate from your normal leveling system. In Everquest it was a large list of abilties,stats, and some other things. In Everquest 2 it was a skill trees alot like World of Warcraft only it wasn't tied to your normal levels.
Kass said:Can someone explain what alternate advancement means?
Sure, Here's some beta screenshots from August 8th, 2004. The first one is from earlier than that, but the rest are from the Omens of War expansion, showing the AA's that Rogues could work towards.
Essentially, you gained XP as normal from grouping, questing, and you could divert a portion (or all) of your XP gained to gaining AA points, instead of levelling. Once you were at max level, by default, all your XP went to AA points. So, you gained the XP, then you spent it on the abilities that were available. There were some common AA's for everyone, then each class and role got other ones. For example, mana users all got some that were similar. They were gated by having to spend points in other areas. Each expansion added a new tab. As a result of requiring hundreds of AA points to spend in order to "max out" your AA's, people either spent an inordinate amount of time grinding group mobs, or Stun-AE'ing down hundreds of mobs at a time, if you had the right classes.
As a result, it wasn't particularly difficult to gain many AA's per hour, if you happened to be one of the classes that were required as part of that... extremely quick XP gaining. If you weren't, it could take many months to gain all your AA's the hard way.
AAs can be good. But they are the same as just raising the level cap in a way. After a point certain AAs will be "required" just like certain levels.
The system has to be designed in a way that provides a minor boost to character power but does not drastically change the character or the class.
And also there "shouldnt" be a reason to include them at launch, there should be enough content to allow the game to thrive.
Porygon said:AAs can be good. But they are the same as just raising the level cap in a way. After a point certain AAs will be "required" just like certain levels.
The system has to be designed in a way that provides a minor boost to character power but does not drastically change the character or the class.
And also there "shouldnt" be a reason to include them at launch, there should be enough content to allow the game to thrive.
Yeah it got to the point that we required most new recruits to have 200+ AA which is sort of insane when you think about it. I will say as an Enchanter Mass Group Buff was amazing during raids. It really sped up the time between wipes. At the same time though it was nice to have something that wasn't just another level increase.
I might like to see something like AA's added eventually. Even if they aren't as powerful/required as they were in Everquest. I never got a character close to max AA's, but I kind of liked that somebody that put way more time into their character was more powerful. I grew to appreciate this more when I played WoW. In that game you could decide to reroll and have a character leveled and geared enough to raid in a couple weeks. This always seemed wrong to me. AA's are one of the things that made me commit to one main character. Personally, I really liked that. I loved my alts, but I was never tempted to abandon the time invested on my main for one of them.
It seems like there may already be things that will distinguish a veteran player from a fresh level 50, other than gear. Depending on how difficult Epic abilities are to acquire. Something like AA's may not be needed in this game. I just wanted to share one positive aspect of them.
Nope said:I might like to see something like AA's added eventually. Even if they aren't as powerful/required as they were in Everquest. I never got a character close to max AA's, but I kind of liked that somebody that put way more time into their character was more powerful. I grew to appreciate this more when I played WoW. In that game you could decide to reroll and have a character leveled and geared enough to raid in a couple weeks. This always seemed wrong to me. AA's are one of the things that made me commit to one main character. Personally, I really liked that. I loved my alts, but I was never tempted to abandon the time invested on my main for one of them.
It seems like there may already be things that will distinguish a veteran player from a fresh level 50, other than gear. Depending on how difficult Epic abilities are to acquire. Something like AA's may not be needed in this game. I just wanted to share one positive aspect of them.
Agreed.
AA where a nice concept and I hope they do them in the future .
BUT !
There needs to be a cap on aa , then perhaps after a certain point another type of progression.
The issue with AA , is after a certain point all you are doing is grinding points. I personally like a combination of systems , perhaps 1 - 2 expansions have AA with lets say 100 AA cap but with 200 AA worth of options for a example that way no two characters are "identical" unless following some preset order and never being able to have them ALL... then the next expac might introduce a Rift style progression web tree as a refrence instead of AA.
This will go along way with replayability .
So coming from a fresh mind that never delt with AA's, it kinda just seems like a cop out. Why not just have that advancement as part of the leveling process, maybe making max level longer to obtain? Whether it is associated with a 'level #' or not, it is essentially the same as continuing to level... so what's it matter? I suppose the big difference would be that you could still meet level requirements for certain content but not have all the skills associated with the AAs, which could be a nice mechanic.
And to another point, why do you feel like you need to continue to advance? You are max level. Dare I say it?!?!? DO YOU FEEL THE NEED TO BE REWARDED FOR EVERYTHING?!!! lol. Half joking. But seriously, it's kinda in line with most of our opinions that modern MMOs have ruined the experience by rewarding every minute spent. Seems slightly hypocrital. Feel free to convince me why I'm wrong.
Final question. What's wrong with being max level and participating in activities for the enjoyment of them, and not solely because they advance another point in some minute upgrade that you grind for weeks for?
Kass said:So coming from a fresh mind that never delt with AA's, it kinda just seems like a cop out. Why not just have that advancement as part of the leveling process, maybe making max level longer to obtain? Whether it is associated with a 'level #' or not, it is essentially the same as continuing to level... so what's it matter? I suppose the big difference would be that you could still meet level requirements for certain content but not have all the skills associated with the AAs, which could be a nice mechanic.
And to another point, why do you feel like you need to continue to advance? You are max level. Dare I say it?!?!? DO YOU FEEL THE NEED TO BE REWARDED FOR EVERYTHING?!!! lol. Half joking. But seriously, it's kinda in line with most of our opinions that modern MMOs have ruined the experience by rewarding every minute spent. Seems slightly hypocrital. Feel free to convince me why I'm wrong.
Final question. What's wrong with being max level and participating in activities for the enjoyment of them, and not solely because they advance another point in some minute upgrade that you grind for weeks for?
If you don't have a way to progress your character, then over time, the 'fun' stuff becomes less fun and it's less likely that you will keep playing. Yes - you can create another toon, however, they will always just hit the same wall. It turns the persistant world game into a "bought it and beat it" kind of game, this is the opposite type of experience that a player/dev should want in a good MMO. You should have something to accomplish for your main character, even if it isn't going from level X to level Y.
Fragile said:If you don't have a way to progress your character, then over time, the 'fun' stuff becomes less fun and it's less likely that you will keep playing. Yes - you can create another toon, however, they will always just hit the same wall. It turns the persistant world game into a "bought it and beat it" kind of game, this is the opposite type of experience that a player/dev should want in a good MMO. You should have something to accomplish for your main character, even if it isn't going from level X to level Y.
An MMO should have so much content to work toward (crafting, items sets, raiding, quest completion, faction reputation) that getting to 100% in everything should be near unobtainable. I'm talking like 1+ year 8 hours a day on a character and there is still something left to max out. And I don't think it's that much to ask for. Just put some grindfest mechanics to hit certain marks of max level quests/reputation and it's basically the same thing... I guess the thing that turns me off is straight exchanging 100% of my EXP for whatever point I want to spend.
TL:DR - After all that I said in above post, I am all for things to work toward after max level, but I don't think it needs to come in the form of an EXP exchange. I think that is a cop out way of going about it.
Kass said:An MMO should have so much content to work toward (crafting, items sets, raiding, quest completion, faction reputation) that getting to 100% in everything should be near unobtainable. I'm talking like 1+ year 8 hours a day on a character and there is still something left to max out. And I don't think it's that much to ask for. Just put some grindfest mechanics to hit certain marks of max level quests/reputation and it's basically the same thing... I guess the thing that turns me off is straight exchanging 100% of my EXP for whatever point I want to spend.
TL:DR - After all that I said in above post, I am all for things to work toward after max level, but I don't think it needs to come in the form of an EXP exchange. I think that is a cop out way of going about it.
Every game maker thinks they will release their MMO with plenty of content, and come to find people are complaining they have nothing to do six months later. Gauging the speed and capabilities of the player base is quite difficult. As well, not every player has an interest in a good portion of the content you release, so they end up maybe doing only 60% of what is created (not everyone has an interest in crafting or doing faction building). Keeping in mind as well, player’s digest content at about 10% of the development time (PvE). Meaning, if it took a month to develop, then most players will complete the game content in about 3 days. So, to have enough content to last for over a year requires a vast team of developers, time and money. Putting in something a simple as AAs, provides a carrot on a stick at minimal time and investment cost, and keeps players occupied.
"I guess the thing that turns me off is straight exchanging 100% of my EXP for whatever point I want to spend." - When you are max level, and experience is no longer raising your level, what would you like for the experience to go towards? That was one of the great things about AAs. When you reached max level, all that time and energy you put towards doing things in the world, like helping a friend camp an item, you were always getting something for your time. As well, there was that incentive to keep playing a character because you always had more to accomplish.
I am in the camp hoping for a form of AAs or something similar, as getting the hand full of points and finally being able to buy that certain AA and then seeing the improvements, although usually very minimal until you got the full complement of AAs like 3 or four tiers of Combat Fury, was always satisfying.
I have been thinking about it and a lot of people say AAs are just a cop out where you could just add more levels or gear. I don't think this is actually true if you look at the AA system from Everquest the majority advancements were passive things that further improved your skills and character. This is nothing like leveling and it gave you some choice of what you needed first, it was a brilliant system that kept me happy no matter what boring thing I was doing in the game.
The other problem is you will end up leaving people behind or casuals will need them to raid and be left out. This would also be easy to fix if you made a system like I was talking about where AAs are gained through the guild instead of the indvidual that way people with less time would still have the same amount of AAs. Plus it would be easier just to start guilds with a certain amount of AAs in the future instead of giving each indvidual person a certain amount of AAs when they start.
What I don't want is an AA system like EQ2 it really was a cop out just being skill trees which you could of had at any time. It was also over within a couple weeks so it didn't really add anything to the game. A system like original Everquest with a ton of AAs would be the way to go to extend the life of the game. I feel the people who can nay say that only have two examples of AAs and just because those systems might not of been the best form of it does not mean it can never work thats shallow thinking.
Falling behind is inevitable regardless on whether it is AAs, levels or gear. Games of progression are just that, progression and people progress at different rates. Therefore, some will fall behind. One could try to eliminate this, but I think you would end up with a game that really isn't progression based anymore, or the progression is horizontal, which in my opinion is pointless and of no interest to me.
Not sure I like the idea of my progression being in the hands of others (Guild). I would prefer to be the master of my on fate and decide when I want to press for AA points or whatever manner comes into play and when I just want to relax and take it easy.
Love AA. Love it more than raising level caps because it doesn't lead to mudflation and significant dumbing down of older content. AA in a slow xp oriented gain is a great way to increase player and class individualization while not trivializing content. I'd go the AA route over raising the level range for as long as I could.
Roxxers said:Falling behind is inevitable regardless on whether it is AAs, levels or gear. Games of progression are just that, progression and people progress at different rates. Therefore, some will fall behind. One could try to eliminate this, but I think you would end up with a game that really isn't progression based anymore, or the progression is horizontal, which in my opinion is pointless and of no interest to me.
Not sure I like the idea of my progression being in the hands of others (Guild). I would prefer to be the master of my on fate and decide when I want to press for AA points or whatever manner comes into play and when I just want to relax and take it easy.
I would tend to agree overall if they just took the system straight from Everquest I would be perfectly fine with that, but I do think its fair to say that AAs can really hurt people who don't have a bunch of time. Groups wont take you,raids wont want you, and only because you can't afford to play as much as someone else thats unfair. I still think you should be able to control what you put the points into I just think with them coming from your guild it would help people who may be good at the game but not have a lot of time to play.
Another idea might be some sort of mentor system where you share some AA experience with someone you are mentoring to help out people who might not have as much time. That way its your own personal experience but if you have a friend who doesn't have as much time you can help them keep up.