well wow sharding basically evens out what a person sees, so there isnt overcrowding of certain areas, but at the same time it means people are right next to you that you might not ever meet.
I have not heard any details of this occurring, nor does it seem to fit with what i have seen as the agenda they wish to accomplish. Vanguard did incorporate the ability to split an environment to avoid over population of an area, so they may have someting similar, but I would imagine all within the zone can interact and work together.
Someone may have a link or details addressing this specifically.
Riqq said:well wow sharding basically evens out what a person sees, so there isnt overcrowding of certain areas, but at the same time it means people are right next to you that you might not ever meet.
You don't have that to worry about. Joppa already confirmed a few times and on the recent stream that that will not be in Pantheon.
Just wondering, when did shards come around? I hear this a lot not sure what it really is. I never played WoW, was this aspect introduced then?
Seems pretty definitive with answer, not much fumbling around on how to answer that question.
Also right after Joppa answered that Ben broke the mez!!! I'm not grouping with that guy for sure. Hah.
Here's the original post from Kilsin, from: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1348/instanced-versus-non-instanced-areas/view/post_id/114404
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I said sharding - like in VG APW - is a possibility for us down the track if overcrowding or respawn issues arise, I did not ever confirm that there would be sharding in Pantheon. Please don't spread misinformation as it only confuses people and causes unnecessary angst.
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(and then further down the thread)
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For clarification, the specific example of sharding was the VG Ancient Port Warehouse example, where there were 6 shards, all were open world copies of the exact same multi-level dungeon, anyone could enter and exit any shard, at any time without restrictions, it was not a locked instance to just one raid or group, it was just 6 mirrored version of the exact same thing, it worked very well to handle overcrowding so multiple guilds could raid at the same time in different shards, sometimes eevn multiple in the same shards depending on which wing/area they were raiding and what bosses they went after as there were a lot.
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Essentially, in this context, Kilsin's use of the term sharding is like EQ1 /picks (from /pickzone). A zone copy that everyone can use. The rest of the thread highlights the concerns people had. The primary issue is that, given this is a possibility, it may end up in Pantheon. They have never said "no instances, ever". They have said there may be some instances, and some temporary zone copies to handle overcrowding, if desired or required.
The forum won't let me add a link to an edited post, so just wanted to add this as well..
This is not Phasing , exactly, from wow, that's a silghtly different implemention of a similar end result, depending on the magntiude and context of the scenario. That description is deliberately vague because a phase can be a few square meters in game, or an entire area, or anything in between and can apply to individual users, all players, or anything in between.
Put another way, sharding or picks are like phases, and could be used to create shards or picks, based on the above comments. The primary difference is the intent of the mechanic. Picks or sharding (as used above) is not meant to be a temporary or permanent quest result changing in filtered client-server visibility. Yet, strictly speaking, if you were inclined, Phasing could be used in that fashion, it just never has been, as far as I know.
vjek said:Here's the original post from Kilsin, from: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1348/instanced-versus-non-instanced-areas/view/post_id/114404
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I said sharding - like in VG APW - is a possibility for us down the track if overcrowding or respawn issues arise, I did not ever confirm that there would be sharding in Pantheon. Please don't spread misinformation as it only confuses people and causes unnecessary angst.
...
(and then further down the thread)
...
For clarification, the specific example of sharding was the VG Ancient Port Warehouse example, where there were 6 shards, all were open world copies of the exact same multi-level dungeon, anyone could enter and exit any shard, at any time without restrictions, it was not a locked instance to just one raid or group, it was just 6 mirrored version of the exact same thing, it worked very well to handle overcrowding so multiple guilds could raid at the same time in different shards, sometimes eevn multiple in the same shards depending on which wing/area they were raiding and what bosses they went after as there were a lot.
--
Essentially, in this context, Kilsin's use of the term sharding is like EQ1 /picks (from /pickzone). A zone copy that everyone can use. The rest of the thread highlights the concerns people had. The primary issue is that, given this is a possibility, it may end up in Pantheon. They have never said "no instances, ever". They have said there may be some instances, and some temporary zone copies to handle overcrowding, if desired or required.
This is outdated info vjek. Just the other day Joppa confirmed shards/picks/mirrored zones will not be in Pantheon. I believe someone linked it above.
I was glad that Alex asked him to clarify after the initial response.
Shards are a rather old MMO concept that may predate WoW. When a zone is too crowded to be reasonably playable you have two or more versions of the zone with some players in one and some in another.
Typically you freely allow transfers between shards so that people can play with friends.
Typically you do not bifurcate chat - there is a unitary chat channel that includes anything said by anyone in any shard.
The advantages are overwhelming - you reduce or avoid lag and crashes if it is done properly and keep a zone from being so crowded that players need to get a number and stand in line to kill a mob. Overcrowding would be especially devastating in a game that does not allow multiple players to share credit for killing the same mob. In a game with first-to-engage rules any ranged class would have an overwhelming advantage. In a game with most-damage-done rules dps classes would have an overwhelming advantage.
The problem of overcrowding is by far the worst in starter zones before people get to spread out - in the early days or weeks of the game. It is by far the worst in the early days with a flood of people checking the game out - some of whom will stay but many will not.
VR has said they will balance server size (number of characters allowed on the server) to keep sizes near an optimum amount. But they cannot do this if Pantheon attracts - as we hope it *will* - large numbers of people checking the game out. Not until after the initial rush calms down. It is a near certainty that if they have "optimum size" servers on day one these servers will be half empty after a month. Leading to early mergers and the appearance that the game is a devastating failure. Which can become a self-fulfilling prophecy even though entirely inaccurate.
One very obvious solution is to balance server size based on the numbers you expect to have in a month - and use shards for the starter zones if they get painfully overcrowded before then.
Shards are sub-optimum - they divide the population. Though not very much if chat is not bifurcated and transfers between shards are freely available. But they are a better solution than allowing massive overcrowding - driving all but the most dedicated away from the game. First impressions are critical and while having a lively and active world is important, having one that doesn't have 50 characters competing for every pig may be even more important.
Shards are a better solution than having far too many servers and then combining them. Apart from the horrible word of mouth that server merges so soon after release would bring, we all know the problems with names (including guild names), storage and the like merges cause.
Thus it seems highly likely that Pantheon will adopt shard technology for temporary use when particular zones would otherwise become unplayable. As Kratuk indicates it seems highly unlikely that shards will be a regular feature of Panthon outside of alleviating temporary problems.
I believe the links above reflect that VR does not currently intend to use shards on an ongoing basis. I do not believe that VR has ruled out the temporary use of shards especially for starter zones in the highly atypical conditions that will prevail during the days or weeks immediately after release.
philo said:This is outdated info vjek. Just the other day Joppa confirmed shards/picks/mirrored zones will not be in Pantheon. I believe someone linked it above.
Yet, the quote, from and by Kilsin, could be edited to reflect that, today. :) What I mean by saying that is, Kilsin should edit that post to reflect the current/updated information, to prevent it from being quoted/used in the future.
As they aren't going with picks, I'm very interested in hearing what they plan on doing when a zone reaches 200%-500% of it's intended capacity for players, and there are no mobs available because all the respawns are taken?
Exactly like the situation in EQ1 in, say, lower guk, during the "bad old days" when a naked level 1 woodelf bard could safely walk from the dead side zone in to the king room without seeing a single enemy. Or solb from the zone in to Nagafen.
Sharding is not an MMO concept.
Sharding is a technical term used in database design (google it) that started to get used when instancing became a thing in gaming.
MMO players with non-technical understanding heard the word and made it synonymous with 'instancing', but others even more confused, misconstrued it to mean multiple servers, so it has gotten to be a badly used term for MMO's having either multiple instances or servers. It has also taken on other names now such as 'phasing' and others.
Generally sharding just is another way of saying 'instancing'. Like what BDO does when you can just instantly hop from instance to instance to farm something or avoid players. But this 'sharding'/instancing functionality existed back in EQ2 at launch, as that game is 100% instanced (except in main cities) and you could switch between instances from a simple drop-down list.
To the best of my understanding Pantheon will not have shards, instances, phases, etc. Just totally separate persistent worlds.
zewtastic said: Sharding is not an MMO concept.. ...
Yet, it has been around MMO's for quite some time. :)
Ok I got it now.
Sharding is something you do in your pants and is very embarrassing.
But really, shards are copies of zones. I always called them instances, this clears it up.
I can see the benefits to this type of system, but from what I have seen and heard Joppa say it will not be in Panthoen.
But just to stir the pot. I could MAYBE see this in the cities? No mobs, just big, busy, stock pile of players, bustling cities?
Most of us consider an instance to be a personal dungeon or something very similar. An adventure area where only you or only your group can adventure for a while, without competition/interference from others.
Most of us coinsider instances to be a bad thing isolating the player or the group from other players. Some of us disagree and see benefits to instances such as allowing important content to be done by everyone and not monopolized by the most powerful and aggressive. At this point VR is siding with anti-instance opinion but it is far from impossible that they will use instances in a very limited manner where they see a compelling reason. Such as telling a story that would be distorted or ruined if other players could interfere.
Technically a shard may be a type of instance - but at least in the MMO community it is used more often to describe multiple versions of the same area used typically to avoid overcrowding.
((sniff) (sniff) Watch what you do in those pants! ((sniff)
I know they have said they don't plan on sharding, but I don't think it should be looked at as a bad thing if it is needed. Most MMO's have serious problems on launch and if Pantheon ends up with 10 times the amount of players they were expecting it could cause some serious problems. It won't be as bad at starter areas cause they are split up but there is going to be bottleneck points and no one wants to be in dungeons with 80+ groups to the point where you can't even find a single mob haha. I rather they have shards at launch and be prepared for the huge amount of people that might be joining then to lose the majority of their players because of overcrowding. Eventually things will sort themselves out like in all MMO's but launches are crucial if you want to hold on to more players in the end.
I realize this is just speculation and the game could have none of these problems depending on how everything is structured and if the amount of players at launch far exceeds expectations ( which almost always happens). I just wouldn't mind countermeasures for this type of thing if they were needed having a few sharded dungeons or bottleneck areas would not ruin my whole reason for living like it might for some people lol.
vjek said:zewtastic said: Sharding is not an MMO concept.. ...Yet, it has been around MMO's for quite some time. :)
Did you not read my post?
zewtastic said:vjek said:zewtastic said: Sharding is not an MMO concept.. ...Yet, it has been around MMO's for quite some time. :)
Did you not read my post?
https://www.raphkoster.com/2009/01/08/database-sharding-came-from-uo/
The term sharding came from a lore excuse to create instances of the world I thought.
vjek said:philo said:This is outdated info vjek. Just the other day Joppa confirmed shards/picks/mirrored zones will not be in Pantheon. I believe someone linked it above.Yet, the quote, from and by Kilsin, could be edited to reflect that, today. :) What I mean by saying that is, Kilsin should edit that post to reflect the current/updated information, to prevent it from being quoted/used in the future.
Ah ok, gotcha.
That happens pretty frequently around here where older "official" info is quoted that has been changed.. I guess we can only only hope for the new forums that has been talked about for years...or at least the updated FAQ that is supposed to be coming might alleviate some of the confusion.
SoWplz said: Just wondering, when did shards come around? I hear this a lot not sure what it really is.
From my understanding, the word 'Shard' was used back in Ulitma Online to denote separate 'servers' that players choose when creating their characters to play on. They used this word for 2 reasons.
1) For Role Play purposes. Your character would understand that he/she was living on a 'shard' of the universe and that there were many copies of the universe, each being a separate 'Shard' of a grander Multi-verse.
2) Because the term 'server' usually refers to a physical machine, and because of the way the game was coded, either multiple Shards could exist on 1 physical server machine, or multiple server machines might be required to host 1 Shard.
Later on, as new games were created, they decided not to always have different server choices at your login and character creation. Rather they would put everyone in a Region on the same server and then separate players on a zone by zone basis into instances of that zone.
For example if you entered a Zone called 'The Plains' the game would put people in 'The Plains_01' until a max number of players was reached (so the game didn't start to lag with too many people in one area), and then new people entering the zone would go to 'The Plains_02' which would then fill up and a new 'The Plains_03' would be created. Some games who used this type of instancing would lock you to the instance you were put in and some gave you the option to choose to switch over to any 'non-full' instance, perhaps to meet up with friends who were in a different instance.
These different versions of zones were basically instances, but many players would refer to them as 'Shards'. And thus the term 'Sharding' started becoming used for this technique of forced zone instancing.
Later on, some MMO's started to take this to the next level as they were able to create mini-instances in a very localized area within a zone. So as you came into that localized area you could be 'phased' into an instance of that localized area and it would appear that other players in the area would disappear. These 'phased instances' could be triggered by flags on your character such as level, or having an item, or having finished or not finished a questline, etc... Once you left that localized area of the zone you would be re-phased back to the main instance and all the other players would re-appear around you.
Since this 'phasing' was just a mini version of zone instancing, again players often would use the term 'sharding' to describe this phasing system.
Summary:
Players use the word Shard or Sharding to describe several different systems.
1) The Server or Shard you choose to create your character and play on.
2) The version of a zone (ie instance) your character gets put into when you enter that zone.
3) A mini-instanced area you phase into as your character walks through a zone.
These are totally different concepts and it is what causes confusion when people use these terms, since unless there is context it can be hard to know which of these systems the person is referring to when they use the word Shard or Sharding.
Riqq in his origional Post in this thread is actually referring to the way World of Warcraft used all 3 of these Technologies to actually merge multiple servers together without actually merging them into one Server choice when you log in. So you would still choose your Server to create your character on, but when you enter a zone you were put in an instance of that zone that could include players from many different servers. You could also join a group with players on any server and it would phase you over into the instance of that zone the group leader was currently in.
His worry was that this linking of all the servers using cross server 'instancing' would harm the social aspect of the game as many feel it did with World of Warcraft.
The answer of course is that Pantheon will not be using this cross server instancing, and in fact will not be using instancing in any way.