I decided to make a thread about item drops, because for me, it is an absolute deal breaker.
Here are a few things I want to see:
- There needs to be RARE items in the game. I'm talking <5% drops off bosses or <.01% off random mobs. Let alone rare mob spawns that have a chance at a very rare drop. Not everyone is entitled to get the item they want just because they put the time in.
- If the dungeon boss drops turn into everyone getting some sort of universal exchangable item to get their class specific gear, I will probably not continue to play this game.
- Players should get to decide who gets what item. Meaning, loot priority should not automatically allow one player to have priority based on class/build/level etc. There should be ways to be greedy and take more than your fair share, or screw over your teammates from loot... (edit: just to be clear, I'm not saying my mission is to go around "stealing" loot, but I don't want the game auto assigned loot based on class/build in any way shape or form). Although I know many casual players would disagree, I think it's those variables that add to the excitement of the game. They help fuel positive/negative reputation, and they provide some great stories of heartbreak and success. I am more open on this subject, but the first two points are pretty big deal breakers for me.
Anyways, curious on others thoughts.
Kass said:- There needs to be RARE items in the game. I'm talking <5% drops off bosses or <.01% off random mobs. Let alone rare mob spawns that have a chance at a very rare drop. Not everyone is entitled to get the item they want just because they put the time in.
- If the dungeon boss drops turn into everyone getting some sort of universal exchangable item to get their class specific gear, I will probably not continue to play this game.
- Players should get to decide who gets what item. Meaning, loot priority should not automatically allow one player to have priority based on class/build/level etc. There should be ways to be greedy and take more than your fair share, or screw over your teammates from loot... Although I know many casual players would disagree, I think it's those variables that add to the excitement of the game. They help fuel positive/negative reputation, and they provide some great stories of heartbreak and success. I am more open on this subject, but the first two points are pretty big deal breakers for me.
I agree 100% and really couldn’t agree with you more. Yes, we need rare items and ultra rare items from rare mobs etc. This is a must (to add to the Pantheon diversity). Now, being the kind of player I am I would help a group member with need before greed, but I would also realize that I am not entitled to such cooperation either.
Kass said:
- Players should get to decide who gets what item. Meaning, loot priority should not automatically allow one player to have priority based on class/build/level etc.
100%
Everyone needs coin. Repair bills, new gear, food and drink, dropped spells, all comes down to coin. Greed before Need, clicking a plate class on character select shouldn't entitle you to guaranteed loot if plate drops. You can choose as an individual in the group to give it to the plate class if you win it, but it shouldn't be role based privilege, and nobody should be made to feel bad for keeping what they rightfully win. Kinda one of the building blocks of my guild.
The only thing I have against super rare mobs with super rare drops is that it can turn into a gold farmer haven, I remember FFXI and how bad that game was with it rare mobs that had like 50 gold farmers surrounding it lol. Its one things if its a super rare mobs that isn't static to any one area or just a complete low drop rate item off a bunch of different enemies. But if it is off a boss mob that spawns in pretty much the same area I rather the item be no drop so you don't have people abusing it for cash, but thats just my opinion maybe other people like gold farmer run economies haha.
I would put myself in the completely opposite category.
Ultra rare Named Items of Power just feeds the Best in Slot mentality and item merry-go-round of each content expansion that is a bigger contributor to the degradation of MMOs over time than instancing or global auction houses.
Named items should be lore based items and “Lore” tagged items. They should also be very rare long chain quest rewards or short term quest items. All the rest of the items in the game should be craftable with the right optional ingredients added to the various construction stages. Now you can have rare and powerful optional materials drop or be salvaged from rare dropped items but even those should be one of several options to achieve the same final result on a crafted item.
This is of course assuming a robust, interactive, time consuming, and highly customize-able crafting system. Making a fully completed item from raw materials and non processed optional magical components could take 5-12 mini games to complete and a similar number of minutes in total. Low quality results or outright failures and the subsequent salvaging and restarting could double that time.
Either way though I think it is a mistake not to have durability in the game that will eventually permanently destroy items. While repairing items may not be “fun” it is a necessary evil to have a built in unavoidable item removal mechanic in the item economy or the market will flood with items over time. Loosing ultra rare items to item decay is one of the reasons people fight against implementing item decay and that in turn reinforces why encouraging collecting full sets of ultra rare items is bad for the long term health of a game.
Damacon said:The only thing I have against super rare mobs with super rare drops is that it can turn into a gold farmer haven, I remember FFXI and how bad that game was with it rare mobs that had like 50 gold farmers surrounding it lol. Its one things if its a super rare mobs that isn't static to any one area or just a complete low drop rate item off a bunch of different enemies. But if it is off a boss mob that spawns in pretty much the same area I rather the item be no drop so you don't have people abusing it for cash, but thats just my opinion maybe other people like gold farmer run economies haha.
Rare mobs can't be on timers and locations that are predictable. I remember a rare mob that spawned on average once a week at a random spot in the zone and looked very similiar to other birds in that area. It was a slightly different color scheme and had around a 25% chance of a very strong weapon.
When the variables are more random it's less enticing for the farmers to camp. If they know it spawns every 24hrs at the same spot, I'm not a fan.
Kass said:- Players should get to decide who gets what item. Meaning, loot priority should not automatically allow one player to have priority based on class/build/level etc. There should be ways to be greedy and take more than your fair share, or screw over your teammates from loot... Although I know many casual players would disagree, I think it's those variables that add to the excitement of the game. They help fuel positive/negative reputation, and they provide some great stories of heartbreak and success. I am more open on this subject, but the first two points are pretty big deal breakers for me.
Anyways, curious on others thoughts.
I'm perfectly fine with your first two points, but you lost me on this last one. Being a rude in life is perfectly fine if you like risking getting punched in the face, but hiding behind your monitor and treating people badly isn't same. Specially in a paid game environment. You may enjoy being cruel or greedy to people in games, but you can't romanticize that bad behavior to become some cool story that people will somehow remember fondly.
Roleplay the bad guy it if you like, I don't care, but I definitely wouldn't want mechanics built to help this along. This also has nothing to do with being casual, just a good person. Greed, Need or Pass works fine.
Trasak said:Ultra rare Named Items of Power just feeds the Best in Slot mentality and item merry-go-round of each content expansion that is a bigger contributor to the degradation of MMOs over time than instancing or global auction houses.
I disagree. If they are rare enough, not everyone will have them. You could try for your best in slot item off the final boss of a dungeon 10 or 20 times and still never get it. By the time you run that 10+ times, it's probably a lower level item than what you want anyways.
A big differientator in the whole best in slot metality is attributes. I remember in Vanilla WoW there were 15+ attributes and plenty of items were viable with different builds/skills. When they dumbed down all the attributes to like 4 total and all items did the same thing, then there was clearly one 'best' item. It's a whole different discussion, but I don't think having rare items negatively impact the game to any degree in the way you state.
I think how content expansion items are handled has nothing to do with my original points. There are other things that could be done in that area as well.
Bronsun said:Roleplay the bad guy it if you like, I don't care, but I definitely wouldn't want mechanics built to help this along. This also has nothing to do with being casual, just a good person. Greed, Need or Pass works fine.
Ya, I can see why it came accross that way, but I would never be the player that "steals" an item from someone more deserving. Need before greed works fine, but some games don't let you "need" an item if you don't meet certain parameters. I don't want the game telling me if I'm allowed to "need" it... that's what I was trying to say. But if someone wants to Need on an item their class can't even use, they should have the freedom to do that imo.
Another thing I am hoping for with rare items or just certain items in general is for them to have clicky effects like in EQ1 so they keep being useful even way into the future. I remember having a ring that had a see invisable buff clicky on it and casters/healers had a lot of free spells they could use on certain pieces of their equipment. If you are going to make something close to impossible to aquire it better be useful for a very long time if not forever. If there is one thing I hate more than anything its when you farm a super rare item for like months and then down the road they give you a item thats pretty much the same thing that is super easy to get talk about a punch in the face.
Damacon said:Another thing I am hoping for with rare items or just certain items in general is for them to have clicky effects like in EQ1 so they keep being useful even way into the future. I remember having a ring that had a see invisable buff clicky on it and casters/healers had a lot of free spells they could use on certain pieces of their equipment. If you are going to make something close to impossible to aquire it better be useful for a very long time if not forever. If there is one thing I hate more than anything its when you farm a super rare item for like months and then down the road they give you a item thats pretty much the same thing that is super easy to get talk about a punch in the face.
I always thought those sort of items were cool, and they are worth holding onto for their effect even after there stats become lackluster.
It doesn't always have to have combat or environmental benefit. It could just have a cool effect to show off in town.
Kass said:I decided to make a thread about item drops, because for me, it is an absolute deal breaker.
Here are a few things I want to see:
- There needs to be RARE items in the game. I'm talking <5% drops off bosses or <.01% off random mobs. Let alone rare mob spawns that have a chance at a very rare drop. Not everyone is entitled to get the item they want just because they put the time in.
- If the dungeon boss drops turn into everyone getting some sort of universal exchangable item to get their class specific gear, I will probably not continue to play this game.
- Players should get to decide who gets what item. Meaning, loot priority should not automatically allow one player to have priority based on class/build/level etc. There should be ways to be greedy and take more than your fair share, or screw over your teammates from loot... (edit: just to be clear, I'm not saying my mission is to go around "stealing" loot, but I don't want the game auto assigned loot based on class/build in any way shape or form). Although I know many casual players would disagree, I think it's those variables that add to the excitement of the game. They help fuel positive/negative reputation, and they provide some great stories of heartbreak and success. I am more open on this subject, but the first two points are pretty big deal breakers for me.
Anyways, curious on others thoughts.
my thoughts
1- yes, 'rare' and 'very rare' items should exist as boss drops. I think it is a good staple of MMOs, not sure how can you do otherwise.
common items are purchased from vendors, and uncommon items are product of the crafting proffesion (crafting should also create rare items but not very rare, unless the recipy is a 'very rare' boss drop itself).
non boss mobs can have common and uncommon items on loot list.
if you want to be rewarded for your time and dedication, then your path is crafting and not boss hunting, boss hunting is for gamblers and adrenaline junkies.
2- wholeheartedly agree, no token or alternative currency drops from mobs or bosses. thats lore breaking, what kind of ogre warlord will have city faction tokens in his bag?
3- not sure about that, if the items are not 'bound', then yes even if somebody else got the item, he can pass it to you. but if the items are bound, then you must have automatic need/greed roll on drop and if your class can't use the item then the need roll is disabled.
Damacon said:The only thing I have against super rare mobs with super rare drops is that it can turn into a gold farmer haven, I remember FFXI and how bad that game was with it rare mobs that had like 50 gold farmers surrounding it lol. Its one things if its a super rare mobs that isn't static to any one area or just a complete low drop rate item off a bunch of different enemies. But if it is off a boss mob that spawns in pretty much the same area I rather the item be no drop so you don't have people abusing it for cash, but thats just my opinion maybe other people like gold farmer run economies haha.
Designing game mechanics to stop or limit gold farmers is a terrible idea. There will always be gold farmers, find a way to stop the transactions, not the farming.
Porygon said:Designing game mechanics to stop or limit gold farmers is a terrible idea. There will always be gold farmers, find a way to stop the transactions, not the farming.
I disagree, making super rare items that can be exploited for the profit of the few at the expense of the many is just bad game design. I don't mind competition it adds to the spice of life but you should be able to at least have a chance to aquire an item. That's why those games that had super rare spawn bosses with rare items moved away from them in the future. I am not talking like open world raid bosses either thats a whole different ball game that you need skill and people to even take down. But mobs that can be farmed by one person or a small group that have something that everyone wants are just asking to be exploited.
Damacon said:Porygon said:Designing game mechanics to stop or limit gold farmers is a terrible idea. There will always be gold farmers, find a way to stop the transactions, not the farming.
I disagree, making super rare items that can be exploited for the profit of the few at the expense of the many is just bad game design. I don't mind competition it adds to the spice of life but you should be able to at least have a chance to aquire an item. That's why those games that had super rare spawn bosses with rare items moved away from them in the future. I am not talking like open world raid bosses either thats a whole different ball game that you need skill and people to even take down. But mobs that can be farmed by one person or a small group that have something that everyone wants are just asking to be exploited.
Yes definitely. Exploitation would happen.
Also: @Porygon I disagree with you.
Lewtz said:How rare we talking like eq1 wait 3 days for the gnome to spawn for your orb or like eq2 weekly raid mobs and all names can drop different tiers of rewards.
Pretty sure the original post was close to the EQ1 style with just regular named mobs that are super rare with rare drops and just a really rare chance for a rare item to drop more like original WoW.
Porygon said:Designing game mechanics to stop or limit gold farmers is a terrible idea. There will always be gold farmers, find a way to stop the transactions, not the farming.
FFXIV did that. It sucked, and made player trades and mails TERRIBLE. Probably they found the worst way to do it (limit trades betwee players to 1 million per trade, same for mails, and no mails to people not in your friendlist), but in the end it can hinder regular players, but bots beeing automated care little about repetitive actions and such.
Damacon said:Porygon said:Designing game mechanics to stop or limit gold farmers is a terrible idea. There will always be gold farmers, find a way to stop the transactions, not the farming.
I disagree, making super rare items that can be exploited for the profit of the few at the expense of the many is just bad game design. I don't mind competition it adds to the spice of life but you should be able to at least have a chance to aquire an item. That's why those games that had super rare spawn bosses with rare items moved away from them in the future. I am not talking like open world raid bosses either thats a whole different ball game that you need skill and people to even take down. But mobs that can be farmed by one person or a small group that have something that everyone wants are just asking to be exploited.
So I'm really confused. Are you against rare items because they lead to players (whether gold farmers or not) farming them. Or are you against rare items because they take a significant commitment to farm?
Because you say that you want everyone to have the chance at an item... well that's exactly what a system such as MDD (most damage done accomplishes. If there is someone who is "farming" an item. Just go compete for it.
If you are literally just trying to eliminate rare items because people farm them.... theres always going to be an item that's more valuable than another. You're not going to eliminate the "gold farming" mentality just by taking away rare items.
Porygon said:
So I'm really confused. Are you against rare items because they lead to players (whether gold farmers or not) farming them. Or are you against rare items because they take a significant commitment to farm?
Because you say that you want everyone to have the chance at an item... well that's exactly what a system such as MDD (most damage done accomplishes. If there is someone who is "farming" an item. Just go compete for it.
If you are literally just trying to eliminate rare items because people farm them.... theres always going to be an item that's more valuable than another. You're not going to eliminate the "gold farming" mentality just by taking away rare items.
And we are back full circle haha! I am not against rare items I just think you should make them no drop if they are that rare or find a way to make them worthless to farm but good to have, you get what I am saying? There will be plenty of regular items or crafting materials that people can farm for money that will not be extremely rare. But if you are going to put extremely good gear on rare mobs with a rare drop rate at least make it so the same people are not farming it. Still may take you forever to obtain because there will always be people camping it but it won't be people who already have it. If its going to be something extremely rare that drops off a bunch of mobs of the same faction and it isn't any specific mob by all means have it tradeable.
But any game that had super rare bosses on a timer with rare loot just ended up being farmed for money and no one enjoyed it. That is why all the games that did that considered it a failure idea and stoped doing it in future content thus like I said bad game design.
Damacon said:But any game that had super rare bosses on a timer with rare loot just ended up being farmed for money and no one enjoyed it. That is why all the games that did that considered it a failure idea and stoped doing it in future content thus like I said bad game design.
Can you give a brief example?
Porygon said:Can you give a brief example?
FFXI when it first was released had tons of rare bosses that were just out in the middle of zones you didn't have to go deep into a dungeon they spawned in the same place on a timer depending when they were killed. So gold farmers with targeting mods would have like 30 guys at every camp since the objective wasn't even so much the item but that they could keep the economy under their control. That way you almost had to buy gold or farm forever to be able to even progress in the game it was horrible. But as new content came out they made it so you would go into little arena type instances for rare gear or it was no drop to stop the rigged economy. That's not to say gold farmers didn't find a way to continue to exist they always will, but not being under their thumb helped new players continue to play the game even till now.
Everquest had those problems as well it wasn't quite as bad because the mobs were well placed and there just wasn't anywhere near as many people who play that game as games nowadays. Not to mention gold farmers didn't even really exist when it first came out, but even still they switched away from the model to make things more accessible to players. After the planes of power expansion they made it easier for everyone to get gear and not just the few so that people felt like they were making progress with their limited time. Needless to say this was more of a change to help people who wern't hardcore raiders get some gear and not as much a rare spawn problem but that was changed also at this time. But it was all for the same reason of you need throw people a bone or they will just quit the game because only a few people get to have fun. Now I am not saying everyone should be able to get everything be it skill level or even amount of time but it should at least be a fair system that isn't exploitable.
zewtastic said:I guess the concepts of Rare and Ultra Rare need to be defined.
Regardless of how it is defined, nothing ends up being rare for long. That's the great thing about percentage based drop rates as even with a 1% chance for something to drop over time 100% of the people who want it will get it.