Forums » Pantheon Classes

The Hybrid Slippery Slope

    • 245 posts
    June 8, 2021 3:05 AM PDT

    Enchanter, Bard, Necro can be designed to deal around 50% of what a DPS does when doing DPS and not CC.

    Then their buffs provide a 20%-25% damage increase for any physical or caster DPS in the group.

    • So when there are no mobs to lock down your group with a support class essentially has the 6th person providing + 110-125% DPS from their own DPS + group buffs.
    • When they focus on CC you have + 60-75% due to buffs only, but now from your healer/tank's points of view you may have 50-75% reduced incoming damage than if you just brought 4 DPS and tried to burn everything down.
    • 24 posts
    June 8, 2021 6:24 AM PDT

    Ezrael said:

    Enchanter, Bard, Necro can be designed to deal around 50% of what a DPS does when doing DPS and not CC.

    Then their buffs provide a 20%-25% damage increase for any physical or caster DPS in the group.

    • So when there are no mobs to lock down your group with a support class essentially has the 6th person providing + 110-125% DPS from their own DPS + group buffs.
    • When they focus on CC you have + 60-75% due to buffs only, but now from your healer/tank's points of view you may have 50-75% reduced incoming damage than if you just brought 4 DPS and tried to burn everything down.

    I've never played an Ench or Bard so I won't go over them but for Necro this would be an immediate turn off for 2 reasons.

    1. Necro historically is a pet class so then you run into the issue of "who does most of the damage?" If the necro does most, why summon the pet except as a personal tank? If the pet does most, what prevents your gameplay from being ungodly levels of boring (See: EQ Magician)? If they do equal, what keeps it from being babysitting job for the healer (you now have an extra AI dps who can't instinctively run out of fire and will need healing as well on top of the necro who's most likely using their Lich abilities to keep their mana at a reasonable level)?
    2. Keeping them at half damage as a wizard (75% with their buffs) makes the first reason seem like a terrible choice. Why would I play this complicated class if im not going to kill anything at an even remotely acceptable pace and even slower before it "turns on" at level whatever?

    In class fantasy, the Necromancer is delving into the dark and taboo for power rather than seeking it through personal growth or extensive research. Why, then, would their strength be less than others? In EQ, the necro could nuke, DoT, drain, fear, snare, root, charm and utterly destroy undead, debuff, buff themselves or their pet, trade HP for mana, and transfer health or mana to other party members. While they can basically "do anything" when it comes to magic, they're safest just dotting up, using a CC, and letting Mr. Bones take care of the big monster. You can nuke, but its horribly mana inefficient for ~100 less damage of a Wizard of equal level (even less when we get to the 60s). But damn is it just cool! You can heal but it requires your own blood.

    The price for all of this is volatility. Wizards, enchanters, Summoners, Priests, they all use mana as a resource. But you use Mana and Health and a bad move can end up with a corpse run and that volatility makes them even more fun. So yeah, Necro as a CC class makes sense as that was one of their strongest areas in the games Pantheon is taking heavy inspiration from but to suggest they should be doing piddly damage as an exchange would be to forget what makes the Necro a Necro/

    • 245 posts
    June 8, 2021 9:36 PM PDT

    50% of a DPS class' damage output and 20-25% buff to other DPS was meant as a rough baseline.

     

    As the Necro has been stated to be CC but far more DPS based than the other two the Necro could be 100% of a DPS class' damage output but with no group buffs at all. Or 80% and then a smaller damage boost for group members like 10% each.

    • 888 posts
    June 9, 2021 11:06 AM PDT
    This mostly comes down to balance. Class restrictions that are too rigid makes combat repetitive and becomes boring. Class restrictions that are too flexible can cause specialist classes to get skipped in favor of higher DPS classes that can flex into the role when needed. Plenty of players, myself included, like to do the unexpected, so we want some wiggle room. But we mostly all agree that if certain classes have a much harder time finding groups that's a problem.

    I'm confident that VR will get it mostly right by launch since class interdependence is one of the main design goals, and that the much debated LAS system will allow for much greater flexibility without making DPS hybrids overpowered. The game is still in Pre-Alpha, so it's a long way off from the final balance.
    • 30 posts
    July 29, 2021 7:15 AM PDT

    I like some leeway and flexibility in all classes, makes the game more dynamic and more than one way to get through something make the game last.
    I have always hated a certain "this is best and the only way" meta.
    Did a lot of stuff with the wrong classes and not even full groups in EQ2/Vanguard/AoC and other games, with the right players you can do alot of stuff "wrong" and succeed. :)

    Tanked and DPS'd and even crowd controled with healers, Tanked and healed groups with a necromancer ... e.t.c.

     

     

    • 945 posts
    July 30, 2021 7:29 AM PDT

    Praecant said:

    Ezrael said:

    Enchanter, Bard, Necro can be designed to deal around 50% of what a DPS does when doing DPS and not CC.

    Then their buffs provide a 20%-25% damage increase for any physical or caster DPS in the group.

    • So when there are no mobs to lock down your group with a support class essentially has the 6th person providing + 110-125% DPS from their own DPS + group buffs.
    • When they focus on CC you have + 60-75% due to buffs only, but now from your healer/tank's points of view you may have 50-75% reduced incoming damage than if you just brought 4 DPS and tried to burn everything down.

    I've never played an Ench or Bard so I won't go over them but for Necro this would be an immediate turn off for 2 reasons.

    1. Necro historically is a pet class so then you run into the issue of "who does most of the damage?" If the necro does most, why summon the pet except as a personal tank? If the pet does most, what prevents your gameplay from being ungodly levels of boring (See: EQ Magician)? If they do equal, what keeps it from being babysitting job for the healer (you now have an extra AI dps who can't instinctively run out of fire and will need healing as well on top of the necro who's most likely using their Lich abilities to keep their mana at a reasonable level)?
    2. Keeping them at half damage as a wizard (75% with their buffs) makes the first reason seem like a terrible choice. Why would I play this complicated class if im not going to kill anything at an even remotely acceptable pace and even slower before it "turns on" at level whatever?

    In class fantasy, the Necromancer is delving into the dark and taboo for power rather than seeking it through personal growth or extensive research. Why, then, would their strength be less than others? In EQ, the necro could nuke, DoT, drain, fear, snare, root, charm and utterly destroy undead, debuff, buff themselves or their pet, trade HP for mana, and transfer health or mana to other party members. While they can basically "do anything" when it comes to magic, they're safest just dotting up, using a CC, and letting Mr. Bones take care of the big monster. You can nuke, but its horribly mana inefficient for ~100 less damage of a Wizard of equal level (even less when we get to the 60s). But damn is it just cool! You can heal but it requires your own blood.

    The price for all of this is volatility. Wizards, enchanters, Summoners, Priests, they all use mana as a resource. But you use Mana and Health and a bad move can end up with a corpse run and that volatility makes them even more fun. So yeah, Necro as a CC class makes sense as that was one of their strongest areas in the games Pantheon is taking heavy inspiration from but to suggest they should be doing piddly damage as an exchange would be to forget what makes the Necro a Necro/

    Nothing says that the Necro being a Support (formerly known as CC) class would exclude the necro from being a "pet class".  We really don't know much other than the class is likely going to be the 3rd Suport class.  Whose to say that the Necro won't rely on their pet for CC (similar to the Druid relying on their pet for greater healing or the SMNR relying on their pet for DPS)?

    Don't get turned off or frustrated just yet, we haven't even seen the actual class reveal (which even then won't be all inclusive).    :)

    Add: @Those suggesting percentage restrictions - I would absolutely doubt that there will be any hard percentage of difference between DPS and mitigation (i.e. Support classes deal 25% less dmg than DPS etc) because that would be nearly impossible to regulate without severly hampering game mechanics (like putting damage caps on a class, which would be counter-productive to encouraging character advancement - if a wizard has a level 50 spell that should hit for 900-1000 damage, but they have some eqiupment/skills that increases their damage by 20% for x seconds... but that ability hits for 400 damage because of some game mechanic restricting their literal "Damage Per Second" to be the same as the other DPS classes, that would be absolutely garbage...)


    This post was edited by Darch at July 30, 2021 8:10 AM PDT
    • 118 posts
    September 3, 2021 4:55 PM PDT

    Revener said:

    I have always hated a certain "this is best and the only way" meta.
    Did a lot of stuff with the wrong classes and not even full groups in EQ2/Vanguard/AoC and other games, with the right players you can do alot of stuff "wrong" and succeed. :)

    Tanked and DPS'd and even crowd controled with healers, Tanked and healed groups with a necromancer ... e.t.c.

     

    Running in circles is sometimes the best crowd control. =P

     

     

    • 392 posts
    September 3, 2021 5:33 PM PDT

    It worked well for Saicred in the DL stream