Reading the November newsletter, I had a thought:
Sometimes "breaking the fourth wall" can erode immersion. One of the problems we all seem to have with current questing is the hand-holding and punctuation marks and scripted dialogue of a quest giver, etcetera.
Well, if the perception system sends you a text message or if a window pops up on your screen with text that says "hmmm what was that noise over there?" That is a little bit of the same thing: The game mechanics are going around the character and directly to the player to. If a Quest giver gives you a line of triggered text versus a location gives you a triggered text, it's somewhat similar.
There is a lot of promise with the perception system and here is my suggestion to really leverage the potential:
Instead of using text messages and perception conversations from the system, make things actually appear.
For example:
A non -perceptive player walks down a path and never sees the evidence of a smoldering campfire, suggesting someone had been there recently.
A perceptive player walks down the path and gets a message or popup window saying "a wispy stream of smoke escapes the ashes".
Now, a better way to perceive that, instead of that player getting text, telling them they see that is for them to actually *SEE* that.
A non -perceptive player walks down a path and never sees the evidence of a smoldering campfire, suggesting someone had been there recently.
A perceptive player walks down the path and actually sees a tiny wisp of smoke coming from the ashes.
So instead of using text to indicate perception. Actually change the experience and let the player experience/see/hear things that they perceive.
This, will be a game changer
How would a player know if what they're seeing is some quest trigger or just a random part of the world? How would they know to investigate further? Or even how to begin investigating further?
It's a great idea, but I think something like that would cause more confusion and frustration than anything. Instead of feeling like I can go out and explore and uncover things, I'd be constantly stressing and wondering if that rock I just passed was there for everyone else and what if it meant something.
Naunet said:How would a player know if what they're seeing is some quest trigger or just a random part of the world? How would they know to investigate further? Or even how to begin investigating further?
It's a great idea, but I think something like that would cause more confusion and frustration than anything. Instead of feeling like I can go out and explore and uncover things, I'd be constantly stressing and wondering if that rock I just passed was there for everyone else and what if it meant something.
While the idea proposed by the OP seems a bit extreme, sometimes isn't it bad to be constantly wondering "And if this would lead to a quest?" instead of "Ah, a quest."
Sometimes, but when it could be every little thing, it will quickly get overwhelming.
And how would you design the quest trigger? At some point, it seems you have to have the game say "Here's a quest".
Naunet said:Sometimes, but when it could be every little thing, it will quickly get overwhelming.
And how would you design the quest trigger? At some point, it seems you have to have the game say "Here's a quest".
I think clicking with no clue, highlight or cursor change would be something really refreshing for immersion. I don't care if it's received tedious or overwhelming, it's a part of beeing a questlurker to be curious and try things !
fazool said:Now, a better way to perceive that, instead of that player getting text, telling them they see that is for them to actually *SEE* that.
A non -perceptive player walks down a path and never sees the evidence of a smoldering campfire, suggesting someone had been there recently.
A perceptive player walks down the path and actually sees a tiny wisp of smoke coming from the ashes.
Sorry, I'm slightly confused by your proposed alternative. Perhaps you can clarify for me.
Are you suggesting that we as players simply need to be more perceptive in order to find quest queues (the campfire in your example)? In other words, the burden of perceiving our in-game surroundings should fall to the player, and those of us who possess a high real world perception will find quest information? Or are you proposing an actual game mechanic in which a player with the requisite perception skill will have a campfire revealed to them, whereas a player without the requisite perception skill would not?
Let me clarify:
Let's say a cleric and a ranger are walking down a path.
The ranger has spent a lot of time in this type of environment. They are elvish. They have developed a sense of perception for such things.
The cleric is a human and spent their life in the city. They have no such perception skills.
They walk side-by-side down a forest path, past a burnt-out campfire.
The ranger is going to perceive something which the cleric will not perceive.
My proposal is, instead of a text message or instead of a popup window, the ranger-player actually literally sees smoke coming off the campfire. The game will know to show the smoke to the ranger.
This could be done like a see-invis spell. Some NPC is invis and one player can't see it, but the other player is flagged as having see-invis so they can see the NPC.
Use a similar mechanism: a "clue" is invis and cannot be seen. If a player is flagged as having enough perception, then they can see the clue. In this example, the clue was a wisp of smoke.
I also think it would be interesting and add to the dynamic. Imagine two players talking "did you see that?" "No...see what?" "the campfire is smoldering" "it looks cold to me"
Nikademis said:are you proposing an actual game mechanic in which a player with the requisite perception skill will have a campfire revealed to them, whereas a player without the requisite perception skill would not?
To simplify, I believe this ^ is what he meant.
I like the idea but I think it is about 4 years to late to matter.
Thanks for the clarification fazool.
I tend to agree with philo on this, it's likely too far down the line to make a change like this. With that said, if Pantheon is a success (as I many of us think it will be) perhaps the Perception system can be further iterated on for future VR games.
Perhaps, but if you use the invisibility mechanism, it could be done (I think) without a lot of added difficulty.
It doesn't have to be for all perceived things. Use a combination of the two maybe?
Naunet said:How would a player know if what they're seeing is some quest trigger or just a random part of the world? How would they know to investigate further? Or even how to begin investigating further?
It's a great idea, but I think something like that would cause more confusion and frustration than anything. Instead of feeling like I can go out and explore and uncover things, I'd be constantly stressing and wondering if that rock I just passed was there for everyone else and what if it meant something.
But that's exactly the point......the game shouldn't tell you. You have to explore and figure it out from what you see sand experience.
After a very short while, people are all going to know that the text oppups are the quest triggers so it's just like an exclamation point on a mini map.
Frankly, I think they should cut it unless it is not just improved, but significantly changed in the core way it currently works. There's no point in spending time putting window dressing on a question mark replacement. They call it "perception" but there is none required. I know it's super early, but some of these grandious ideas are bound to be good on paper and bad in implementation, and the sooner they are identified the sooner they can stop throwing good money after bad.
fazool said:Let me clarify:
Let's say a cleric and a ranger are walking down a path.
The ranger has spent a lot of time in this type of environment. They are elvish. They have developed a sense of perception for such things.
The cleric is a human and spent their life in the city. They have no such perception skills.
They walk side-by-side down a forest path, past a burnt-out campfire.
The ranger is going to perceive something which the cleric will not perceive.
My proposal is, instead of a text message or instead of a popup window, the ranger-player actually literally sees smoke coming off the campfire. The game will know to show the smoke to the ranger.
This could be done like a see-invis spell. Some NPC is invis and one player can't see it, but the other player is flagged as having see-invis so they can see the NPC.
Use a similar mechanism: a "clue" is invis and cannot be seen. If a player is flagged as having enough perception, then they can see the clue. In this example, the clue was a wisp of smoke.
I also think it would be interesting and add to the dynamic. Imagine two players talking "did you see that?" "No...see what?" "the campfire is smoldering" "it looks cold to me"
I agree 100%. This is actually perceiving something that someone else would not. Perhaps you hear a trickle of water or see a crack in a wall that other people wouldn't. You'd actually have to PERCEIVE. As it stands right now, all you do is enter a radius and trigger something. That's not fun or smart or interesting.
I had some very similar thoughts (as Fazool) regarding perception. I shared them in Discord but I'll post them here:
I understand where you're going with this.
However, what you are suggesting seems more like a key point in a quest line.
Either you can see it and get the quest, or you can't and you need to retrace your steps and adjust or improve yourself so that you can get the "quest update/-starter".
Still, it's a good opening for a discussion.
Personally, I'ld view it more like a parking system on your car or a metal detector.
To prevent having to spam your /investigate macro. It could be skill based, as the dev's suggested in the 11-2018 newsletter.
How does the message come across? A small mechanic prior to the message popping up, could make players aware something is at hand in the area. This would not be skill based but would relate to availability, like the dev's stated (faction, race, class, environmental conditions).
The mechanic might just be, a golden glow around your characters name or a kind of pling sound that is specific to the perception system of the game. So it can not be mistaken for any other sound in game.
They already have a sound cue in combination with that message when a perception message pops up, as you can see in streams.
I'll try to explain by example:
A ranger is walking down a path in the forest. At a certain point he reaches a fork in the road, when he starts the path to the left, nothing happens. When he starts the path to the right, a slight halo flashes around his characters name in combination with a specific sound cue. NOTHING MORE initially. This vague "thing", alerts the ranger that if he wants, he can explore the nearby area for an actual Perception trigger. Hereby I mean, the sound and message popping up, like shown in streams.
This means, that the ranger (if he wants to) will have to spend some time, moving around that (small?) area/vicinity in search of that perception cue. He can dismiss it, just by keep running along the path. When he walks down this path again, the same thing will occur.
It is not a massive quest spoiler alert, but far more subtle. Meaning; hey, if you want, you can find something here in the vicinity. All this can be tied up with the skills that the perception system is already offering. I'm just talking about a vague message prior to the actual perception cue. From there on the system as they designed it so far, can unroll as planned.
Trying to give another example based on an actual Pantheon video. (https://www.pantheonmmo.com/media/video/) (video on perception system, with the female crying)
A player is walking up a road, leading to a town. Further up is a fork up the road and some npc's moving around that area. A halo flashes around your characters name and a specific sound triggers. The player stops in his tracks, but nothing more happens. Now the player has become aware that within his vicinty, something might trigger the perception system. As long as he going to explore this specific area. The player move up to the fork in the road and hears the female npc crying (aka actual perception trigger as already designed ingame).
So in a way this first subtle cue, will tell the player nothing. Other then, "hey, something is at hand here, if you want explore the area."
So to relate to Fazool's storyline: You walk up a road, a halo flashes and sound goes off (not a warhorn but really something subtle but distinct, maybe even just the same sound as the actual perception soundcue?). The player walks around that part of the road and stumbles onto the campfire, the Perception system triggers:
"A non -perceptive player walks down a path and never sees the evidence of a smoldering campfire, suggesting someone had been there recently.
A perceptive player walks down the path and gets a message or popup window saying "a wispy stream of smoke escapes the ashes"."
And it continues from there. This feels less, like you're blocking away content and actually more like providing the choice and ability to explore and discover at your own pace.
It is vague, but meaningfull enough, so that players are not constantly stressing out and fearing they have missed a clue. In fact it's the other way around, they can relax but can get excited from the point they encountered this vague cue.
When talking about elves can see and humans can not. They alread stated that they would implement such differences, so that I'ld think would already be their intention to put such differences in the game. So yeah, it is likely that everyone will experience the game differently based on what, when and how they are playing. They also stated, if I'm not mistaking, that early perception triggers or such might be shared in group. Details of course are not yet available.
My understanding of Perception was always that the things are there to be seen regardless of if you have Perception turned on or even learned it (ie Became a Keeper). Perception wouldn't change your visual environment, but rather just give you the option to learn more about it.
So in the OP's idea of a camp fire, I would suggest that the camp fire would be there to be seen by anyone who ran by... but only a Keeper might be triggered to find this interesting and investigate. In our Earth reality, things don't become invisible just because we don't notice them. If a perceptive person see's a camp fire and points it out to you, it's not like you will be blind to it just because you weren't that perceptive to see it before it was pointed out to you.
The way the Newsletter described things... it suggests that if you run by a camp fire and no 'insight' trigger happens because your Perception skill is too low... but your human brain says "Hmmm... I wonder if there is something about this camp fire"... you may still be able to use the 'investigate' skill to activate the Perception trigger and start the lore or storyline, or even get a quest, even though you didn't get a unprompted perception trigger. Unless of course your perception skill is so very low that even though your human brain was smart enough to find this interesting, your character is still too unperceptive to gleen anything interesting from the camp fire. Which would mean that your Human self might need to make a Human note to return to this area after your character advances a bit in Perception and give it another go.
As for Class and Race specific perception triggers. It would still not limit the visual of said thing... but rather that a player from one class would not find anything interesting about it whereas another might find it very interesting. Again if we go to reality... if you walk through a forest and walk past a real big pile of rocks, you may just think "Man this pile of rocks is big... gotta go around it." but if a Geologist walks in the same forest and see's the rocks, he may respond with "Egad... is that an Agglomerate... There must be a Volcano around here!" which triggers a bit of investigation that leads him to find the trail to the Volcano. A non-geologist would never ever notice anything special about the pile of rocks, even if he noticed that they were a different colour or texture than the average rocks he's seen before.
