I prefer mystery.
I don't want you to tell us.
I want the world to be a mysterious place and lpayers to come up with theories.
Why do we have to choose between them?
Some mobs spawn on fixed timers. Some are random. Some are random within a certain window (like Hadden whio spawned anywhere from 2:15 to 2:45, randomly). Some mobs are triggered. Some (likeQuillmane) are urban legend triggers.
Don't constrain it and don't follow any protocols or rules.
Zyellinia said:philo said:3)Another option is to wait until the competition has changed so that you can compete.
4)Another option is to go without because you can't or don't want to put forth the effort that is required.
I would say that at least #4 (probably #3 as well) is not a perfectly acceptable solution in the eyes of the devs because it often leads to option 5:
5) quit the game and rant to your friends that it is all c-blocked garbo...
A big part of the fun in an MMO is progressing through the content. When you are denied access to the content you generally stop having fun and most will just unsub until there is new content to progress through (see the last few WoW expansions where subs plummet every raid cycle as people finish gearing).
The devs have to be ok with #4. Otherwise they would simply design content that is easy and instanced so that everyone can do it with little effort.
Your #5 is not entirely accurate because of #3. It usually takes until the next expansion. Eventually that content will be outdated in the eyes of some players and they will move on. At that point, the guilds who couldn't, or wouldn't take the time to, compete can step in.
This ^ is a positive thing as far as the lifespan of the game. It extends content by making older expansions still desirable.
edit: If you want to further this conversation we should take it to pms. We are getting off topic again.
oneADseven said:A lot of stuff...
There are some really great ideas in this post.
I would also be a fan of something similar with party bosses, where they are all completely random in as many wasy possible within a level range, including the loot. It could possible discourage camping, and encourage exploration if nobody was certain when, where, and which boss in the level range is going to drop the rare "Cloak of Untold Uberness".
Kilsin said:Community Debate - Random Boss Spawns vs Fixed/Timed Boss Spawns, which do you prefer and why? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters
Fixed/Timed Boss spawns ... I call that "Fippy Darkpaw Syndrome."
Pros? Everyone knows where and when the spawn occurs. Content is the same for everyone. No one misses out (except maybe to a camper).
Cons? Everyone knows where and when the spawn occurs. Content is the same for everyone. Campers competing for spawn rights.
Random Boss spawns...
Pros? Makes more logical sense to some people (it might seem more like a world than a game). Content isn't the same for everyone - or even for the same player on an alt character. Website authors have a harder time writing game guides about how to level up on the quickest path.
Cons? Some people might have a more difficult time finding the boss. Content isn't the same for all. Website authors have a harder time writing game guides about how to level up on the quickest path.
It depends what you mean by "boss".
If we're talking raid mobs, then I think you have to have an instanced "starting" raid zone that allows casual and medium sized guilds something to do, look forward to, and improve. As long as that one raid instance is there for everyone to have something to do, then I think you do the EQ1 style Timed Boss Spawns with a level of variance and let the server go full open world competition. Yes, the top guilds will put the encounter on lock and battle it out each time, but as they gear out and expansions come, the lower guilds will move up and take over that content. Maybe the trick is to have multiple raid mobs pop at the same time, which would hopefully force guilds to choose targets knowing they'll likely lose others. The worst thing you can do though is let everyone get a shot at the raid mobs, that just trivializes the loot rewards. Make the initial instanced raid dungeon that type of scenario. The loot is good, not great, and it's all no drop. The purpose would be just to allow people the fun of raiding. The real competition and tradeable loot comes from the open world raid mobs. WoW essentially did this and it was immensely popular.
If we're talking named mobs in dungeons, than I think it should be random. That allows multiple groups to set up camp over a group of mobs with the hope that they might see a rare spawn. I thought EQ1 did a good job of this when they revamped RunnyEye. Setting up a camp for hours/days is fun though, so anything that further allows more people to do that and not be blocked from the possibility of getting the rare mob they are after is a good thing. Just make sure the loot is insanely rare to offset the increased spawns. Plus it would up the difficulty if you never know if the Ghoul Lord is going to spawn on top of you or not.
I am for both random and fixed, and also roaming.
If it is just random...then the whole wall falling down on Brad and him, well supposed to of, getting eaten by the boss wouldn't exist then. So I don't think it should be 100% random or 100% fixed. Mix it up and have it be oganic.
Mathir said:The worst thing you can do though is let everyone get a shot at the raid mobs, that just trivializes the loot rewards. Make the initial instanced raid dungeon that type of scenario. The loot is good, not great, and it's all no drop.
Can you clarify this? I understand it is just small part of your post, I don't understand how making a game that everyone, yes everyone has a chance to all experience?
I am usually drawn to the medium sized " family " guilds and I understand that my guild and myself will not put in the time of a bigger guild does. And I am ok trying to kill that raid mob once a.month instead of every 3 or 4 days. Where I think a lot of smaller guilds get upset is the bigger guild make it THEIR mob.
When a mob is random it is more difficult to hold that mob spawn time and have guild all log on 10 mins before spawn time to kill 5 mins after spawn. No one is asking to hold the guilds hand and walk them to the raid mob and help kill. If a smaller guild can pull the people, and get the tactics right and can kill the raid mob....how is that the worst thing? The only thing stopping that from happen are other players. Again if it is random like you said 2 raid mobs may pop at the same time, and 2 separate guilds may get raid loot..maybe not, maybe one gets killed and 1 guild can clean up and get both. The randomness of the spawn will work itself out from there.
Mathir said:The worst thing you can do though is let everyone get a shot at the raid mobs, that just trivializes the loot rewards.
This doesn't add up, yet I see it as a very common argument in favor of player gating content. If the game is actually challenging and raids especially so, then even if everyone had the opportunity to attempt something only the most skilled players would ever actually beat the encounter(s). It wouldn't end up being some loot pinata.
((The worst thing you can do though is let everyone get a shot at the raid mobs))
So sorry - but this doesn't really make sense.
I can understand and agree with making the raids so hard that only the top players (by gear or skill) can beat them. I can understand and agree with saying that if the raids are so easy that anyone can beat them it trivializes both the content and the rewards.
But saying that only a few should even get the chance to try and fail?
No.
Nephele said:To add to my last post - I'd support predictable conditions for spawns if we're talking about more conditions than just time.
For example:
There are four orc camps around an ancient shrine. In each camp, an Elementalist (named orc) can spawn randomly anywhere in the camp. Elementalists all drop various elemental cloaks with nice effects.
If all four elementalists and up, and if it's a full moon and the sky is clear, then at midnight the four elementalists will all proceed to the top of the shrine to conduct a ritual together.
If they complete that ritual successfully, the Demon Lord Bhazra is summoned into being at the top of the shrine and the four Elementalists will despawn. At dawn, Bhazra will proceed to path towards the human village nearby, attacking any non-orc NPCs in his path (as well as any players).
Players wishing to get items from the Elementalists just need to look for them in the orc camps and get lucky. Players wanting to get Bhazra's loot somehow need to be there at the right time (full moon, clear sky, midnight) and hope that no one else has killed the elementalists recently. Then Bhazra spawns and they can either fight him at the shrine, OR try to catch him on his way to the village before he runs into an army of NPC guards that would effectively steal the kill.
But anything less complex than that? Keep some randomness to it please, both in terms of time and location.
While I do thoroughly enjoy this type of situation where one subset of NPCs can complete some rituation to spawn a bigger/badder NPC with a different loot table it can be quite difficult to convince people who are needing/wanting items off both to work together. That being the people wanting items off the elementalists need to postpone their needs to satisfy the needs of someone else. Not an easy proposition. I feel like there was something like this in EQ1 but cannot remember if my memory is correct.
Vandraad said:Nephele said:To add to my last post - I'd support predictable conditions for spawns if we're talking about more conditions than just time.
For example:
There are four orc camps around an ancient shrine. In each camp, an Elementalist (named orc) can spawn randomly anywhere in the camp. Elementalists all drop various elemental cloaks with nice effects.
If all four elementalists and up, and if it's a full moon and the sky is clear, then at midnight the four elementalists will all proceed to the top of the shrine to conduct a ritual together.
If they complete that ritual successfully, the Demon Lord Bhazra is summoned into being at the top of the shrine and the four Elementalists will despawn. At dawn, Bhazra will proceed to path towards the human village nearby, attacking any non-orc NPCs in his path (as well as any players).
Players wishing to get items from the Elementalists just need to look for them in the orc camps and get lucky. Players wanting to get Bhazra's loot somehow need to be there at the right time (full moon, clear sky, midnight) and hope that no one else has killed the elementalists recently. Then Bhazra spawns and they can either fight him at the shrine, OR try to catch him on his way to the village before he runs into an army of NPC guards that would effectively steal the kill.
But anything less complex than that? Keep some randomness to it please, both in terms of time and location.
While I do thoroughly enjoy this type of situation where one subset of NPCs can complete some rituation to spawn a bigger/badder NPC with a different loot table it can be quite difficult to convince people who are needing/wanting items off both to work together. That being the people wanting items off the elementalists need to postpone their needs to satisfy the needs of someone else. Not an easy proposition. I feel like there was something like this in EQ1 but cannot remember if my memory is correct.
I think there was but the only thing I could remember was rockhoppers! there was a rockhopper cave that was great for getting hides for higher end tailoring- provided- you left the two uber named that also had nice loots, alive. If you killed them then the tribal men would take over and they were a bit tougher and the rockhoppers would not come back untill you cleared out the cavemen. everyone knew to leave the named rockhoppers alone and would shout accusatory curses to the unknown persons if they found the cave full of cavemen instead of rockhoppers. I thought it underhandedly taught stewardship or good animal husbandry just from game play which I thought was neat.
From nephs example I can see a cool community/guild chatter happening if somenone passes by and sees all four orcs up! last week there were only three!~ what day is it! and then there would be a slow race to the full moon as word got out- lol.
Manouk said:Raid targets would be tricky, as the idea would be how to make them not unfairly monopolized or loop-locked into a certain timezone but I like oneAD7's ideas although I feel they may be too mechanically challenging to produce in game.
Could you elaborate a little bit on this? The only aspect that would be challenging, in my opinion, is figuring out how to leverage a lockout system with MDD. I think this can be solved by using FTE (and encounter locking) for any boss that utilizes the hyper/ghost mechanic but that might not be something that VR is willing to do. The open-world lockout system is something that originally appeared in Vanguard so there is definitely a precedent that it could work.
Kilsin said:Community Debate - Random Boss Spawns vs Fixed/Timed Boss Spawns, which do you prefer and why? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters
I enjoy a mix.
Most basic boss mobs should be in static locations with predictable respawn timers players should be able to plan basic dungeon delves.
However, a good set of random encounters that can appear anywhere, and at any time, should be used. It’s great to be in a random area and run across something special. I believe these mobs should carry special loot to award those that discovered them. They could be one time spawns or respawns a day or so. Definitely a good way to reward exploration and encourage people to run through lesser populated areas.
This video of Ashes shows a great example of what I think would be the perfect combination of bosses, events and weather. The world, bosses and npc being affected by weather is an awesome idea and would be excellent in Pantheon. Example; different npc out during the rain vs dry weather, night vs day.
A bit of both . But what I like most is a third variant - triggered spawns especially inside of innocent looking standard regions .
The interest is here to try to solve a mystery - is this named rare because it has a long respawn timer and a low spawn probability or is it because there is a trigger that nobody has figured out yet ? It is especially interesting when the trigger is a little complex . In EQ there were several instances of complex triggers and it added puzzles to solve which were cheap to create and always good for a game . I think that it took several years untill people figured out how to spawn Quilmane . And even then if I remember well , it was a former EQ dev who gave some hints .
oneADseven said:Manouk said:Raid targets would be tricky, as the idea would be how to make them not unfairly monopolized or loop-locked into a certain timezone but I like oneAD7's ideas although I feel they may be too mechanically challenging to produce in game.
Could you elaborate a little bit on this? The only aspect that would be challenging, in my opinion, is figuring out how to leverage a lockout system with MDD. I think this can be solved by using FTE (and encounter locking) for any boss that utilizes the hyper/ghost mechanic but that might not be something that VR is willing to do. The open-world lockout system is something that originally appeared in Vanguard so there is definitely a precedent that it could work.
Yes the open world lockout in vanguard I understand as being the raid monster would then ghost or grey-out to those involved in the kill. and yes it is the hyper/ghost mechanic that I thought might be challenging to produce in game with the tokens. I ws getting a little lost thinking the guild that conquered the true hyper dragon, could then tackle the ghost version and get one hyper essences right away. My understanding wasm once the draogn was ghosted it would not be able to be engaged. The mechanic is complex and I see how they connect but form a one guild perspective. I think the ghosted monster would only be ghosted ot the guild that just conquered it, to an incoming other guild, the monster would be "live" or the true hyper version.
I did like the bonus idea of the colesium. It grooved a little with an early zoo idea I had. I can also see the collesium as being the basic venue for guide events (like the real collesium used to be) where guides can shout challenges to a monster and have pre-made loot tables to choose from with limits to fill the monster, some basic world building pre-made templates, like to fill collesium with water or jungle. Plus a pallete of skins- and control entrance to collesium like a zone in. Even give prizes if they want for people that zone in.
Man... I'm really stuck on this one... I really do not like instanced anything but Is it right for only the best or more organized guilds to get raid bosses? There is a large part of me that says yeh if you and your guild are that good or that organized that you get the spoils... and I am use to being in these types of guilds and have run guilds like this but... man I start thinking of the all the time and when something pops you have to drop everything and go....
I want this game to be dificult and very challenging and just really fun to play.... I do not know if I want to be in the that type of guild where progression is the only thing that matters any more....I want dungeon crawling and adventure... not fighting over raids and whos turn is it or you are on a server with a douche guild that just takes everything when it pops and no one else gets to attempt it till an exspanion...
I am really trying to think of a better way... like you have to fight a boss than you get to pick a door and thats all you can do for a week... Now... who knows what is behind the door it could be a huge dungeon with a boss at the end or more choices to make....than another guild can spawn the mob outside... like a trigger.... and than they get to pick a door....and they get a chance at something chalanging and fun... and so on... but how many doors are there to choose from? and is that to much like an instance.....
I do want progression but I do not need to be world first anymore because really who gives a $hit.. you get pumped from that stuff great and good for you... I want to make some tight bonds play with good people that I know will back me up and I them.... My philosophy is I will do everything to get you the gear you want and need so that I make you stronger to help me get the gear I want and need... I have always been need before greed....
I do not want hard core progression but I do not want carebear either.... lol so I am not sure what im going to do yet but I feel the urge inside of me that wants to see everything in the game and get all the gear coming out inside of me.. just thinking of this game makes me smile what is instore....
I like the trigger ideas... like maybe you or your group needs to gather or kill something that lets you kill something else to get to a final boss in a dungeon and then trigger it... but I really like random encounters... but then when I am high lvl i want to know where stuff is so i can camp it..... I do think random might be best though... like this boss can spawn in 3 different rooms and the dungeon is so big you can not possiblely cover it all...
I truly worry about this game not being instanced because i want people to stay and make this game a huge success so that VR will make exspansions and meaningful content... I just do not want any more wow clones... lol fun fact I was done with gaming until i heard about PROTF so I went out and bought a computer.....I just feel like people will leave the game if they cannot get to raid content because another guild goes in and drops boss...
I mean seriously do you all remember when it was a race to get the content down and have timers and live around those timers so you could get all the gear... that really wasn't fun and I do not feel like fighting over a raid mob anymore... its a game it should be fun
Sorry for the rant I'm just concerned.....
I wouldn't worry too much about people who quit because of competition in an MMORPG being a big problem. It's not like it is a surprise that the game is going to open world. Part of why I want to play this game is because of the open world competition. To me it makes it feel more of an accomplishment and it is part of the whole multiplayer player aspect of these games instead of everything just being instanced and hald held the whole way.
LucasBlackstone said:I wouldn't worry too much about people who quit because of competition in an MMORPG being a big problem. It's not like it is a surprise that the game is going to open world. Part of why I want to play this game is because of the open world competition. To me it makes it feel more of an accomplishment and it is part of the whole multiplayer player aspect of these games instead of everything just being instanced and hald held the whole way.
I totally get that.. but you know... things are different now... like participation trophies =)... I am sure you know what I mean there....
Maybe I am just getting soft... I would like others to get a chance at end game not just me and the guild I am in... I am not in any guild yet but I doubt ill start one this time unless I have to... I am good to let someone else give it a go... and give council if they want it.... Maybe officer... no drama tho
RANDOM for most, unless it makes sense with the storyline for it to be a specific time of day, etc.
I prefer random for the mystery of course like others have mentioned, but more so to make it a bit more difficult for a single guild to hold world bosses on lock because they know the exact time of day/after how many hours/days every single one is going to spawn. By making it random/varying, it might give others an opportunity to take a shot once in a while, or a lesser guild to get their foot in the door.
-Brizlyn
Manouk said:I ws getting a little lost thinking the guild that conquered the true hyper dragon, could then tackle the ghost version and get one hyper essences right away. My understanding wasm once the draogn was ghosted it would not be able to be engaged. The mechanic is complex and I see how they connect but form a one guild perspective. I think the ghosted monster would only be ghosted ot the guild that just conquered it, to an incoming other guild, the monster would be "live" or the true hyper version.
I'll try to clarify how it would work a little bit better.
The true hyper version (THV) is considered a "contested bonus kill" -- it would basically function like a standard open-world raid boss that players/guilds can compete for. It has a 3-5 day respawn window so there will always be a sense of urgency to kill it.
Once the THV is killed, the mob will respawn as the ghost version 30-60 minutes later. Anybody is free to attack the ghost version as long as they don't have a lockout. (This includes a guild that recently killed the THV since the lockout mechanic doesn't apply to it.) The ghost version is toned down a bit from THV but it should still be considered a very difficult encounter with great rewards. Once you kill the ghost version, you will receive a lockout and no longer be able to see or interact with that mob until the lockout ends. The purpose behind the ghost version basically boils down to content accessibility, so it will continue to respawn every 30-60 minutes and be visible to anybody who doesn't have a lockout. This is an encounter that you can reliably go after every single week with very little competition.
That's the original concept in a nutshell. After a little back and forth with Keldaria, I thought it made sense to expand the idea a little bit. He wasn't thrilled about the idea of settling for a toned down ghost version. The compromise was adding a third version, the "hyper version" which is something that could be triggered by players. To allow for this, the "hyper essence" would be added as a guaranteed drop in the "ghost version" loot table. After collecting 3 of these essences, players could consume them and transform a ghost version into a hyper version. The hyper version is identical to the THV when it comes to difficulty /mechanics, but the rewards are toned down (very slightly in quantity, not quality) and it also shares a lockout with the ghost version.
I know it sounds really complex but there isn't anything ground-breaking here. This concept is basically a hybrid of FFXI/Vanguard raiding elements. FFXI utilized the hyper concept where various raid bosses would respawn once per day, but every now and then (approximately 3-5 days) they would respawn as a more powerful version with better rewards. Vanguard utilized the ghost concept where various raid bosses would respawn in a much shorter window but had a lockout attached to them. I think blending these two things together would create an environment where the competitive guilds have their "contested bonus kill" they can go after every week, while still allowing the rest of the server an opportunity to experience those same encounters. It's a win-win for everybody.
Kilsin said:Community Debate - Random Boss Spawns vs Fixed/Timed Boss Spawns, which do you prefer and why? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters
Upon thinking about this more I'd also like to see if VR would be interested in maybe revisiting the AES system from Vanguard. That short abreviation for the uninitiated is for Vanguard's Advanced Encounter System, which originally worked like a quest. Players might be frolicking through a dungeon and a special item might drop that initiated a quest that eventually would lead them along what I believe was dubbed a "golden path" to where they would eventually encounter a "Golden Mob" as it was called. This was intended to be Vanguard's answer to instancing by allowing players to find those rare items and take up the quest to kill a boss mob that would spawn only for their group. By that I mean you needed that quest item that dropped to kill it. Though I don't think it was ever fully realized. I may have done something related to it during the beta involving a gargoyle type mob in a cave. Brain is a little fuzzy on that one, but I think the mechanic was dropped if I recall correctly.
Blue said:Have a healthy mix of both!
/agree. Mostly random mixed with a smaller portion of timed/fixed.
@Kratuk -- here is a quote from Aradune that touches on the AES you are referring to:
Aradune said:Raive said:So raid content will be exactly like it was in Vanguard. Not a bad thing. (Wish I saved a screenshot from VG's lockout screen and/or what a mob that you are "locked-out" against looks like)
Probably something like that, eventually evolving into the advanced encounter system we'd originally planned for VG but didn't get entirely in.
What details behind VG's lockout functionality do you recall? Any details? And yeah, a screenshot would be great.
I guess the main point is that while it is open world/shared environments (dungeons and outdoors) and not instanced, that doesn't mean there won't be a system of locking out certain mobs in certain circumstances. For example, if a group is taking on a boss/named mob, how much a person not in that group can interfere or influence will likely be more limited than in a regular fight.
