Kalok said:vjek said:Well.. they're not going to re-do all the cities multiple times before launch, they don't have the manpower or time, so.. I'm not sure why anyone would have the impression this isn't what they're going to test with?
Like so many things, if they keep redo-ing it, they'll never launch. If this world content is in pre-alpha, alpha and beta, why would they need to change it, significantly, prior to launch? It's just a city.
Actually, they have re-done AVP at leat twice, and according to Kilsin in one of my other threads are taking another pass at it, so I wouldn't necessarily agree with that.
This is one very real benefit for having a world with physical zonelines. You can resize, reshape, re-design, re-anything-that-comes-to-mind becuase you aren't physically limited with physical connections between areas. If they want Thronefast to suddenly become twice as large because a huge earthquake from a new world shard crashing into Terminus fracturing the mountains they can easily do that.
kreed99 said: First: Just because you created the conversation does not mean you get to monopolize the conversation. Take a step back. Listen. Second: Vanguard would be a more accurate example of size scale for zones and cities. If you have knowledge of this scaling than this is an unwarranted post. Third: Nobody knows (at this point in development) how things are going to turn out. Relax. Take a breath and respect other opinions before just ripping into them. Fourth: Dude. Seriously. Calling out devs for doing anything at this point is just bad form. Fifth: Give it time. Patience. Sixth: I love the word Sixth.
I didn't caall anyone out. I made an observation. Calling them out would have been castigating them for the "apparent size" of Thronefast.
I know the size and scaling of cities in Vanguard, which makes the size of Thronefast all that much more puzzling.
I haven't "ripped into" anyone.
I haven't disrespecteed ANYONE'S opinion, exceept the person who got snarky about the term pre-alpha, and as far as I am concerned, it was deserved.
I have to admit that I had similar thoughts as Kalok does about Thronefast from the videos I had also watched, and I think I've watched them all.
That being said, I also get the feeling that city building is farther back in the development plan than maybe in some other game builds. They seem to be more concentrated on the class development and functionalities. Designing and filling in large towns and cities is more a job for world builders.
The fact that the only positions they have been filling lately have been world builders is a statement to that aspect. And that they also stated alpha will not begin until there is a fleshed out continent.
I'm not really understanding the use of the varied types of cities in Vanguard as some kind of comparison.
I have extensive records on Vanguard. Here is Kahl. Arguably one of the largest cities.
And here is a shot from my map tool showing part of East Kahl and what NPCs were there.
Beefcake said: Its a MMO. You have to be willing to hand waive/suspend belief for a lot of things. Such as the number of NPCs in the city could support the economy the city would need, or enough farm land to support the people, or enough people to support the necessary repairs if the city. Cities in a MMO should not be huge just for the sake of it. The space it occupies should be directly related to the content inside.
There is "suspending disbelief" and then there is, "This is the capital city for an entire race. It should be larger than it currently is. If it were one of many starting cities for the Human race than I might agree. Thronefast, as it currently sits, has a tavern, a barracks, a bank, a market, a church, an archway, and a gazebo.... And it is full. You can't tell me that you truly think that is all this city is going to be.
Beefcake said: Not an entire race. The remnants of each race. Keep in mind terminus is populated by the rescued leftovers.
Which is, yes, in effect, an entire race.... The race of Humans on Terminus. It is ALSO inportant to note that they specifically stated that there will be no "TARDIS effect" going on in Pantheon. So it's mot like they wwill be making the city "larger omn the insie than it appears to be on the outside".
Kalok said:Beefcake said: Not an entire race. The remnants of each race. Keep in mind terminus is populated by the rescued leftovers.Which is, yes, in effect, an entire race.... The race of Humans on Terminus. It is ALSO inportant to note that they specifically stated that there will be no "TARDIS effect" going on in Pantheon. So it's not like they will be making the city "larger omn the insie than it appears to be on the outside".
I guess this rules out instanced housing.
But frankly, I think you simply have to wait and see before possibly over-reacting.
They have just started in recent weeks? To flesh out the continent more, which would include citys, towns and villages. Give it 6 months.
The pre-alpha looks to be about mostly proof of concept work on class and npc function and interaction. They had to build a few dungeon environments purely for testing LoS, aggro, and other NPC functionality but cities have not been even barely touched, as we have seen. Massive changes can be made quite easily.
Kalok said:Beefcake said: Its a MMO. You have to be willing to hand waive/suspend belief for a lot of things. Such as the number of NPCs in the city could support the economy the city would need, or enough farm land to support the people, or enough people to support the necessary repairs if the city. Cities in a MMO should not be huge just for the sake of it. The space it occupies should be directly related to the content inside.There is "suspending disbelief" and then there is, "This is the capital city for an entire race. It should be larger than it currently is. If it were one of many starting cities for the Human race than I might agree. Thronefast, as it currently sits, has a tavern, a barracks, a bank, a market, a church, an archway, and a gazebo.... And it is full. You can't tell me that you truly think that is all this city is going to be.
Well actual human history can kind of show your 'perceptions' of a race needing some vainglorious monstrosity of a capital city can be wildly wrong.
Ghengis Khan started and ruled the vast Mongol Empire that conquered most of Eurasia never had a massive gleeming castle and capital city.
zewtastic said:Kalok said:Beefcake said: Its a MMO. You have to be willing to hand waive/suspend belief for a lot of things. Such as the number of NPCs in the city could support the economy the city would need, or enough farm land to support the people, or enough people to support the necessary repairs if the city. Cities in a MMO should not be huge just for the sake of it. The space it occupies should be directly related to the content inside.There is "suspending disbelief" and then there is, "This is the capital city for an entire race. It should be larger than it currently is. If it were one of many starting cities for the Human race than I might agree. Thronefast, as it currently sits, has a tavern, a barracks, a bank, a market, a church, an archway, and a gazebo.... And it is full. You can't tell me that you truly think that is all this city is going to be.
Well actual human history can kind of show your 'perceptions' of a race needing some vainglorious monstrosity of a capital city can be wildly wrong.
Ghengis Khan started and ruled the vast Mongol Empire that conquered most of Eurasia never had a massive gleeming castle and capital city.
But he *DID* have a massive caravan of people who tool over entire regions while he was there. Just because he was migratory doesn't mean that it wan't large.
Beefcake said: First, my friend. Take a breath. Put the tin foil hat back on. Now, there are a lot more buildings than you have stated. It sounds like you are only gauging size from the streams, not actual play. I can assure you that you have not seen everything there is. In fact, none of us has, because it's not done yet. Wait until you get into testing and see the FINISHED version before continuing your forum rant.
Again, I didn't say anything about BUILDINGS. I said the area of Thronefast. There is a difference.
Kalok said:zewtastic said:Kalok said:Beefcake said: Its a MMO. You have to be willing to hand waive/suspend belief for a lot of things. Such as the number of NPCs in the city could support the economy the city would need, or enough farm land to support the people, or enough people to support the necessary repairs if the city. Cities in a MMO should not be huge just for the sake of it. The space it occupies should be directly related to the content inside.There is "suspending disbelief" and then there is, "This is the capital city for an entire race. It should be larger than it currently is. If it were one of many starting cities for the Human race than I might agree. Thronefast, as it currently sits, has a tavern, a barracks, a bank, a market, a church, an archway, and a gazebo.... And it is full. You can't tell me that you truly think that is all this city is going to be.
Well actual human history can kind of show your 'perceptions' of a race needing some vainglorious monstrosity of a capital city can be wildly wrong.
Ghengis Khan started and ruled the vast Mongol Empire that conquered most of Eurasia never had a massive gleeming castle and capital city.
But he *DID* have a massive caravan of people who tool over entire regions while he was there. Just because he was migratory doesn't mean that it wan't large.
Haha. They weren't migratory. They didn't head to Florida in the winter.
Small Mongol tribes and families are nomadic, competent with horses. But not the Khan Empire, they didn't just roam around, they had huge population areas. They used the lessons learned from their nomadic lifestyles to make them highly mobile for conquering and holding vast areas.
I think we should focus more on the qualitative aspects and not the quantitative. I've played a lot of MMOs with insanely large cities and didn't get any feeling of immersion from them. Conversely, I've played games with relatively tiny cities and felt like I was in a living, breathing world. I am more interested in the content of the area than in its square footage.
zewtastic said:Kalok said:zewtastic said:Kalok said:Beefcake said: Its a MMO. You have to be willing to hand waive/suspend belief for a lot of things. Such as the number of NPCs in the city could support the economy the city would need, or enough farm land to support the people, or enough people to support the necessary repairs if the city. Cities in a MMO should not be huge just for the sake of it. The space it occupies should be directly related to the content inside.There is "suspending disbelief" and then there is, "This is the capital city for an entire race. It should be larger than it currently is. If it were one of many starting cities for the Human race than I might agree. Thronefast, as it currently sits, has a tavern, a barracks, a bank, a market, a church, an archway, and a gazebo.... And it is full. You can't tell me that you truly think that is all this city is going to be.
Well actual human history can kind of show your 'perceptions' of a race needing some vainglorious monstrosity of a capital city can be wildly wrong.
Ghengis Khan started and ruled the vast Mongol Empire that conquered most of Eurasia never had a massive gleeming castle and capital city.
But he *DID* have a massive caravan of people who tool over entire regions while he was there. Just because he was migratory doesn't mean that it wan't large.
Haha. They weren't migratory. They didn't head to Florida in the winter.
Small Mongol tribes and families are nomadic, competent with horses. But not the Khan Empire, they didn't just roam around, they had huge population areas. They used the lessons learned from their nomadic lifestyles to make them highly mobile for conquering and holding vast areas.
I never said that "he migrated to Florida during the winter". Nomadic tribes, by their very nature, are migratory. It's not all about the weather. In Ghengis' case, he migrated to where the new lands to be conqured were. He did not sit in one place.
Nice try though.
And it has nothing to do with Thronefast nor the apparent size of the city. Central ciities of peoples are typically large because they are a central congregation point for government, people who want to be close to government, their businesses, et al. Look at the size of ANY capital city of a nation in the world. In comparative size, it is the largest size in that country.
Gnash said:I think we should focus more on the qualitative aspects and not the quantitative. I've played a lot of MMOs with insanely large cities and didn't get any feeling of immersion from them. Conversely, I've played games with relatively tiny cities and felt like I was in a living, breathing world. I am more interested in the content of the area than in its square footage.
Nobody said anything about it needing to be "insanely large". What id DOES need to be is large enough to be plausiblly large enough to be the apital city for an antire race of people.
Kalok said:Central ciities of peoples are typically large because they are a central congregation point for government, people who want to be close to government, their businesses, et al. Look at the size of ANY capital city of a nation in the world. In comparative size, it is the largest size in that country.
Not necessarily. The capitals of Australia, Brazil, Canada, China, India, New Zealand, South Africa, Switzerland, Turkey, the USA, and many smaller countries are not the most populated cities/areas.
But anyway, I'd rest assured that Thronefast will be much larger than just that entry way.
Iksar said:Kalok said:Central ciities of peoples are typically large because they are a central congregation point for government, people who want to be close to government, their businesses, et al. Look at the size of ANY capital city of a nation in the world. In comparative size, it is the largest size in that country.
Not necessarily. The capitals of Australia, Brazil, Canada, China, India, New Zealand, South Africa, Switzerland, Turkey, the USA, and many smaller countries are not the most populated cities/areas.
But anyway, I'd rest assured that Thronefast will be much larger than just that entry way.
Point to the post where I said "population". I didn't. I said size. Throughout history people have made their capitol cities large regardless of population to appear powerful and wealthy.
Kalok said:zewtastic said:Kalok said:zewtastic said:Kalok said:Beefcake said: Its a MMO. You have to be willing to hand waive/suspend belief for a lot of things. Such as the number of NPCs in the city could support the economy the city would need, or enough farm land to support the people, or enough people to support the necessary repairs if the city. Cities in a MMO should not be huge just for the sake of it. The space it occupies should be directly related to the content inside.There is "suspending disbelief" and then there is, "This is the capital city for an entire race. It should be larger than it currently is. If it were one of many starting cities for the Human race than I might agree. Thronefast, as it currently sits, has a tavern, a barracks, a bank, a market, a church, an archway, and a gazebo.... And it is full. You can't tell me that you truly think that is all this city is going to be.
Well actual human history can kind of show your 'perceptions' of a race needing some vainglorious monstrosity of a capital city can be wildly wrong.
Ghengis Khan started and ruled the vast Mongol Empire that conquered most of Eurasia never had a massive gleeming castle and capital city.
But he *DID* have a massive caravan of people who tool over entire regions while he was there. Just because he was migratory doesn't mean that it wan't large.
Haha. They weren't migratory. They didn't head to Florida in the winter.
Small Mongol tribes and families are nomadic, competent with horses. But not the Khan Empire, they didn't just roam around, they had huge population areas. They used the lessons learned from their nomadic lifestyles to make them highly mobile for conquering and holding vast areas.
I never said that "he migrated to Florida during the winter". Nomadic tribes, by their very nature, are migratory. It's not all about the weather. In Ghengis' case, he migrated to where the new lands to be conqured were. He did not sit in one place.
Nice try though.
And it has nothing to do with Thronefast nor the apparent size of the city. Central ciities of peoples are typically large because they are a central congregation point for government, people who want to be close to government, their businesses, et al. Look at the size of ANY capital city of a nation in the world. In comparative size, it is the largest size in that country.
Of course, how could I miss that. Migratory has nothing to do with the weather.
Wow. Dictionary much? maybe you should check those definitions again.
Fulton said:Medieval cities were small with the average about 1 square mile.
For many, life was outside the walls of the city, in the small towns and villages surrounding the area.
But they were massive for their time. That being said, Thronefast isn't even that big based on the screen shoots I posted above.
zewtastic said:Kalok said:zewtastic said:Kalok said:zewtastic said:Kalok said:Beefcake said: Its a MMO. You have to be willing to hand waive/suspend belief for a lot of things. Such as the number of NPCs in the city could support the economy the city would need, or enough farm land to support the people, or enough people to support the necessary repairs if the city. Cities in a MMO should not be huge just for the sake of it. The space it occupies should be directly related to the content inside.There is "suspending disbelief" and then there is, "This is the capital city for an entire race. It should be larger than it currently is. If it were one of many starting cities for the Human race than I might agree. Thronefast, as it currently sits, has a tavern, a barracks, a bank, a market, a church, an archway, and a gazebo.... And it is full. You can't tell me that you truly think that is all this city is going to be.
Well actual human history can kind of show your 'perceptions' of a race needing some vainglorious monstrosity of a capital city can be wildly wrong.
Ghengis Khan started and ruled the vast Mongol Empire that conquered most of Eurasia never had a massive gleeming castle and capital city.
But he *DID* have a massive caravan of people who tool over entire regions while he was there. Just because he was migratory doesn't mean that it wan't large.
Haha. They weren't migratory. They didn't head to Florida in the winter.
Small Mongol tribes and families are nomadic, competent with horses. But not the Khan Empire, they didn't just roam around, they had huge population areas. They used the lessons learned from their nomadic lifestyles to make them highly mobile for conquering and holding vast areas.
I never said that "he migrated to Florida during the winter". Nomadic tribes, by their very nature, are migratory. It's not all about the weather. In Ghengis' case, he migrated to where the new lands to be conqured were. He did not sit in one place.
Nice try though.
And it has nothing to do with Thronefast nor the apparent size of the city. Central ciities of peoples are typically large because they are a central congregation point for government, people who want to be close to government, their businesses, et al. Look at the size of ANY capital city of a nation in the world. In comparative size, it is the largest size in that country.Of course, how could I miss that. Migratory has nothing to do with the weather.
Wow. Dictionary much? maybe you should check those definitions again.
I didn't say that migratory had nothing to do with weather. Are you INTENTIONALLY misinterpreting what I said. I said that migration patterns weren't ONLY influenced by weather. It's not ALL about the weather. Sometimes it is. Sometimes it isn't.
Jumping in the quote war but:
Ghengis Khan started and ruled the vast Mongol Empire that conquered most of Eurasia never had a massive gleeming castle and capital city.
Inaccurate. Ghengis Khan founded the city of Karakorum ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karakorum ) which flourished for around 168 years before beeing erased. Also, he didn't "rule" over the greatest empire, but did most of the conquership. The biggest empire was ruled by Kublai Khan, and he moved the capital of the empire once or twice in china area of the empire, once of them beeing at the current place of Beijing.
Just to say, they had cities and capitals, even if they were known to be travelers, and still remain partially nomatic even theses days.
Karakorum was mixed between traditional mongolian Yurts, Arabic and chinese architecture, as it can be seen here : https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/55/Karakorum_Modell_1.jpg (Picture from Karakorum's museum.)
Here was also the Khan's palace https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karakorum#/media/File:Karakorum_Modell_2.jpg , as stated on wikipedia. (Had a different version while venturing there, religious or palace ? Well... )
