So... I am re-re-re-re-re... watching the 'Making of a City' video. One thing that I notice froom it, an also adding in factors like the 'Technical Art' video, Thronefast doesn't seem much "deeper" than the front area that they show with the temple, bank, market, etc. Sure, we see a gate to the back of the Arch, but there doesn't seem to be any city wall past that. Even in the Technical Art video, the city wall seemed to stop about there.
I certainly hope that it looks like that due to being in PA1/2/3 at the time, and not indicative of howw small Thronefast really is.
And, of course, the reason I ask is that Thronefast, based on the videos, seems to be *MUCH* smaller than either Qeynos or Freeport.
I think the bridge alone is longer/wider than EQ1 launch-day Freeport, if the character height is 2m and they're moving somewhere in the 4-8km/hour speed range.
It doesn't take that long to run across those old zones, as the crow flies. The zone maps from EQ1 show they're definitely maze-like, but not particularly massive in the X-Y sense.
My impression from the videos is that the city beyond the bridge is a HUGE space, and if it takes longer than 30 seconds (really, by the stopwatch) to cross that bridge... that's a big damned city.
I think their intent was to show off the idea that players will have market stalls in that massive city square, but after seeing player run market stalls in a few games now? meh..
Make the space useful, not massive for the sake of compensating. ;) It's not Farquaad's castle, after all. hehehe.
vjek said:I think the bridge alone is longer/wider than EQ1 launch-day Freeport, if the character height is 2m and they're moving somewhere in the 4-8km/hour speed range.
It doesn't take that long to run across those old zones, as the crow flies. The zone maps from EQ1 show they're definitely maze-like, but not particularly massive in the X-Y sense.
My impression from the videos is that the city beyond the bridge is a HUGE space, and if it takes longer than 30 seconds (really, by the stopwatch) to cross that bridge... that's a big damned city.
I think their intent was to show off the idea that players will have market stalls in that massive city square, but after seeing player run market stalls in a few games now? meh..
Make the space useful, not massive for the sake of compensating. ;) It's not Farquaad's castle, after all. hehehe.
Yeah. I get that. But even when they were on top of the ramparts in the Technical Preview and looked towards Thronefast. The mountains went on forever, but the walls of Thronefast "proper" seemed to stop right behind where the markey was inside of the city. That's why I wondered.
Most of the cities in EQ1 seamed larger than they were, simply by making you run a long way to get to various areas. For example, two buildings could be right next to each other, but you had to run down a long passage and snake your way back to the other building to enter it. Plus, some cities, like Freeport, had a bit of dead area in them just to add to the time it took to get to place to place, which made them appear larger.
At this point, you can see wall-to-wall how wide the city currently is: https://youtu.be/kz_29h3_Npw?t=1171
And at this point, you can get a better idea of how deep the city is: https://youtu.be/kz_29h3_Npw?t=1261
It really is a pretty big city imo. It's certainly enough room to house all of the basic necessities with enough room to breathe. It may only seem small because you can see farther. But vjek is right - once you're actually in it and running around, it doesn't feel small. If it were too big, you'd waste too much time running from point A to point B. Brad has, in the past, emphasized the importance of being able to quickly come back and sell, bank, etc. so you can easily get back to the fun part, which is adventuring. No one wants to have to run all the way across a massive city just to put something in their bank.
But with all that in mind, this is Pre-Alpha and after they get their Reference Zone of Faerthale done, they'll be revisiting prior zones, as Faerthale will inform how all zones, especially starting cities will be built. So Thronefast may get a makeover at some point.
I posted this on another topic of world size.
"Lets do some quick and dirty calculations.
By my calculations the giant red door of Thronefast is roughly 70ft ( 21.336m )wide and from the video "Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen "Making of a CIty " the front of Thronefast itself appears to be about 12 -14 doors wide which would be 980ft ( 298.704 m ) across. If we assume all of Thronefast is a complete square ( which I doubt it is ) the city would be 960,400 square feet ( 89224.0796 sm ). If we times that by only 1000 the land mass it sits on would only be a mere 34 square miles ( 88 square kilometers )
The entire continent of Kings Reach looks massive. I hope its at least 400 game miles wide from Wilds End to The Vae Wood and 800 game miles long from Thronefast to The Tower of the Reckless Magician. That's small considering its 2700 miles from Los Angeles to New York. Reignfall is even larger so... yeah.... Big world!! "
Bazgrim said:At this point, you can see wall-to-wall how wide the city currently is: https://youtu.be/kz_29h3_Npw?t=1171
And at this point, you can get a better idea of how deep the city is: https://youtu.be/kz_29h3_Npw?t=1261
It really is a pretty big city imo. It's certainly enough room to house all of the basic necessities with enough room to breathe. It may only seem small because you can see farther. But vjek is right - once you're actually in it and running around, it doesn't feel small. If it were too big, you'd waste too much time running from point A to point B. Brad has, in the past, emphasized the importance of being able to quickly come back and sell, bank, etc. so you can easily get back to the fun part, which is adventuring. No one wants to have to run all the way across a massive city just to put something in their bank.
But with all that in mind, this is Pre-Alpha and after they get their Reference Zone of Faerthale done, they'll be revisiting prior zones, as Faerthale will inform how all zones, especially starting cities will be built. So Thronefast may get a makeover at some point.
The thing is, comparing it to cities like in EQ2 and in Vanguard, Thronefast seems downright small area-wise based on what we've seen so far. You'd think a city like that would have a large residential area, more than one taver, many businesses, et al. That is why I am wondering about the size, or lack there-of, that is shown in the videos.
Bazgrim said:At this point, you can see wall-to-wall how wide the city currently is: https://youtu.be/kz_29h3_Npw?t=1171
And at this point, you can get a better idea of how deep the city is: https://youtu.be/kz_29h3_Npw?t=1261
It really is a pretty big city imo. It's certainly enough room to house all of the basic necessities with enough room to breathe. It may only seem small because you can see farther. But vjek is right - once you're actually in it and running around, it doesn't feel small. If it were too big, you'd waste too much time running from point A to point B. Brad has, in the past, emphasized the importance of being able to quickly come back and sell, bank, etc. so you can easily get back to the fun part, which is adventuring. No one wants to have to run all the way across a massive city just to put something in their bank.
But with all that in mind, this is Pre-Alpha and after they get their Reference Zone of Faerthale done, they'll be revisiting prior zones, as Faerthale will inform how all zones, especially starting cities will be built. So Thronefast may get a makeover at some point.
Neither the width, nor the depth in the videos seems particularly large for a "major racial city". It would be like the city of NYC just being Manhattan Island.
My point is, based on the videos, and cities in the other MMOs that I have played.... EQ, EQ2, and Vanguard, Thronefast seems downright small. Too small to be a major city without room for all of the stuff that is needed to represent that.
That being said, it is entirely possible that there is ALOT of "outter wall" missing from the viideos.
By the way... I am *NOT* saying, "Boo hoo! There wasn't much content in the city." This has nothing to do with the actual content that is in there. It has to do with the area being shown (by piecing togethher the various streams) vs the area needed for a large meaningful city.
From the streams you never really get a 'everything in one screen' picture of the entirety of Thronefast. Even if you could, until the city is fully populated with all the buildines, NPCs, etc it really is impossible to definitively say it is either too small or too large. Square footage is really a poor representation of size as you're just looking at 2 of the 3 available dimensions. Would it be realistic to have every building be just 1 story in height? Hardly. I expect that we'll see quite a few buildings, nearly all of them having mulitple floors above ground and some going underground. If you look at european cities of several hundred years ago streets were very narrow and not having the straight grid-like layout you use in the US.
Vandraad said:From the streams you never really get a 'everything in one screen' picture of the entirety of Thronefast. Even if you could, until the city is fully populated with all the buildines, NPCs, etc it really is impossible to definitively say it is either too small or too large. Square footage is really a poor representation of size as you're just looking at 2 of the 3 available dimensions. Would it be realistic to have every building be just 1 story in height? Hardly. I expect that we'll see quite a few buildings, nearly all of them having mulitple floors above ground and some going underground. If you look at european cities of several hundred years ago streets were very narrow and not having the straight grid-like layout you use in the US.
Area is actually a VERY GOOD representatiion of how large something is when it comes to "landmass taken up by something". As I stated, I am not talking about the buildings that are there. I am talking about the area of the ciity of Thronefast. Area has nothing to do with what is in it.
In the videos, I am taking multiple videos into account, not just the one, the AREA of Thronefast seems WAY to small for a major city. In fact, the area, if it truly is a major city, should probably be three to four times, maybe larger, to what it appears to be in the videos. The walls in the "back" (the north side of the city) seem way too close to the "front" (south side of the city where the gates are). The city iappears larger E-W than N-S iin the videos. Multiple videos, not just the one. It seems like it is missing alot of N-S area.
Here. I think that this will better illustrate what I am taling about. You can see the grass and lack of walls past the archway that is grey-boxed. There appears to be a wing to one side, but in the other videos, that's just a wing, it's not "extending the depth of the city N-S.
That really doesn't look like a back wall, it looks like an inner wall leading to a different ward of the city (which is clearly unfinished or even started in this video).
Iksar said:That really doesn't look like a back wall, it looks like an inner wall leading to a different ward of the city (which is clearly unfinished or even started in this video).
That was my initial though as well, except that I see content back there, like terrain. I *HOPE* that's the case.
Hyperium said: pantheon is still in "PRE" ..."Alpha", not even in alpha. It's like judging an engine by the color of the car.
Actually no... No it's not. in order to fill content, you have to have something to place it in. If you do not, you cannot fill it. Nice try though. Thanks for not actually CONTRIBUTING anything to the thread.
Uncalled for snippy responses notwithstanding - Hyperium was right.
What we see now is not necessarily at all indicative of how large Thronefast will be even in alpha much less release.
It is not even necessarily indicative of how large it is *now* they may have thrown some pictures together to make an attractive video even if those aren't precisely how they see the city at the moment. Nothing wrong with that if they did - the precise size and shape of one city is hardly of great importance.
Kalok said:So... I am re-re-re-re-re... watching the 'Making of a City' video. One thing that I notice froom it, an also adding in factors like the 'Technical Art' video, Thronefast doesn't seem much "deeper" than the front area that they show with the temple, bank, market, etc. Sure, we see a gate to the back of the Arch, but there doesn't seem to be any city wall past that. Even in the Technical Art video, the city wall seemed to stop about there.I certainly hope that it looks like that due to being in PA1/2/3 at the time, and not indicative of howw small Thronefast really is.
And, of course, the reason I ask is that Thronefast, based on the videos, seems to be *MUCH* smaller than either Qeynos or Freeport.
I understand and agree with what your point is. It doesn't have any nooks and crannys. Is there a back side to the town, or is what we saw all that there is?
dorotea said:Uncalled for snippy responses notwithstanding - Hyperium was right.
What we see now is not necessarily at all indicative of how large Thronefast will be even in alpha much less release.
It is not even necessarily indicative of how large it is *now* they may have thrown some pictures together to make an attractive video even if those aren't precisely how they see the city at the moment. Nothing wrong with that if they did - the precise size and shape of one city is hardly of great importance.
No. It wasn't uncalled for. He was just being snide and not actually contributing anything useful to the conversation. Like ANY of us don't know the meaning of pre-alpha.
Well.. they're not going to re-do all the cities multiple times before launch, they don't have the manpower or time, so.. I'm not sure why anyone would have the impression this isn't what they're going to test with?
Like so many things, if they keep redo-ing it, they'll never launch. If this world content is in pre-alpha, alpha and beta, why would they need to change it, significantly, prior to launch? It's just a city.
vjek said:...It doesn't take that long to run across those old zones, as the crow flies. The zone maps from EQ1 show they're definitely maze-like, but not particularly massive in the X-Y sense....
Very true of cities but you mention "zones" so I want to mention that is not the case with outdoor zones. Some took "forever" to run across.
Commonlands was very wide (E+W) and the Karanas. heck running south across SK to KFC took a long time. GD too.
And the oceans felt massive.
Lots of zones were, in fact tight. But remember this is about creating a feel. It isn't meaningful to make it to real scale.
vjek said:...It doesn't take that long to run across those old zones, as the crow flies. The zone maps from EQ1 show they're definitely maze-like, but not particularly massive in the X-Y sense....
Very true of cities but you mention "zones" so I want to mention that is not the case with outdoor zones. Some took "forever" to run across.
Commonlands was very wide (E+W) and the Karanas. heck running south across SK to KFC took a long time. GD too.
And the oceans felt massive.
Lots of zones were, in fact tight. But remember this is about creating a feel. It isn't meaningful to make it to real scale.
vjek said:Well.. they're not going to re-do all the cities multiple times before launch, they don't have the manpower or time, so.. I'm not sure why anyone would have the impression this isn't what they're going to test with?
Like so many things, if they keep redo-ing it, they'll never launch. If this world content is in pre-alpha, alpha and beta, why would they need to change it, significantly, prior to launch? It's just a city.
Actually, they have re-done AVP at leat twice, and according to Kilsin in one of my other threads are taking another pass at it, so I wouldn't necessarily agree with that.
