Since I have had this happen in both EQ1 and Vanguard I feel it is probably appropriate to query about here.
Scenario1:
You get an invite into that awesome camp for that uber item. Someone just got one and left. The item is NODROP so no reason to hang around.
I get into the group and am told the loot award is by random. Meaning everyone rolls, highest number gets it.
Sounds good.
A couple hours go by, another drop. Random rolls, another player wins and leaves, a new player is added. Once again, my chances, 1 out of 6. Hmmm.
Couple more hours, another drop, another random roll and the brand new guy gets it this time and leaves. Hmm. I am now in for 4 hours, others longer.
Mathmatically I could spend days and never win a roll.
Scenario 2:
Same setup as scenario 1, except this time loot awarding is based on a fixed sequence. Longest time loots first. Sounds good. I know I will get the item after XX hours.
Couple hours, item drops, longest in line loots and leaves. New member is added.
So it seems like this is the perfect solution, just grind it out.
Yet after a long time camping and looting, my turn was coming and all of a sudden people had to leave, nobody was available to take empty spots, and the camp fell apart.
I spent many hours and still never got my item.
Same result.
Frankly I do not see a solution. Some people just get screwed.
And aside from whatever XP you might get from doing the camp it was just a huge waste of time.
Both random rolls (so long as everyone actually needs the item) and a priority system based on who has waited the longest are perfectly fine methods of loot distribution. When you join a PUG group, there is always the risk of it falling apart before you get what you want. That's just the nature of things. If you want to guarantee you get something, form a group with friends you already know and who are willing to dedicate the time it takes to farm.
You see this frequently in FFXIV, where it is very common to make "farm" groups for the various EX primal mounts. The rules are stated ahead of time and there's a general expectation that you do not leave the party as soon as you have your item. Those who do tend to get bad reps quickly.
Not that I would do it, but weighted rolls? Person with most time invested that session gets an extra roll?
But honestly, I would hope that stuff is more rare that you couldn't just rotate in new players and keep the train rolling, and that one couldn't expect "X" item in "Y" hours of playing.
Pretty much what Kalok said. Groups will handle it differently but I think in this day and age NBG has been mostly phased out.
zewtastic said:Frankly I do not see a solution. Some people just get screwed.
And aside from whatever XP you might get from doing the camp it was just a huge waste of time.
Frankly, no, nobody got screwed. That's life! Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug!
And it wasn't a waste of time. In your scenario I count at least four people that got the item. I would have been chatting between spawns, watching play styles, getting to know them. Adding to friends list (hopefully with an editable Note field I could add something like "met at ITEM-A camp"....but that's in another message thread). Maybe they added you with a simular note and 5 levels later you see them shout "LFM at the ITEM-B camp" and he gets to return the favor.
I actually see it as FAR from a wasted time,but more like a great investment!
I think and hope BOTH of your scenarios are possible in Pantheon. Personally how I handel such situations. If I didn't get mine that night, I'd come back tomarrow. If I did get mine, I would stick arround until they found somebody to replace me or a pre announced time I needed to leave. The groups should decide what loot process to use. Maybe the Devs can supply some means of managing them.
Fulton said:Not that I would do it, but weighted rolls? Person with most time invested that session gets an extra roll?
Exactly what I was going to say. Weighted rolls balance that in my opinion. Each person gets an extra roll for each time they have missed out and highest wins. So, if you have missed 3 times and been in group, you get 4 chances, and that way the new guy can still win it, but the person who has spent 5 hours does not get no bonus chance for their time spent.
zewtastic said:Frankly I do not see a solution. Some people just get screwed.
And aside from whatever XP you might get from doing the camp it was just a huge waste of time.
All I can say is that you have to try and adjust your mindset to find a resolution.. trying and not succeeding in an agreed system should not be viewed as a waste of time. Waiting for a group to turn up who are saying they are going to turn up but have no intention of really doing so... Well what is a waste of time.. but not your scenarios. They are just life and a factor of playing in a "living" world more than a tailored set game experience.
Best option is to actually talk it out and have an open discussion about how to do it and air your concerns... discuss what order, who is rolling and who is next in line and then stick it out, play to the best of your ability and stay with that system. If a group breaks it breaks.. that's life. A person who joins the group most recently (in most people's minds) wouldn't be up for winning the item next... But may gain that status after the next drop I guess. That would come up in conversation right after they join.
Each group is going to vary slightly but it's just about actually talking about it and once it is decided.. it is what it is.
This is why, in the intervening 20 years, personal loot became a thing.
If it's a guild group, it goes to a guildmate who needs it.
If it's a PUG, /roll, doesn't matter who gets it, everyone "needs" it for any reason. But this type of camp will be perma-camped 24x7 in any game with static spawns, including Pantheon, so you won't even get the chance to get the item, unless you pay a cartel monopoly artificially inflated pricing scheme, and possibly RMT.
Ah the joys of 20 year old exploitive mechanics. Breathe deeply. That's the smell of nostalgia. ;)
Make friends and if you really want that piece I am sure your friends will help you get it. Even your guild maybe.
In EQ1 GEBs was pretty gated by boxers with third party systems that they didn't have to be at their computers for and basically autoplayed. It was pretty impossible to set up a group to even get that item because once a new shard would open a boxer would take it. So we took around 100 lvl 50 guild members on the progression server and stormed the camps for GEBs and looted around 20 that night and handed them out to everyone that needed it. So if there is a will there is a way.
So the best solution is find a guild that will back its guild members up and have good friends you play with that will take the time to help you just as you would take the time to help them.
In a pickup group, greed before need, everyone rolls, if I want the item, I won't wait, since I cannot expect or enforce others to stay after they have won their item. So, if I can win it right away, cool, and I'll stay afterwards, as long as I feel like it - and it's understood that everyone will do the same, stay or leave as he pleases.
In a guild group, it's NBG and you can have people waiting for an item in a queue. This is because they can reasonably be expected to stay even after they got the item, stay and help others get the same.
And that is because if they don't, they get bad rep in their own guild, which is more problems for them in the long run than those coupla hours extra are worth.
These rules-of-thumb have more to do with reality such as it is, with people as they really are and what can be realistically expected of them, than with ideals of how one should behave.
Best cast scenario - Master Looting. Very old school but very cool. 1 player holds all the items and loot, then the group rolls for best item to worst item, coin and sellables are split. Works well to force players to stay in group rather than win item and leave.
2nd best case - Need before greed. This rarely happens except in a few scenarios. Requires empathetic players.
3rd best case - Everyone rolls and top roll wins, winner can't win again until everyone else wins 1 item. This way ensures everyone wins something. Downside is certain people will leave once they got their loot, without caring about helping others get something. Requires empathetic players.
4th best case - Everyone rolls every drop. Works best in groups where people come and go quickly or people can't agree on how to loot.
Group with your guild then? Most time guild mates will stay till everyone gets an item or pass on the item if it's been really hunted by someone and they haven't got it yet. In PUG groups, it's always autosplit on, random for everything. No one is obligated to stay for any reason.
There is no perfect loot system, there are optimal loot systems to different scenarios and situations. I during the last 5 years of EQ, I refused to group with PUGS. I ran with the guild at all times and only rarely would we take outsiders into our groups when we needed to. When we did this, we would just force all group members to need on everything so the PUG gets his fair shot while our guild members would hand off loot to those who needed it. I stopped worrying about in game money. All my gear came from raids and all was well before I inevitably quit.
((Ah the joys of 20 year old exploitive mechanics. Breathe deeply. That's the smell of nostalgia. ;)))
I would have been more diplomatic and said that many people like systems that are less than optimal from a gameplay point of view - just because they remember them from the old days. If a system is neutral - just as good as alternatives - sure reuse it for the nostalgia. If it is inferior ditch it and put in a better system. I am pretty sure that this means exactly the same thing.
In terms of everyone rolling need because everyone needs money and why should someone have an advantage because they happen to be playing the class an item drops for - if all items are freely tradable then forget NBG and just have two options - roll or pass. But if any gear is bind on pickup only someone that can use it should be allowed to roll. Otherwise it simply goes to waste as the rogue sells wonderful plate armor to the npc merchant for 10 copper pieces.
bigdogchris - yes master looter is an ideal system for friends and guildmates and should be supported. For a PUG maybe not. Too much control for someone that no one in the group may even know.
I have been lucky and normally group with friends and we always do need before greed. When I do find myself in a PUG I live with whatever I get with little expectations. If I am helping set the roles I typically go for everyone roll. I find it unfair to expect new players joining the group to count on the group not fading once there turn is up.