Although this is a fantasy oriented game. I've experienced in other games, that because they offer so much alternatives and extras and miracle moves, it brings about a down side.
Most of these extra's are fun and fantastic, but I start to lose touch with the Lore within that game. Because of those high fantasy things ingame. For example wonderous flying mounts, super heals or miracle jumps or teleportations made by any class in/out of combat. Solo heals or miracle potions. Monsters and even bigger monsters, from undead to dinosaurs, and what have you.
Especially when I see a dinosaur or a cuddly bearmount in a medieval game, it starts to turn my away from the game. For me this is an example where I can not allign it with the Lore. How well written it may be.
What are your opinions? Can too much fantasy take away the sense of Lore? Or is everything allowed as long as it's well written by the Loremaster? Or should the fantasy stick to its initial genre/style of that game?
Barin, I think what you're getting at is that if you allow player abilities to go too far in terms of their power or potential, it actually makes the game world less believable because it leads to everything feeling completely out of proportion. The stronger you allow player characters to be, the bigger the challenges that you have to make them face to make things feel "real". And you can only throw so many world-ending threats at them before it just starts to be a little ridiculous.
If that's what you're talking about then conceptually, I agree with you. However, I don't think it's a matter of "too much fantasy". It's more about how well things fit into the context of the world around them.
There's nothing wrong with players having access to flight, for example, if the game is built around that concept and it doesn't give those same players an overpowering advantage. For example, imagine a world of sky islands where flight is a core component of the gameplay - not just for travel, but for combat as well. In such a game, flight's not overpowering at all. It's just part of the fiction.
Does flight make sense for the world of Terminus as we know it? Probably not, or if it does exist, it should be very rare and not always available to players. (Before anyone freaks out, I'm just using it as an example). But that's the question we should really ask about every potential feature or ability or power or enemy or whatever that gets added to the game.
Does _______ make sense for the world of Terminus?
If yes, full speed ahead. Just make sure it integrates well.
If no, then let's not have it in the game.
Simple as that.
Barin I feel you on the rediculous evolvements of some games to please the masses. It is almost like some leadership teams sit in a room and guess what makes other things successfull and tries to implement that within their model. If you are reading this and don't think it happens, go to the websites for Applebees, TGI Fridays, Chilis, and others and look at salads....
If the lore is laid out in advance and the game mechanics and its creatures follow this I am excited. If they add a diety/dynasty or series of mobs that challenge the origin lore they MUST add in a supporting lore that makes sense to the origin story. Very few games do this with a fluid form. I am a fan of game expansions and opening new parts of a story. This keeps many games from becoming stagnent and holding the same grind over and over again.
Can too much fantasy kill the lore in a game is what you asked. I don't think too much fantasy can, I feel that too much deviation of what made your game successful and draw an audience can.
Red
I'm not sure the question is well asked. I don't think it's "too much fantasy" that is killing the game, but as stated earlier, the line between lore consistency and the view the player has of it.
As an example, the few asian mmorpg I played missed pretty much every explanation, logic and modesty of lore. TERA would be one of the examples.
-You have barely race choices, and the game doesn't really change depending of your race. Same starting area, same class choices, same story. It's mostly a cosmetic / costume choice more than anything else.
-Monsters are completely random in their appearance. Not tied to their environment or lore, mostly chosen because of aesthetics and uncoordinated design. I encounter mobs looking like Snow White's seven dwarves in the second Area I reached, While I was playing a massive lizard race wielding a big axe. It pretty much broke the credibility I gave to the game at this point.
-Fast travel creatures were pegasus, making them so common you barely had a need of any "standart" flying creature in this setup.
The list could be long, in concept I think the High fantasy setup should mostly start as a normal medieval setup, where things get properly spiced the more you step outside the basic areas.
Great spells of magic are tied to high level players and creatures, and not granted randomly to everyone and everything.
A high fantasy setup can't be an excuse to make everything completely Crazy, limitless and unthought.
There is *definitely* a point at which it is "too much".
Let's look at some 'popular' stuff that's been shoe-horned into MMORPGs before: -
Pirates: Ok. Not actually tooooo bad. If there's a coast, people will make boats. If there's boats, people will steal them. Some reg-tag bunches would make that their life. The *problem* is when you have a largely feudal/middle-ages (say 13th to 16th century regarding arms and armor technology) setting suddenly getting pirates identical to 17th/18th century pirate tropes, including the fashion, the affectations and often including cannons, etc, which of course = gunpowder, which would have enormous remifications, etc, etc, etc.
Ninjas: Depending on your developers and your location, this may, of course, feel more normal than for others, but again, given a european, medieval-like fantasy setting (like Pantheon) having Eastern 'stuff' thrown in can seem odd. Monks are already a little weird, to be honest, though "spiritual martial artists" of some form are a common trope even in European fantasy. Adding in shuriken-throwing, black silk-wearing guys? *sigh*
Zombies: Ok, much more common. I actually have no problem with undead. They are in every fantasy mythos. Problems can arise when Bram Stoker's long-toothed undead suddenly drop into the world, though, complete with eastern european accents and addictions to multi-parapet castles.
Dinosaurs: It has become 'a thing' to have at least one zone full of "the land that time forgot". I'm not wholly against it, but when there are ways to do it. Don't add cavemen in the same zone...
Technology: Gnome tinkering in EQ was on the *very edge* (and sometimes unfortunately stepped over). I'm liking the whole gnomes-who've-given-themselves-over-to-magic thing in Pantheon, but if that suddenly gives them access to some kind of advanced 'technology' I'm going to be shaking my head and sighing my way through the gnome racial areas (and mostly staying clear). Goblins in WoW? Ugh. Fricking motorcycle mounts and rollercoaster fast travel. Even the 'ancient' technology of the dwarves in Elder Scrolls got regularly jarringly weird and overdone.
Technology *can* be worked into 'old world' fantasy, but it's *so* difficult not to make it *so* obviously ridiculous.
Anything *clearly* taken straight from the modern real world and dropped into high fantasy even with tongue firmly in cheek is usually horrible.
Even with steam punk games where everything is based in a certain level of technology mixing with other fantasy tropes you have to be careful not to do things that are too ridiculous.
Aliens: I remember a Dungeons & Dragons module that had a 'dungeon' that was set in a strange structure built into the side of a mountain (crashed UFO). Much of the stuff inside was like some kind of carved polished bone (plastic) and we found odd magical weapons/wands (laser swords and laser guns) and the denizens of the dungeons (the surviving aliens and their cargo/pets/experiments) were very unusual.
It was actually rather well done, *but* it can be so messed up too. The tech was charged (and ran out quite quickly) so as not to be too unbalancing. It was intended as a 'novelty' and to be short-lived. Had there been some alien invasion that was a long-lived and would have to be folded into the lore of the land, it would have been constantly problematic.
Cuddly stuff: OMG PLEASE NO. The end of ANY game - even those with a somewhat 'comic' feel - is when they start adding cuddly mounts or cuddly pets or cuddly onesies or cuddly anything really.
Real world events: How many ways can 'that holiday at the end of December' be represented in a role-playing game, I wonder? How many times can some devs try and make a 'cool fantasy version' of that fat guy in the red suit visiting everyone's house each year?
I used to like the holidays. Maybe I'm a cynical old man now, but for me it's been ruined by the overdose and it being crammed into every experience of my life from 3 months before the event until way-too-long afterward.
Please don't crowbar it into my fantasy game...
Combos: You really know a game is cashing in (and messing up) when they break out the zombie dinosaurs or Christmas pirates or cuddly ninjas. Yes, I'm looking at you again, WoW. Fricking Kung Fu Pandas? Game Over...
We all know that all fantasy has an element of 'trope' and can feel contrived. A lot of Tolkien's writings were based on very well known fairy stories and myths, but the difference was he was one of the first to make it 'serious' for consumption by an adult audience.
Tolkien made elves and dwarves and whatnot something with a solid, detailed and 'believable' background story, mostly gritty and grown up for once, and this kind of modern 'high fantasy' is what I think most of the fans (and devs) of Pantheon enjoy the most. When you mix it with other influences you often dilute and/or taint rather than add to it.
We've probably played (and enjoyed, to a lesser or maybe just different degree) games like WoW and Wildstar and Warhammer Online. Sometimes 'cute' and even 'silly' can be the basis of a game and sometimes we all enjoy that. But, when you drop cute/silly into an otherwise gritty/grown-up game you have to be *so* clever and careful not to mess it up and you'll usually fail to some degree anyway.
One of the things that the gaming world has suffered from is to try and gain wide appeal for every game. It's what Pantheon is supposedly *not* going to do. To try and fold in as many popular fantasy tropes as possible in order to try and grab as many 'fans' of those individual tropes as possible would be a mistake as much as to include all those mechanics that give wide appeal (that we so often talk about).
So far, VR appear to be doing a very good job of taking the confortable fantasy tropes we love and giving them a fresh twist but without going too bizarre. It's got to be a very tough thing to do, but so far they are doing a great job. I've loved all the lore.
I'll be chewing my fingernails in worry if they start talking about alien ninja pirates though... I'm not sure even VR could pull that off convincingly...
P.S. The other aspect of "too much" fantasy the OP worries about is the degree to which it is used. I think this is a problem for any fantasy setting. Magic = good. *Everything* being magical is bad. If everything is special, nothing is special.
To the OP; you got it wrong and completely backwards. Too much lore can kill a fantasy game by strangling it to death. Ok now for a slightly more serious response. Lore cannot be restrictive to the point that future opportunistic additions must be thrown in the trash can. If the lore is built properly then it will allow for some deviations. Here are my feelings of how lore fails (which leads to massive future restrictions); everything is known pre-launch by the playerbase; every detail, every date, every name, every creature, and every event.
There was a long discussion on Discord last month by .... person#1 who absolutely refused to play WoW because there were guns (blunderbusts if I recall) and goblin bombs or cars or something. His premise was that it did not belong at all in any period correct MMORPG focusng on magic and swords. Person #2 and a bit of person #3 maintained that if the lore allowed for it, then there is no reason for it to not exist. Then it migrated into a discussion of Real Earth History and when/where gunpowder was utilized first and ummm some Korean invention etc. .... Anyway it all went downhill from there.
The take-away is that a game doesn't need to be shackled by lore which may have its own shackles (sometimes unknowingly) to Real Earth History.
Everyone has their own singular game attribute that they emphasize above everything else. If Lore does it for you, great! But also be aware that it's so far down on some other peoples totem poles as to be almost considered a waste of money to place a priority on. I've made it no secret that Lore takes a backseat to other facets of an MMORPG specifically flawless game mechanics for me personally. If the game needs to expand in a given direction in the future AND the lore was built too constrictively to accomodate; I hope Lore looses every time. OTOH: if Lore specifically is built to restrict certain future tangents that the game may take, then it was a deliberate design decission and I would hope they would stick within the confines or boundaries that they self-imposed.
My response is along the same lines as internal consistancy.
Create as fantastic a universe as you want with natural laws supporting magic and other things impossible in the so-called real world - but then stick with it.
Have whatever happens and whatever players and enemies can do consistant with the rules you saw fit to establish.
In other words no deus ex machina please to support a desired plot result.
To the OP:
I know where you are coming from. I don't think fantasy is the right word though. Basically it comes down to if it makes sense in the world and enviroment. If you have a serious type of fantasy game with a certain art style and certain lore/art that is consistent with each other and then you see a My Little Pony mount riding on by that would be taking it too far.
So as long as the "fantasy" they add to the world makes sense and fits in the world, then more the merrier. But I do agree with you that there are definite lines that can be crossed in terms of too much out of place fantasy being added.
So long as something is consistent with the established world, I'm fine with pretty much anything. I love magitech/magic as technology in worlds where magic is semi-common. I love fantastical beasts and environments that stretch the boundary of imagination and comprehension. I love mysterious objects or places that could even be alien. I think with a world set-up like Pantheon - that is literally converging multiple universes - the potential is almost limitless.
MyNegation said:I think it is called "internal consistensy"
if the lore consistent with itself, then its fine.
This is a very good response.
EQ1 lost this 'internal consistensy' with the Gates of Discord expansion. We, the players, had just recently finished killing off all the Norrathian gods when, suddenly, there appears yet another wholly unknown continent filled with alien monsters from other dimensions who made the gods appear to be utter newbies. Then Omens of War took it even further. On then later on we find yet another unexplored continent in The Burning Sea filled with..yeah, you guessed it..pirates. Pirates and monsters who put the OoW monsters to shame. EQ1 totally jumped the shark.
To avoid the mistakes of the past, VR really needs to plan for the long game here. If they even think that at some point we will fight against the gods themselves, then make that the penultimate expansion. The last hurrah, so to speak. Do not let us kill the gods only to then find something else more powerful than the gods. Think about the long term progression and plan accordingly.
I think the Lore should draw lines. Solid lines that characters, races, classes should have to stay within. It can be fantastic lore, but still once it's implemented written and live, thats the law of the game. This is why lore is important and should be the first step of building a world.
Vandraad said:To avoid the mistakes of the past, VR really needs to plan for the long game here. If they even think that at some point we will fight against the gods themselves, then make that the penultimate expansion. The last hurrah, so to speak. Do not let us kill the gods only to then find something else more powerful than the gods. Think about the long term progression and plan accordingly.
Yes yes yes. Say if Nok'Tilsammos is the mightiest dragon ever in the histroy of Avenoal, then I sure as heck hope he's not even a targetable character in the game. EQ2 did this well with Nagafen where at release of the game, Naggy was just an NPC. 3 or 4 expansions in he became a level 100 aggroable mob (even though level cap was 80 or something) Then finally a few expasions later he was actually able to be fought.
If you're going to have written lore, don't have it so a rat in expansion number 3 is harder to kill than the end game raid mobs of the original release!! I agree.
Vandraad said:Do not let us kill the gods only to then find something else more powerful than the gods. Think about the long term progression and plan accordingly.
Interestingly enough I believe this is already the case in the Pantheon universe, there being something else more powerful than or otherwise beyond the gods.
Nephele said:Barin, I think what you're getting at is that if you allow player abilities to go too far in terms of their power or potential, it actually makes the game world less believable because it leads to everything feeling completely out of proportion. The stronger you allow player characters to be, the bigger the challenges that you have to make them face to make things feel "real". And you can only throw so many world-ending threats at them before it just starts to be a little ridiculous.
That's precisely what I meant, thank you for making that clear for others :)
Iksar said:Vandraad said:Do not let us kill the gods only to then find something else more powerful than the gods. Think about the long term progression and plan accordingly.
Interestingly enough I believe this is already the case in the Pantheon universe, there being something else more powerful than or otherwise beyond the gods.
If true, and the lore has hints, clues or rare myths and ancient stories about such things then this just reinforces the internal consistency. It wouldn't, then, be wholly unexpected to find that what we believe to be 'the gods' are but lesser beings in the greater scheme of things. EQ1 just went with the 'every expansion must have bigger and badder monsters' approach and lore/history be damned.
To your point, we do already know that the world of Terminus was created by the collision of world shards which exited in other dimensions or universes yet came together here in this place in this universe. This opens up the possibility of future collisions with other world shards that could have even more powerful beings. At least the lore has allowed for that possible future.
Redroostah said:
Can too much fantasy kill the lore in a game is what you asked. I don't think too much fantasy can, I feel that too much deviation of what made your game successful and draw an audience can.
Red
I agree with expansions in your feedback. I'ld like to add in there: As long as they don't deviate too much of the core-Lore of the game. Aka the main storylines and capabilities of characters. There is only so many times players can kill Gods and god-like creatures before one must stop and wonder, what their character itself is made up off. If it can sprout from a level 1 human and end up as a 150 God killing ranger...? There is only so much a good story telling / Loremaster can explain or cover up before things get stretched out too thin.
disposalist said:There is *definitely* a point at which it is "too much".
Let's look at some 'popular' stuff that's been shoe-horned into MMORPGs before: -
Tolkien made elves and dwarves and whatnot something with a solid, detailed and 'believable' background story, mostly gritty and grown up for once, and this kind of modern 'high fantasy' is what I think most of the fans (and devs) of Pantheon enjoy the most. When you mix it with other influences you often dilute and/or taint rather than add to it.
So far, VR appear to be doing a very good job of taking the confortable fantasy tropes we love and giving them a fresh twist but without going too bizarre. It's got to be a very tough thing to do, but so far they are doing a great job. I've loved all the lore.
Yeah, I was not aiming towards what do and don't you want to see in Pantheon. There is a long thread concerning that already. Bazrhim might fill that in for me.
The question is here purely about the concept: Can you break the Lore within a game by adding or writing too much fantastical things or high fantasy content within a game that already has put out a style of Lore.
To use your example...Tolkienish lore can have addition as a new Orc lord or halfling general makes an appearance or a new tribe of elfs has been found on Isle X. Or is it also acceptable to add the Flying Pegasus descending into the shire from the floating islands that drifted from a portal opened by the Orcs?
Do you see what I mean? Is it all acceptable as long as you have one Heck of a LoreMaster that write it in such a manner that it's within logic/reason in that world that is game X. Or do you find that not everything can be translated/pardonend by a good Lore Story...?
Barin999 said:disposalist said:There is *definitely* a point at which it is "too much".
Let's look at some 'popular' stuff that's been shoe-horned into MMORPGs before: -
Tolkien made elves and dwarves and whatnot something with a solid, detailed and 'believable' background story, mostly gritty and grown up for once, and this kind of modern 'high fantasy' is what I think most of the fans (and devs) of Pantheon enjoy the most. When you mix it with other influences you often dilute and/or taint rather than add to it.
So far, VR appear to be doing a very good job of taking the confortable fantasy tropes we love and giving them a fresh twist but without going too bizarre. It's got to be a very tough thing to do, but so far they are doing a great job. I've loved all the lore.
Yeah, I was not aiming towards what do and don't you want to see in Pantheon. There is a long thread concerning that already. Bazrhim might fill that in for me.
The question is here purely about the concept: Can you break the Lore within a game by adding or writing too much fantastical things or high fantasy content within a game that already has put out a style of Lore.
To use your example...Tolkienish lore can have addition as a new Orc lord or halfling general makes an appearance or a new tribe of elfs has been found on Isle X. Or is it also acceptable to add the Flying Pegasus descending into the shire from the floating islands that drifted from a portal opened by the Orcs?
Do you see what I mean? Is it all acceptable as long as you have one Heck of a LoreMaster that write it in such a manner that it's within logic/reason in that world that is game X. Or do you find that not everything can be translated/pardonend by a good Lore Story...?
Yes, those are things I do/don't want in Pantheon, but are also examples of 'bolt-on' fantasy that has ruined other games, sorry if that wasn't clear or you feel I was going on a tangent.
I think you absolutely can ruin the lore by adding things or stretching existing fantasy too far and then attempting to justify them by stretching the lore to accomodate. There is a point at which all that stretching breaks something.
No, not everything can be pardoned by even excellent lore writing, as there comes a point when the world no longer resembles anything like the world you signed up for.
"Or is it also acceptable to add the Flying Pegasus descending into the shire from the floating islands that drifted from a portal opened by the Orcs? "
My issue with this in games, is they use Pegasus as a species name, when Pegasus was the name of a winged horse in greek mythology.
I know when I am writing lore for my table top games I usually start by designing the worlds magic/energy/cost system. This will usually let me add what I want to without unballancing the game world. A good example is gun powder. It actually takes significant industry to make anything more than basic black powder so the mage guilds intentionally suppressed the industry in order to maintain their balance of power in the world, after all you can give a peasant a loaded gun and they can kill a knight but it takes decades to train a mage.