I kinda like mechanics that get people doing something other than just combat and focusing on their spell rotations. Especially if those actions are helped by some of the classes unique skills like rogue 'climbing' or Cleric/Summoner made walls, or similar skills.
For example, maybe there could be an encounter against a Boss that is in a 'cold climate' and it has special cold based armor that protects it from 50% of the incoming damage. But then there is a mechanic where a player may need to climb up to a ledge (or get carried by a handy hawk) and push a barrel of oil off the edge to splash into a trough being held in place by 2 other players that let's the oil run down the trough into spots on the ground under torches. Then another player needs to hit the torch with a range attack to get it to fall into the oil to ignite it. Then the tank needs to pull the Boss over into the fire to remove it's 'Frozen armor' and let the raid do full damage to the boss. The fires may only burn for 20 seconds and then go out letting the boss to re-freeze, requiring the group to get more oil under a different torch and light it up again. This could be a mechanic that adds a somewhat time limit to the fight, since you only have so many barrels of oil and torches in the room and once they are all used, if you haven't finished off the boss yet you are stuck fighting it at half damage.
Personal Likes:
-Tab targeting and Shift+Tab targeting (for reverse)
-Focus target (Sounds like the offensive/defensive target system will be similar)
-Visual indicators on hotbar keys (Like hotbutton being grayed out when target is out of range or ability is otherwise not available)
-Warm AoE indicators (warm meaning a light glow on the ground where AND slightly before a fireball explosion graphic actually lands without having to put Hot flashing/spinning/neon green ring on the ground before the fireball is even cast)
-Option to show floating health bars (over target's avatar) Perhaps have a knowledge based skill that increases with the more you kill an an enemy, the more you understand them and can eventually see their healthbars.
-Option to toggle target highlight (maybe with an effect over your target's head) so you can tell what you are actually targeting. (Quite frustrating in EQ1 to be fighting 5 "A Drakkel Wolf" and trying to tab target the one that isn't being CC'd because they all look identical, have the same name and using the mouse targets yourself 75% of the time.
-Separate inventory for keys (Key Ring)
-Separate inventory for items that are "exclusively" for quests - perhaps have a quest to obtain this special/magical bag of lore item holding.
-Manageable Mounts (Black Desert Online mount system is amazing... if you take your mount out of a stable it can be damaged/die, level up, requires food/drink, equip barding and when you dismount it can follow you or stay where you leave it (and likely be killed if too low level) in which case you have to walk to another city to buy a new horse or return to the stable your horse was last stored to pay to heal it after a long wait period.) https://blackdesert.info/mounts
-Toggle helm/cloak visuals
-Toggle non-combat outfit for RP in town
Personal Dislikes:
-EQ2's auto follow targeting system edit: for in combat (not /follow to follow party members)
-EQ2's skill/spell queue (Press 4 buttons and they trigger when able - promotes button mashing IMO).
-Terrible hitboxes for both PC and NPC (makes playing a melee highly undesireable when 30% of the time you are positioned incorreectly by 1-2 pixels).
-Several other things that we already know will not be included in PRotF
Kilsin said:Old vs New - What are some of the older and newer combinations of mechanics/features/systems that you - personally - would like to retain in Pantheon? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters
New? Personal Environments.
Old? Having one of each Role in a group adding tremendously to the effectiveness of the group, by creating and exploiting suscpetibilities, weaknesses, opportunities and status effects.
(and no, not just simple/restrictive Heroic Opportunities or Fellowship Maneuvers, those were fine, but a bit primitive compared to what's possible, although having them as well would be great)
Old
-Uncapped raid size (EQOA)
-Meaningful travel (EQOA/FFXI)
-Group-based PVE with longer TTK variable per mob (FFXI)
-Engaging XP grind {XP Chains, Skill Chains, Advanced NPC AI / Aggro Detection Methods}(FFXI)
-Extremely limited instancing (Dynamis from FFXI, Battlegrounds from WoW)
-FFA Competition {Bosses, resources, events, trade}(EQOA, FFXI)
-Meaningful death penalty {Non-trivial XP Loss with the possibility to de-level}(FFXI)
-High Quality Crafting {+1 version of loot/materials}(FFXI)
-Replay Value {Incentives to re-level and help keep all tiers of content populated with players}(FFXI)
-Ultra Rare World Loot Table (EQOA)
-Meaningful Racial Attributes/Passives (FFXI)
-Class Mastery {AA-Type System}(EQOA)
New
-Player Housing (Customization from EQ2/Wildstar, Epic open-world castle building from Vanguard)
-Seasonal/Temporary Events/Modes (League of Legends, Overwatch, PUBG){Bend the rules in controlled environments from time to time to add flavor)
-https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/pantheon_difference/
Old:
Harsher Death Penalty
Somewhat a sand box
Meaningful gear
Immersive enviroment
Slow progress
Longer fights
Less QoL mechanics
Classes that can't do everything
New:
Raid bosses with more mechanics
Better graphics
A more controlled loot system
Shared bank with alts
Intricate crafting system
Advanced AI
Ground mounts much later on in lvls
One very general comment - one very specific one.
Specific - I would like combat to focus on use of class abilities rather than on memorizing a script. I would like it to focus more on the character's abilities than the player's reaction time - witnin limits.
Thus - please no nonsense that some other games have where when you fight a boss you must be on point one at a certain time, then point two at a certain time, then use a specific ability at a certain time etc. The mobs use their abilities and the players use theirs and one group wins and one group loses.
Similarly no twich/action combat please. Yes combat is fast paced but give those of us that are older than the teens time to see what the mobs are doing and be able to click on our own abilities. If I want a shooter I know where to find them. I do not.
General - try to balance "old school" pain in the arse features used to slow down progress and make the world feel large with avoiding features that are just tedious.
On issues like mail, travel, bazaar selling versus broker selling, death penalty etc. some of us argue for extreme positions and sometimes that may be the way to go. But more often than not the answer that is best for the game and most likely to attract and keep new players than never played the old MMOs is neither extreme.
Go too far towards convenience, and you have another WoW on a small scale and without the enormous resources Blizzard has. No real reason to play it - you lose.
Go too far towards old school idealogical purity and you have most of us and a small number of new players that try it and like it. Not enough to keep the game going - you lose.
On most issues try to continue the type of thinking that led to the tentative decision to go with regional markets. Not nearly as convenient as a global auction house. Not nearly as original EQ-like as having all sales be by offer in chat channels or in a tunnel. Annoys both extremes but almost everyone can live with it. It isn't WoW. It isn't 1999 EQ. Months and months ago I was one of the many that weren't all that enthusiastic about the decision but the more I have considered it the more benefits to the game I see in the middle road.
Raids that have a soft cap that allows a range of +/- 5 players (you can be successful with 30-35 players). Maybe the mob scales slightly, but it is flexible enough that you dont need an exact number to do it, but you cant zerg it either. A 10-15% buffer in raid size makes filling out a raid roster easier and allows you to absorb a few extra players, versus making them sit the bench if your raid is already full.
Raid lockouts, but maybe a little more sophisticated than just a simple lockout that expires in n days. Example: you have 6 days left on a lockout, but if the mob is not killed by another raid party within n hours (maybe 24 hours), the lockout automatically expires for everyone.
More frequent raid target spawns and more raid content. Enough content should be available often enough for a given sever pop to minimize an oligarchy of control over raid content.
A blend of MDD and banish mechanics on raid targets. Example: two guilds engage a raid target simultaneously, who ever does the most damage in the first 5 or 10 percent of health gets to continue. The rest get banished to the zone line and wiped from the hate list for the duration of the fight. Once this threshold has been realized, anyone who is not on the active hate list cannot enter the vicinity of the raid without being banished. Once the hate list is completely clear (everyone dies or the target is dead) this resets. If a group manages to grief another raid before this threshold is met and wipes another guild, we need prompt GM intervention for these scenarios.
Fast travel in classic EQ is perfect, but maybe add a spell reagent needed for porting that all players can farm / sell. Keep it limited to wizard spires and druid rings. Make these spells require a reagent that anyone can farm and sell to help offset the cost of paying other players to do it. Players can sell these reagents and use the gold to pay for a port, or use them to barter with the player providing the port. Fast travel and porting shouldn't be available until later levels and should be progressively unlocked, with some of the best spire/circle locations being epic in nature near end level.
Class specific speed buffs, bard selo, SoW, etc for faster foot travel. Maybe also tie these to a reagent that anyone can get. Also progressive, with the best speeds obtainable at end levels.
Boats to other continents should be available if you cannot find a port. They shouldn't take longer than 5-10 minutes though. If an ocean zone exists, ala Ocean of Tears, make multiple boats available. Provide express boats that just pass through the zone, as well as other boats that go to various POIs within the zone for adventuring.
Bind locations and naked corpse runs, with nearby graveyards. If you die and recover your corpse and gear, you get a significant chunk of the lost xp back (as well as your gear), but less than what you would get from a rez. After 30 minutes to 1 hour, you have the option of summoning your corpse at a nearby graveyard with the penalty of some gold payment and no xp recovered. The penalty should be so high that no one wants to do it unless they have an emergency and cannot do a proper CR. After n days without CR, your corpse automatically appears at the nearest graveyard and the player incurse the full penalty. Class specific corpse recovery skills are required in this scenario, dragging, summoning, resurrection, etc. Make cr a thing that rewards a player for doing it, but introduce a way to get your corpse back in a reasonable time so you aren't stuck helpless indefinitely either.
Rare named mobs in dungeons should have the ability to roam, and spawn in a few locations. Based on what we have seen so far, I expect some pull camps, but let's not encourage poop sock camps for days at a time. Also, some named mobs in an area could share some of the same loot, but maybe not all.
Some opportunity for crawling as well. Maybe some dungeons are somewhat linear with a different entrance and exit and you have to progress through it from start to finish (i.e. maybe you have to keep dropping down to new areas and can only go forward, not backward). You can still zone into an exit area for CR reasons, but you cannot pass through a gate/door to do it in reverse. Or, dungeons need to be numerous and expansive enough that groups can control entire wings, or sections of it with incentives to move around the area they claimed. Rather than claiming a room with maybe 5-10 mobs, they claim a section, or wing, that they have to move around in from room to room. Something like a smaller dungeon, or wing, within a larger overall dungeon. This requires enough content to spread players around. Loot placement is also important so that players are spread around the world efficiently.
Some damage avoidance mechanics (aoe, environmental, cone damage, etc), but not so intense as some of the modern games. The game shouldn't be about who can click and dodge the the fastest. I would rather see group synergy and tactics be the primary way of dealing with combat mechanics. Classes should bring unique utility and tools to the group to handle various combat encounters. If a fight goes sideways, there should be some quick discussion about the fights mechanics (i.e. players standing in wrong spot) and damage avoidance, but the majority of the discussion should be around each class opening their spell books and contemplating different combinations of spells and abilities to succeed. These combinations should vary to some degree depending on which encounter they are tackling. It sort of seems that this is already the direction the dev team is heading. It just needs to have enough variety to be interesting. I.E., "what if I tried this stance, and you tried this hymn, so that the wizard can use this ability more effectively, while also allowing the cc to be more effective", etc.
I tend to lean toward more of the classic EverQuest design and mechanics, with some modern flare (like an option to summon your own corpse to a graveyard with a high penalty). More of what I want to see is a slight blend of old with new (leaning more old than new), to reduce the punishment found in classic EQ, but still retain that open world feel and player inter-dependency.
Combat Ability Chains...Vanguard
Bandoliers for weapon swapping...EQ
Trebuchet and Ballista...ESO
Hate List...Vanguard (without any UI meter)
Shared Bank Account...EQ/Vanguard
"Epic" Quest, Weapon/Gear/Flying Mounts...EQ/VG
GM Events...VG
Raid Mob Lockouts...VG
Old :
- customising characters, dying armor and clothes (City of Heroes , SWTOR)
- epic class and craft quests (EQ, Lotro)
- exploration quests (in the style of Floyd Dewitt "hidden" quest in Lotro)
- meaningful crafting with a well designed UI (FF14)
New :
- True AI
- At least somewhere real non scripted AI
- not forgetting AI
Old:
No item levels/level requirements, rare and powerful items can drop in any level range and be strong even until max level. Tired of the level gear treadmill and how fake it feels.
Longer combat where buffs and especially debuffing matters
Death penalties/de-leveling
Want/Pass looting rules
Strong class identities not dumbed down with splits/trees/specializations.
Meaningful travel/a world not full of quick travel shortcuts.
Faction mattering and being far more deep than a single faction per city/area, also being fairly difficult to really adjust without focused dedication.
Utility spells being very useful even if limited.
Player to player trading instead of AH/simple buying and selling.
Dungeons with rich lore and wide level ranges/reasons to come back later on.
Mobs that you can't just run through/past only to have them snap back to their spawn after 30 feet.
New:
Full UI customization/skinning, including being able to replace spell and ability icons/art.
Not being completely blocked out of content by other players; top end progress relying almost entirely on player skill not batphones/p-socking.
Spells that have unique environment/conditional bonuses. Things like Wet + Lightning or Ice producing special benefits, or Oil soaked + Fire.
Weather having an effect on spells/skill like above.
Strong grouping/LFG assistance.
I tend not to think in terms of old or new, but rather in terms of what has each game in the genre done well, and how could that be incorporated into the pantheon experience? It doesn't matter if that game released last year or 20 years ago, every game has ideas we could leverage.
At a super high level, what I want is for every experience in the game to have meaning, depth, and diversity. By meaning, what I am getting at is that the specific experience should matter to players in It's own right, and not just be a means to an end. For example, when I think about travel, It's not just about saying it should take 10 minutes to cross a zone or whatever, but it's about all the experiences that a player should have while doing that. Are there bandits on the road? An unexpected quest opportunity? A change in the weather? A merchant selling rare goods? If all we care about when designing travel experiences is how long it takes to go from A to B, we are missing the opportunity to really enrich the game experience for everyone. The same sort of thought process can apply to any aspect of the game. Spells and abilities. Crafting. Dungeon and encounter design. And those are just a few.
By depth, what I mean is that every aspect of the game should have more to it than what is on the surface. Players should really have to consider the choices they make, and there should never be one answer or approach that is always and clearly the best. This applies to character progression and abilities, to equipment, to how you approach combat or crafting, but even to things like which path you take through the mountains or where you decide to log out for the night.
By diversity what I am really getting at is that people should not all pick the same choices. Within classes, people should be encouraged to specialize their characters differently, with different gear and ability choices, and those should be equally effective in their own way. In terms of content, there should never be a "best" location for xp or loot, but instead players should be encouraged to branch out and take different paths through the game content, and not penalized for that. In terms of playstyle, the game should support and reward different playstyles. Someone who is very focused on raiding should have plenty of opportunity, but someone who is more focused on role play and immersion should get lots of support from the game as well.
Anyway, those are just my thoughts at a high level. :)
I'm not going to write a pavement here. I don't feel like arguing for preferences or simply, tastes of old and new brands, alcohol or such.
Old : Tabletop RPG inspired designed, immersion, complexity
New : Graphisms (polygons, shaders, textures, spell effects and animations) , data speed, gameplay evolved, character and gear personnalization.
I feel like we know the direction most mechanics/systems are going already but I'll list some that are important to me anyway whether that is the direction Pantheon will be going or not. Unsure where to draw the line at Old/New? I guess I'll just list some of my preferences without the Old/New part.
*All players being on a level playing field is very important. Nothing that allows a person to buy even the slightest advantage by spending extra money. It is a slippery slope. Give players an inch and they will take a mile. 3rd party programs can be a major issue. This includes multiboxing imo. If there was a server where these types of things were more strictly regulated I would embrace it. This can end up driving players away.
*Exp and Level Loss
*Non-Leashing Mobs
*Varied character creation options (not cosmetic) including stat adjustments, skill/ability/spell choices etc. Either/Or choices where 1 character can't have it all. This encourages uniqueness.
*Similar choices to above, after creation, as the character advances. Either/Or type of choices so everyone isn't essentially the same within a race/class combo after they have attained everything.
*Group encounters targeted at many different group sizes from as many as 100 people to as few as 1 group with lots of options in in between. I especially like content balanced towards 2 groups and content balanced towards the 80-100 people range.
* AHs are a yes from me. I know it's a hot topic.
* No multiquesting. Earn it on the character who wants it.
* Armor/Weapons with a specific look that can't be altered so that a player can know what a player has without inspecting them.
* Yes to grinds/timesinks/artificially extended content. Players need a way to continually progress their characters or we will take a break or quit all together.
*Minimal cut scenes/voice overs. It's done poorly more often than not. In the case of SWtOR it was enough to be the main factor in driving me away.
That's a good start I guess.
Awareness of your surroundings and encounters.
Old:
Getting into a fight and realizing you aren't going to make it. Or a bad pull and you realize you aren't going to make it. You make the decision as a group to hightail it to the zone. TRAINS! I loved trains! Get out of the way if a train was coming through. I know full well there are a lot of people who despise trains. I have read many posts and posters regarding the subject. I'm not here to start an argument. I absolutely loved that there were trains and everyone had to have enough situational awareness to know to get the heck out of the way or even zone themselves.
The corollary of that is also realizing a bad pull and also realizing that hightailing it to the zone is probably not a good option so you go down fighting and figure out some way to win. All in the heat of the moment. That's what I want.
New:
Not just situational awareness but environmental awareness. Paying attention and making a judgement call or making a choice on whatever it happens to be. Even an animation for a melee strike or a spell - being aware of what may be happening and do something to mitigate it or avoid it. That scorpion encounter in D&D Online comes to mind (although also old, but the concept and implementation can be so much more involved and compelling. A scorpion would burrow underground in the heat of battle. Anyone that had it targeted would lose it as a target. A sound of dirt being moved (earthed; dug up) would accompany a graphic on screen of the ground being disturbed. Up would pop the scorpion and sting whomever was closest, many times from behind. When that happened being in a group and everyone looking around for the telltale sign of disturbed dirt and the scratching sound and moving around and trying to get out of the way. Didn't help that there was often another scorpion involved in the encounter so you also had to contend with that.
I feel games of the MMO variety sure could use a lot more situational and environmental awareness. Not just positioning for encounters (to the back, to the side, up high, etc), but also the land around you (activating or activated traps) and the NPCs and monsters around you. Could be a series of conversations one can engage in with the proprietor of a local establishment. Your responses may get the proprieter to wave his hand in a summoning motion which brings a big beefy bouncer type into the engagement. If you didn't notice the hand gesture you wouldn't know what was coming. It doesn't even have to be conversation engagements, it could also be surrounding your actions while within the establishment.
Simple desires. Velious era EQ1 port system or better. Boats that show up often and provide meaningful travel. Meaningful Corpse Runs. Afk travel system to major cities for those of low level or just lazy - caravan. High end raid level caravan system for those that have limited time - guild caravan? Ability to raid level specific content - i loved how naggy/vox were level specific. Quests completely tied to individual - no multiquesting, ever. Lower no drop loot timer to avoid selling of loot - or just make everything droppable - make loot not so exaggeratedly good so that economy is biased.
I do not like the whole pitting of old vs new thing that seems so common. Instead I just look at games in terms of what I think has been done well and what hasn't.
- UI customization
- Horizontal progression and meaningful content at all levels, not just "end game" (honestly, no MMO has gotten this quite right, except for maybe GW2 but only because levels don't really mean anything in GW2)
- Customization of character's armor appearance via wardrobe system (AND DYES! Preferably more than one dye channel on each piece of gear!)
- Economy-wise... mail to other players AND to my own alts, some form of auction house, and player-to-player trade
- Need/greed/pass loot system that takes into account armor class (so players cannot roll Need on gear they cannot use)
- Bosses that are more than tank-and-spanks. Get creative with mechanics and use of environment. Study WildStar's boss encounter designs. Build from that.
- The ability to write custom macros. Most critical, from a healer perspective, is the mouse-over macro, so that I can simply hover my mouse over a player's unitframe to cast a spell, instead of having to click on it.
- In-depth emote system with high quality animations!
- Player housing (personal housing preferable, instanced preferable as it allows for greater customizability) - emulate Rift/WildStar/ESO
- Questing that is beyond just "collect ten bear butts"
- Class-specific quests! Heck, race-specific quests!
- I do not like XP loss and deleveling.
- Focus on lore. Lore books to discover and read, info about creatures or NPCs to learn (perhaps from fighting them/interacting with them) - and some way to collect them in a UI so you can go back and read them whenever you want.
- Obviously, top-notch graphics and proper optimization
- Quest items (such as things you have to collect for a quest, or whatever) going into their own separate Quest Inventory
- Open world that is not TOO populated. Each and every corner of the world does not have to have mobs. Also, make most buildings enterable and plenty of empty ones that roleplayers can make use of (especially important if there is no personal housing)!
- I must admit, I prefer instanced dungeons to purely open world, as you can do more with the encounters and you don't have to worry about the boss not being up during your narrow window of playtime.
- Probably other things I can't think of?
Something else I wanted to add:
I liked EQ2's "concentration" ability for buffing where you had a kind of mental endurance meter that drained depending on the number of buffs you kept up. If I remember right certain buffs/spells required more concentration than others so if you were an enchanter you could either have up a bunch of buffs like group haste/resource regen/increased threat for tank/increased max mana, or you could choose one of those and have something like charm going.
I absolutely hated EQ1's requirements to have to spend 5mins every 10-40mins trying to buff a party and regain mana... that became the role of that class in a party (boring!!!).
This is possibly the finest thread I've yet seen on the forum. Nice work guys, many ideas I now remember after seeing them here, and many more I never thought of.
I'm going to be playing a monk, so:
Old
The option of making a VIABLE bare hands monk, no weapons. Many other games like EQ1 tried this, but fell prey to weapon creep eventually. I'd like to see a viable build of a monk bare handed all the way to end game. I'd like to see the monk run faster (5% maybe) than other classes too. I'd liek to see the monk get a weight penalty if overweight. If there's alignments in the game, I'd like to see monks as lawful.
New
I'd like to see chaining of combat skills (this seems already to be present here) and EPIC weapons. For the Monk, this might be a spell for his hands and feet. I'd also like to see an Asian feel to the monk. There's plenty of lore available for this, and I'd like to see an "element of religion" like the current Chakra, Ying Yang etc.
Kilsin said:Old vs New - What are some of the older and newer combinations of mechanics/features/systems that you - personally - would like to retain in Pantheon? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters
I hate to bring up an old topic, but one of the old systems that I would like to see retained is Mentoring.
Now, I am not talking about a poorly programmed and easily abused system like some games have. But, a solid meth D of allowing higher level toons play with lower level toons and still progress.
This system greatly enhances the community by allowing mixed groups of vets and newbies and simultaneously increases replayability of lower level zones. But, most importantly, it allows me to play with others of varying styles and playtimes.
Personally, I have a lot of time to dedicate to playtime, easily 40 hours a week. I enjoy raiding, questing, and social play. I have friends in high end guilds, a wife with less playtime and 5 kids. Without mentoring, I would have to create about 10 different toons and keep them at various levels in order to play with everyone that I want to enjoy time with. This is an insurmountable task, and not very enjoyable.
With a solid mentoring system, I could play with all my friends with just a few characters. This allows me to build a consistent reputation on one character and still enjoy a variety of friends.
The easiest way to prevent abuse is to simply decide what the max stats should be at each level and reduce the toon to those stats when they are mentored down.
I really love exploration, discovery, and the feeling of working towards an item. Thus, I would like to see special items, gear, and skins having a quest chain or a series of tasks to complete before obtaining the item. I guess this idea is found more in older MMO's.
As far as newer MMO's, I would really like to see a fluid combat system where you don't just stand in one spot or in a corner and button mash until something is dead. I'm thinking of something like the GW2 dodge mechanic as an example.