Feyshtey said:Calling this crippling is an overstatement, and really only heavily impacted players lacking the capacity to invest.
Nobody called it crippling as an isolated thing. What is crippling is not using maps while others are (others will be, I will and so will the majority even if they are third party).
Naunet said:This is really strange to me, because I've only ever played MMOs that have in-game maps (and even minimaps!), and I still know all the zones and remember where everything is down to little details, random quest objectives, etc... even for zones/games I haven't been to in years.
Either I'm really weird, or people are massively exaggerating.
It isn't weird. You're just not a massive scrub. I know it sounds harsh but recognizing where you are is one of the easiest parts of learning a game.
If /loc is in the game (and it has to be, for troubleshooting & bug reporting) then a third party tool can read the chat log and plot your position every time you /loc in a third party window/program that, just like any other combat parsing program, is simply reading the output of a text file.
Not sure what else to say. The data is there, someone will do it. All you need then is a top down rendering of each zone, which, given it's Unity, is a trivial undertaking. Heck, it could even make adjustments for z-levels and multi-layer images by providing overlays.
@Naunet+Spluffen - You two must have a great memory for locations, but regardless I don't quite see the argument you're making. Are you saying that maps should be included because you don't need them? Are you saying that maps shouldn't be included because you can remember zone layouts well? I think the playerbase that is relevant to this discussion are those who use navigation tools to the detriment of their own gaming experience (I am one of those people). If a player can easily navigate by memory, then why should they care if there are maps or not?
However, my real motivation for joining this thread is to plug my regular line.
Not having maps encourages players to pay attention to their surroundings, remember the landmarks, and see the world. The /loc feature works to counter those goals entirely. If you think navigating by watching a dot move on a map is bad, then surely navigating by a stream of x,y coordinates is worse?
The discussion of maps is really a discussion of how you navigate and that is a practical matter. Players will use whatever is most efficient and accurate method. I've never had a more unpleasant navigating experience than using /loc in EQ. When I had been through an area often enough in EQ, then I would go by memory and it was wonderful, but boy was it terrible up until that point.
There are even compromises to be made for those who say "but how will I find my corpse if I die when I'm lost?", but I won't delve into them here, since I already have before.
Edit: vjek beat me to the punch. However, /loc can be included in the game for troubleshooting without impacting gameplay if it's encrypted in some fashion... I think.
Ainadak said:@Naunet+Spluffen - You two must have a great memory for locations, but regardless I don't quite see the argument you're making. Are you saying that maps should be included because you don't need them?
I can't speak for Naunet but my argument is tha tthere should be maps (without location indicators) because everyone (not literally but a majority) will use maps either way, even if they are third party.
Ainadak said:Not having maps encourages players to pay attention to their surroundings, remember the landmarks, and see the world. The /loc feature works to counter those goals entirely. If you think navigating by watching a dot move on a map is bad, then surely navigating by a stream of x,y coordinates is worse?
Agreed 100%, it should be removed and/or not implemented (I'm unaware if its in Pantheon).
Ainadak said:@Naunet+Spluffen - You two must have a great memory for locations, but regardless I don't quite see the argument you're making.
I do tend to have an eye for navigating with landmarks, even in real life, which I guess helps. xD Though it screws me over when trying to give directions, because I'm crap at identifying N/S/E/W. I was saying that having maps doesn't stop people from learning the zones, which is something people seemed to be arguing happens in MMOs with in-game maps. Numerous folk were talking about how not having a map lets them "actually" learn the zones, but by my own experience (all in games with maps), I learned the zones just fine and to just as much detail.
I’m surprised Kilsin hasn’t locked this thread, but what the heck I’ll add my two cents. As a casual player that gets lost a lot I make/use maps. At a certain point in the past I believe it was stated pretty firmly there would be no map in game, and that the belief was there would be third party maps that “someone” would make. Then iirc the scribe profession was mentioned as a possible cartographer. The last thing I remember was that cartography might make it in game post launch. I think there are probably people like me that get lost rather easily and they will look for some kind of map function, whether it be third party or home made. Telling people to just remember where they’ve been isn’t at all helpful. If you’ve no head for directions you’re just screwed. For me immersion (that dreaded overused word) is achieved by ..not.. needing to visit other (third party) web sites. I want all my info to come from Terminus and VR. I want Pantheonmmo.com to be the only website I ever visit. If I need to visit Pantheonmaps.com that’s a negative for me. I want to be able to be well versed in the game simply by playing the game. To me my character being able to make, buy, and sell maps in game promotes immersion. Perhaps someday there will be cartography but I’m not holding my breath, I’ll still love this game.
oneADseven said:Please check out the following link for Frequently Asked Questions: http://pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/8530/frequently-asked-questions
Here is an excerpt where maps are discussed:
34) Will there be a cartography profession?
Quote from Kilsin (07/13/2017) https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2420/maps-of-various-kinds/view/page/6
"Let's just take a deep breath and remember these are your personal opinions folks, some will love maps, some will despise them, either way, we have made our decision to not include maps in Pantheon, we will have an Atlas of the Terminus world and if people want to create their own maps externally, that is great, we encourage teamwork and the community coming together like that but we will not offer one in game and we have not decided on a cartography skill or not yet but it is something we could consider down the track.
If we get into testing and get overwhelming feedback that a map is needed, we can then look at options but for now, our focus is on getting the game into testing and that does not include a map."
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2420/maps-of-various-kinds ;; (Open)
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2962/mapping-mini-maps-quest-arrows ;; (Open)
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/988/world-maps ;; (Open)
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/6086/scribe-crafting-maps ;; (Open)
Thanks man!
As 1AD7 kindly pointed out, we currently have several threads already open discussing this topic so I will have to go ahead and close this one. Please continue the discussion in one of the already existing threads which can be found by typing "maps" into the search function.