Hi together,
it seems a little bit too early to ask my question: What comes after the release?
There is one thing which I always see in other MMOs after a few month/years: The starting areas are almost empty. In most MMOs this is no problem, most of the content can be played without a group. But for a game like Pantheon which requires groups I can hardly imagine how new players will be motivated when there is no one who will group with them. But new players will be needed to keep Pantheon alive.
I hope you understand now that my starting question should be answered before the release. It's not the most important, but it is important.
I'm currently playing Defiance 2050 and I see there an interessting feature. The enemies grow with you in strength. When I go back to the starting area, it is not possible for me to defeat them with a single bullet. Maybe a similar behaviour is also possible for Pantheon. If there are a lot of people in the area, maybe it requires a group of five players to defeat the enemies. If there are less players available, maybe a group of 3 players can defeat the same enemies.
Maybe some of you have better ideas?
Your fear is not origional and you are not the first to ask about this kind of thing. VR has answered this many many times, and so I won't go into a lot of detail here since you can go read through the past threads on this subject. But the guys at VR are very aware of this... they are all seasoned MMO devs and players and know what can happen and have plans to deal with these kinds of concerns.
crazysyd102 said: The enemies grow with you in strength.
I know that other games have done this kind of thing, but I really dislike it and I never play games if this is the feature. What is the point of getting stronger if everything else gets stronger too? why not just stay level 1 and fight level 1 enemies the entire game since it doesn't matter if you level up. Why get epic gear if the enemies just scale to be just as difficult no matter your strength.
In my opinion, MMOs like this need to have the ability for players to be under powered and over powered for content, or what's the point?
One thing to keep in mind is that this game is Pro-Twinking, which means that months/years after release, the abundance of elite items floating around the economy and within individual shared banks will make early level soloing vastly more effective than it will be at launch. What took a full group at launch, might very well be duoable or even soloable down the road with a fully twinked character. And, even if someone is brand new to the game, odds are they will be able to pick up some relatively elite items for dirt cheap on the market.
The overall answer to your concern though is re-playability. Alternate accounts/characters. Alts. With competition for this type of game minimal and end game raiding likely being spaced out a little bit and not even guaranteed due to an open world, many high level players will get bored. As long as the various classes are unique and dynamic as to represent a fun and new playstyle, they'll make alts which will help with actual new players and their experience. As others have mentioned, the mentoring system can be useful in the early to mid-level ranges as well.
The one thing we've seen with EQ and WoW is that revamping starting areas and changing the newbie experience always fails and just annoys people. And one of the keys to longevity in an MMO is the feeling of gaining power and improving your character. One of the best aspects of EQ1 was being able to go back to areas you struggled with originally and just wrecking the place later on as you accumulated more powerful gears and spells. I think this is a necessity of a healthy MMO, especially one centered around a subscription model.
Mathir said:One thing to keep in mind is that this game is Pro-Twinking, which means that months/years after release, the abundance of elite items floating around the economy and within individual shared banks will make early level soloing vastly more effective than it will be at launch. What took a full group at launch, might very well be duoable or even soloable down the road with a fully twinked character. And, even if someone is brand new to the game, odds are they will be able to pick up some relatively elite items for dirt cheap on the market.
As I understand it Yes and no. A high level item can be given to a lower level player, but once given the item will be twinked-down to match a weapon comprable to the weapons obtainable at that level, maybe slightly higher in one stat. One of the mechanics may be: yes the weapon is good but you dont have the skill to use it. Looks good in the hand, but cant swing it to do damage. When you get to the higher level then yes, weapon in all its glory is useable by you at its original stats/attribute level. But at a lower level will be slightly better than what you can get normally and a level appropriate quest item may be a bit better still in some stats or attributes compared to the twink item that has been twinked down from being handed over to said twink.
So groupable content will not be soloable with a twink item, although there will be some content that is soloable, as normal or BAU (business as usual) at a given level.
Horizontal progression will have something to do with this as well. my initial concept of horizontal progresion was- snakes in newbie zones can still kill you after you have "leveled" 20 levels, but you will be better at killing them. If you stand and do nothing- dead. but I think too many people like the endorphin reward of getting a level so levels will probably be in and skill will be important to horizontal leveling.
EQ1 did the same thing with its items that Pantheon is talking about doing, specifically limiting the level when procs may occur and having the damage values capped by your weapon skills. Same thing. You could still face roll equivalent level content when you were twinked out, some classes much better than others. While one item might not allow you to run amok (though, a great weapon actually might), a full set of items likely will, at least to a vastly improved extent.
They really seem to just be mimicking EQ1's approach at this point with the added option of mentoring. And I'm fine with that, I thought EQ1 was great for rollling alts or power leveling a friend that came to the game late.
I'm actually quite worried every time MMOs release expansions, its a trauma I suffered with the release of The Burning Crusade. Expansions for games I had played before (mostly RTS games) were proper expansions in the sense that they expanded the game that was already there whereas TBC seemed more like a sequel, revamp or replacement for World of Warcraft. My problem was that they added a new "world" with new zones, a higher level cap and started simplifying the previous world, something they called "catch-up mechanics". In effect it made the vast majority of the game world and content therein irrelevant to most players.
I'd much rather see Pantheon (or any MMO) add new things to already existing zones. I'm also skeptical to increasing level cap since, at least in TBC, items that were trivial to aqcuire at level 61 or 62 far surpassed even some level 60 raid loot which was comparably much harder to get. I'd rather then see something like the AA system I've been reading about or some other way to keep building your character outside of loot that isn't an increased level cap.
Adding more things isn't a bad thing but if it completely undermines the existing things then it sure is. I also think its a very expensive way to go about it. How often does WoW release expansion packs? Must be every other year or so. Half-way through the run of these expansions people already start talking about "content drought". This definitely wouldn't have to be the case if they had added to the game instead of completely replacing it. I don't know the budget but I can't imagine making something like Battle for Azeroth is cheap.
Spluffen said:I'm actually quite worried every time MMOs release expansions, its a trauma I suffered with the release of The Burning Crusade. Expansions for games I had played before (mostly RTS games) were proper expansions in the sense that they expanded the game that was already there whereas TBC seemed more like a sequel, revamp or replacement for World of Warcraft. My problem was that they added a new "world" with new zones, a higher level cap and started simplifying the previous world, something they called "catch-up mechanics". In effect it made the vast majority of the game world and content therein irrelevant to most players.
I'd much rather see Pantheon (or any MMO) add new things to already existing zones. I'm also skeptical to increasing level cap since, at least in TBC, items that were trivial to aqcuire at level 61 or 62 far surpassed even some level 60 raid loot which was comparably much harder to get. I'd rather then see something like the AA system I've been reading about or some other way to keep building your character outside of loot that isn't an increased level cap.
Adding more things isn't a bad thing but if it completely undermines the existing things then it sure is. I also think its a very expensive way to go about it. How often does WoW release expansion packs? Must be every other year or so. Half-way through the run of these expansions people already start talking about "content drought". This definitely wouldn't have to be the case if they had added to the game instead of completely replacing it. I don't know the budget but I can't imagine making something like Battle for Azeroth is cheap.
Yea, even EQ did this with Velious. They made the items better in the newer zones so more people would be privy to going in the velious content and leveling there. I am pretty sure they addressed this issue in a live stream, forgot which one, but said they are working to make sure that type of stuff doesn't happen. I think someone mentioned that FFXI had a good amount of expansions before the level cap was increased.
Gear is a very tricky thing to tune when you start getting into later expansions and have a lot of items. It feels that an easy fix to this is to make sure you don't make items that drop off certain mobs/bosses be better than the original content that have mobs/bosses equal in level no matter how far into the game you get. but the problem with that is most of their items are tradeable making twinking quite strong. So even newer players down the line will be out performed drastically unless they have stat caps per level, which they might do. Which I think they did with EQ, but people just went with raw hp and mana items. Anyways, they have a lot of experience that is both good and bad. So I am sure they are going to be addressing your concerns in the game in a manner that you will probably like.
Mathir said:EQ1 did the same thing with its items that Pantheon is talking about doing, specifically limiting the level when procs may occur and having the damage values capped by your weapon skills. Same thing. You could still face roll equivalent level content when you were twinked out, some classes much better than others. While one item might not allow you to run amok (though, a great weapon actually might), a full set of items likely will, at least to a vastly improved extent.
They really seem to just be mimicking EQ1's approach at this point with the added option of mentoring. And I'm fine with that, I thought EQ1 was great for rollling alts or power leveling a friend that came to the game late.
I'm sure they have learned a lot since then. The trivializing of content was mostly only possible due to flat +HP/Mana items, regen chest armor, and how poorly limitations worked for weapons passed down in terms of average damage and speed (damage caps or skill requirements didn't matter much for weapons that attack every 1.7 seconds). Those could all fairly easily be addressed.
Here are some links that would be helpful:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2463/can-pantheon-have-diplomacy-vg-soh-bards
Watemper said:Spluffen said:I'm actually quite worried every time MMOs release expansions, its a trauma I suffered with the release of The Burning Crusade. Expansions for games I had played before (mostly RTS games) were proper expansions in the sense that they expanded the game that was already there whereas TBC seemed more like a sequel, revamp or replacement for World of Warcraft. My problem was that they added a new "world" with new zones, a higher level cap and started simplifying the previous world, something they called "catch-up mechanics". In effect it made the vast majority of the game world and content therein irrelevant to most players.
I'd much rather see Pantheon (or any MMO) add new things to already existing zones. I'm also skeptical to increasing level cap since, at least in TBC, items that were trivial to aqcuire at level 61 or 62 far surpassed even some level 60 raid loot which was comparably much harder to get. I'd rather then see something like the AA system I've been reading about or some other way to keep building your character outside of loot that isn't an increased level cap.
Adding more things isn't a bad thing but if it completely undermines the existing things then it sure is. I also think its a very expensive way to go about it. How often does WoW release expansion packs? Must be every other year or so. Half-way through the run of these expansions people already start talking about "content drought". This definitely wouldn't have to be the case if they had added to the game instead of completely replacing it. I don't know the budget but I can't imagine making something like Battle for Azeroth is cheap.
Yea, even EQ did this with Velious. They made the items better in the newer zones so more people would be privy to going in the velious content and leveling there. I am pretty sure they addressed this issue in a live stream, forgot which one, but said they are working to make sure that type of stuff doesn't happen. I think someone mentioned that FFXI had a good amount of expansions before the level cap was increased.
Gear is a very tricky thing to tune when you start getting into later expansions and have a lot of items. It feels that an easy fix to this is to make sure you don't make items that drop off certain mobs/bosses be better than the original content that have mobs/bosses equal in level no matter how far into the game you get. but the problem with that is most of their items are tradeable making twinking quite strong. So even newer players down the line will be out performed drastically unless they have stat caps per level, which they might do. Which I think they did with EQ, but people just went with raw hp and mana items. Anyways, they have a lot of experience that is both good and bad. So I am sure they are going to be addressing your concerns in the game in a manner that you will probably like.
Thanks for pointing this out Watemper and Spluffen. Expansions have been a concern of mine as well. I have faith that these concerns can be addressed.
Perhaps there will be an emphasis on new content for early levels, enticing players to reroll to experience this content. This could be staggered with endgame expansion releases, marking two different type of expansions, traditional endgame expansions and low level expansions. A full expansion of nothing but lowbie content could entice players into rerolling and give new players a reason to hop into the game even late into its lifespan.
I would love to see a full expansion of:
1. New quests and storylines, fleshing out the lore, characters, and world itself.
2. New dungeons, the larger the better! Make us crawl through new lowbie dungeons!
3. New low level zones. This shouldn't happen often, though, since increasing the size of the world can reduce the population of any given zone as the population is difused among more total zones.
4. New events, like:
A wizard boss appears in the zone, altering the climate or debuffing the entire zone. The event ends when the players band together to defeat him.
An ogre camp finally spills over into allied territory, invading friendly farms and cities, murdering townsfolk and unwary afkers :D
An ambassadorial expedition intends to travel to another faction's major city (escort quest, everyone's favorite). Protect it for unique rewards. Bonus immersion points if new quests are created while the Ambassador is stationed remotely.
5. Lowbie raids! I'm not sure if low level raids are planned already, but if they aren't, it would be interesting to see them in a later patch or expansion. Low level raids might be a hard sell if populations are too low to support them.
6. Survival mode. A new ruleset for freshly made characters that imposes hunger and thirst mechanics, disease and exposure, even sanity and morale, and tie into new quests, items, and gear. Do you wear that kickass new robe in the middle of a frozen forest, or do you sacrifice stats for a winter coat? New quests can focus on particularly brutal locales; volcanos, madness inducing magical caves, and perpetual blizzards, where under the new system even acclimatization magic isn't sufficient to ward off the effects of exposure indefinitely. Survival mode may tie into the climate/atmosphere system perfectly, imperfectly, or not at all; depends on the implementation.
7. Hard mode. This could come in a variety of flavors, but my favorite and probably the most conducive to the tenets of Pantheon are quest chains that alter the nature of existing dungeons and provide story to justify the change. However, even this type of hard mode has a major flaw: how does one engage a hard mode in an area shared by others? A more difficult mob configuration should be limited to a single area of a zone at any given time, and players who want normal difficulty can simply avoid that area until the event expires.
What I don't want to see:
Instances, segregating players unnaturally.
New hardcore servers, since they prompt players to leave existing servers for the new server, splitting pre-existing communities.
Phasing, which completely breaks immersion and limits social encounters since players can be in the exact same spot but be invisible to each other based on the instance of the world they are in.
8. Releasing a wave of new classes, preferably one from each role to avoid oversaturation of any given role. This would create an impetus for a surge of alts. It will also lure people who have wanted to reroll into a previously existing class into starting that class, because a significant (one hopes) portion of the population is leveling again for the new classes. For this reason I would not recommend releasing new classes one at a time; save them until an assortment of classes have been built and testing, then release them all at once for maximum effect.
I prefer them to worry about releasing the game - heck getting to alpha.
Things that come after can ...come after. Though I certainly agree that planning ahead is very good when it is feasible.
I can think of many things that will give an impetus for a "surge of alts" or just as good people starting with alts and not speeding any of them up quickly.
Having different characters in the same class play significantly differently (not necessarily through using an AA type system). Having racial choices matter. Having multiple starting towns and quest lines giving some background into different races. Sorry to name that game but WoW did this well. Having crafting important but no one character able to do too many things.
One thing is the sine qua non to having alts - having enough character slots to create them. A reasonable number with a subscription and I don't at all mind paying real money to get more than a reasonable number.