I think it was when Luclin came out that they completely remade all of the character models, except they still left the old ones behind, and players could choose which they wanted enabled per race/gender. This was so awkward... I knew what my character looked like in the model I was using but didn't know what I looked like for people using the alternate model. I recently watched an EQ video and saw that Kobolds and Frogloks were all changed... When I look back on EQ though, the final nail in the coffin for me was when they revamped Freeport. The place that I started, and spent most of my time in (NFP was the auction zone on my server) was just suddenly... gone. I'm of the opinion that once the game is out adding content is great, adding animations, zones, NPCs, maybe changing some assets like a wall being knocked down in a city during a world wide GM event or something is all well and good. But to just completely remake a zone felt so wrong to me. Not knowing whether someone sees my character the way I did, or in some other way that they pick felt weird too. How does the community feel about this?
I don't think VR should be afraid of doing zone revamps and remakes at all. Way too many games suffer from too much expansion outward instead of making changes to what is already there. Even by Kunark, classic EQ could have had an entire expansions worth of content by just revamping/reimagining a fair number of old world zones that were mostly ghost towns.
I think in some instances it can be beneficial... for instance, revamping Cazic Thule was great - it went from a zone no one used to a high level one that had great drops, lots of danger, and was a lot of fun. They kept the same zone layout, same assets, and same feel though. But revamping a main city by completely removing the old one and replacing it with something ENTIRELY different, with a different layout, different feel, didn't feel like being given something new.. it felt like losing something. They could have revamped it through a GM event that caused something to happen, maybe knock down some walls, destroy some buildings, and then have them get replaced by new ones that have reasons for replacing them. Then it would be an evolution, and one that makes sense within the world. But when suddenly Freeport was just replaced it made no sense to me - my suspension of disbelief was interrupted as I explored a place I thought I knew, only to have it be some strange alternate reality where nothing was familiar.
I think this is where EQ Next was going to shine (if the promise was real). They talked about if you killed Orcs long enough (no idea what the time frame was. 60 days? no idea) the Orcs King would show up. spark an all out War,(they called it some Major event, not sure of the term they used), but, once the Orc King was defeated, orcs would relocate and new mobs would take over that area. Those mobs could be higher or lower level than what was previously there.
They talked about how if you started an alt X amount of time later, leveling would be a completely different experience because there may not be Orcs anywhere near your starting area. They may have been forced to move so far away that you may not encounter them until you were Lev 30. the orcs would also BE lev 30 in their "new home" instead of lev 10 in their OLD home. I think THAT is the kind of thing NEEDED to move MMO games forward.
Named mob "Bob the King" drops Awesome staff ABC. Well, after a War event, Bob was forced to make a new home, in a differnent dungeon, and he may also be a different level. Maybe he learned from his mistakes and now his Awesome-staff ABC is even better and he's now a little tougher to kill. NPC leveled from 30 to 35 etc.
I think EQ Next was cancelled because it promised something "like" that, and Sony/DBG knew they couldn't deliver that. I don't make MMO games, so I don't know what they would take.
Until MMO games can dynamically change content like that, it will be the same ole, same ole.
World of Warcraft was able to "touch" the idea with Phasing. If I had been to an area and fixed the evil that was causing issues, instead of field burning in fire, when I travel thru there it's fields of green and is full of Wild life instead of Imps and Bad guys.
Hope I get to play an MMO one day that can deliver all that was promised in EQ Next.
I get super sad when stuff vanishes for good. :(
Iksar said:I don't think VR should be afraid of doing zone revamps and remakes at all. Way too many games suffer from too much expansion outward instead of making changes to what is already there. Even by Kunark, classic EQ could have had an entire expansions worth of content by just revamping/reimagining a fair number of old world zones that were mostly ghost towns.
Agreed. In fact I support VR going back to zones and adding to them. Perhaps that dungeon experienced and earthquake and openings to new tunnels appeared, or that the inhabitants have been gradually expanding their fortress. Why should the world be static? VR has said they do not want 'old' zones to become empty. What better way to keep players revisiting places from their past than to have those places change over time?
Caveat: This is a world, but it is a game. Game elements in general also consist of solving mazes. NFP was a maze, all starting cities were initially. Not complicated mazes, but a maze none-the-less where you had to discover the pathway out- and to the bank, heh.
Part of an increasing sense of self-worth or accopmlishment was endorphined by being able to quickly navigate the maze- (without maps, remember!) and muscle memory. It felt good and also kicked in a bit of nostalgia when you retunred home, and also felt good when you helped show newbies around as well as the pride in knowing they were ogle-ing your 17th level armors and impressive 2-hander. It became a pride thing.
So I think the frustration for me came from this: when that maze gets changed- yeah its annoying. I cant find anything anymore and suddenly I'm lost in a place where I started as being lost but cognitively "leveled" up from being lost to being unafraid and accomplished. Changing the environment suddenly made me feel inadequate in that environment that I made comfortingly familiar and instead made it another maze I was not ready for. Or more specifically a maze I did not want to have to change my mind set to learn like the heightened mindset when in a dungeon and trying to figure out where the next turn is.
Now, keeping the maze and sprucing it up? no problem: slapping luclin models on the dwarf heads in najena and gif's of dripping blood from those heads, awesome. Adding a hallway to the maze? no problem- never saw THAT before where does it g....LOADING PLEASE WAIT. Awesome- quick lets run back and get people!.
While i do agree with the OP and how EQ1 made some misteps here is my point of view on a few things:
VR is taking the time to create the character models and art structure they want ingame for the long-run. Also, with the tools they have they can tweak certain things without a complete revamp of character skins. They may implement player made visual adaptations (see transmogrification) but they have stated in previous posts that this would be a toggle'able feature. While there are many people in the camp of "just keep it turned on" if this system is implemented, there are valid arguements to having a toggle. Even if new technology is released i don't think you will see a complete revamp of character models.
Dynamic zone restructuring should be embraced from the start. With current technologies there is no reason for them not to restructure zones as needed or when certain dynamic events create change. That being said, the zone should feel familiar when you return to the zone years later. The EQ1 Freeport revamp disaster was just that...... a disaster. There is no resemblance of the original zone left. This is the kind of revamp that leaves a bad taste is people's mouths. EC/WC turned into Commonlands was done in the proper way, it retained similarities to the original zones.
I think VR is well on thier way to creating the dynamic world we are hoping for. Different monsters spawning at night, or in the rain, or when x amount of creatures die. At least i feel that is the plan from what i keep hearing.
kreed99 said:Dynamic zone restructuring should be embraced from the start. With current technologies there is no reason for them not to restructure zones as needed or when certain dynamic events create change. That being said, the zone should feel familiar when you return to the zone years later. The EQ1 Freeport revamp disaster was just that...... a disaster. There is no resemblance of the original zone left. This is the kind of revamp that leaves a bad taste is people's mouths.
That is why I would support additions to, not complete replacements of, zones.
I believe that dynamic zone content/remodeling will be a thing. Here is why they say that.
In multiple streams, VR has talked about an "event system" that will be able to handle various zone "events". They have not, however, gone into great detail on what that means. Does it mean just weather and such? Does it mean like the Ring War in Velious, which had no discernable effect on the world? Does it mean zone changing events? Beats me. It does, however, seem silly to specifically call out such a system if it doesn't have an actual impact on the world, in my opinion.
I could see great things happening with such a system if it has "world impact". For instance, a "Ring War" with the dwarves that chases them out of the area and a new set of mobs take over. Or an event that destroys BRK and requires "time" for it to be rebuilt, so now, while that is happening, it's a ruin inhabited by undead rather than the humans that are there right now.
Guess we will see when either more info is released or the game goes live what their "event system" is.
I agree I hated the freeport revamp.
I also agree with others that continually growing outward is a negative.
I don’t think I would have had nearly the nostalgia pings for older zones in EQ that were revamped (Cazic Thule) and hatred of that revamp if it was more standard and not seemingly completely out of the blue.
I’d actually like to see developers monitor zone usage per expansion and expand upon/revamp useless wasted space instead of continually expanding outwards.
And, like Vandraad said, I’d like developers to have a vision of a zone in mind for 4-5 expansions. Locked doors with no key in original zone, that in Expansion 1 leads to a basement zone, which in expansion 2 leads to underground tunnels etc. I always imagined this with the locked doors at Estate of Unrest - Where players at least would still see each other, even if it was buffing in passing versus being spread over multiple outward expansions. And, I’d imagine groups would meet in the original zone allowing for even more interaction with the newbies/lowbies.
Just thought this was relevant to the topic.
Back in October of 2017: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/7215/how-much/view/post_id/134456
Aradune said:
The Pantheon opportunity is arguably a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. And I can speak for myself certainly, and also confidently for the majority of the team, if not all of them: we are in this for the long haul. This is *not* fire and forget. So many ideas and dreams we have can't even start without a solid launch and enough players from all different walks of life having a great time and supporting this company with monthly subs. The launch of an MMO is like a baby being born -- beautiful, exciting, engrossing... but still a foundation upon which to then build SO much more. For a variety of reasons not right to go into details right now, none of us have been able to stay on an MMO from inception, through development, then launch, and then for years of expansions, DLCs, revamping, retooling, keeping fresh. Even a game I am *so* proud of and always will be, that is still around, that has remained commercially successful for almost 19 years now -- even that game was not built by a team that stuck together -- while it launched with a solid vision and that vision remained consistent for a couple of expansions, eventually everyone was replaced. And those that replaced did not come on board thinking 'hey, let's hold together that original Vision, see it through, build upon it.' More accurately it was looked at as an opportunity to come in and replace the original Vision with however they saw what the game should have been, and where it should have gone forward. And this didn't happen just once, but several times -- teams replaced and therefore visions replaced. I cast no blame here, nor disrespect, and simply speak the truth with no other motive than that people have an accurate understanding of history and of the impact, significant impact, that such changes can and do have real and long-term ramifications.
The opportunity we have here with Pantheon, having both Vision and Grand Vision, the long-term commitments being made as we slowly but surely teambuild, are arguably unique in the history of not only MMOs but in computer/video gaming as a whole. This is something we take very seriously and even the idea, random thought, or brain fart of squandering such an opportunity absolutely unthinkable.
And if that post didn't scare you sufficiently, just stay tuned, LoL :) I really do love you guys, the fantastic community we have, combined with having the time to do it right, reach the goals and dreams we outlined months ago, and the *freedom* we have to try to really move this genre forward even if that truly involves thinking outside of the box and trying out some really wild and crazy stuff. Start-ups are hard, indies are faced with truly unique challenges, but I’ll take it all any day vs how it used to be!
There's a discussion here about the game world post launch and updates.
My chief concern is that you can visually notice old/new content (say in EQ). I just like the idea of everything being a uniform look. If you update the wolf model, update it everywhere, not just the new zones.
Iksar said:I don't think VR should be afraid of doing zone revamps and remakes at all. Way too many games suffer from too much expansion outward instead of making changes to what is already there. Even by Kunark, classic EQ could have had an entire expansions worth of content by just revamping/reimagining a fair number of old world zones that were mostly ghost towns.
Well that's because MMO designers build the new zones to be more enticing than the existing content so you buy the expansions. They intentionally want to separate gamers and move them away from old content. It's one of the few things I care a lot about in these games. Expansions get deigned to the amenities of home are available elsewhere, so why return home?
There is some discussion about that here
bigdogchris said:There's a discussion here about the game world post launch and updates.
My chief concern is that you can visually notice old/new content (say in EQ). I just like the idea of everything being a uniform look. If you update the wolf model, update it everywhere, not just the new zones.
Iksar said:I don't think VR should be afraid of doing zone revamps and remakes at all. Way too many games suffer from too much expansion outward instead of making changes to what is already there. Even by Kunark, classic EQ could have had an entire expansions worth of content by just revamping/reimagining a fair number of old world zones that were mostly ghost towns.
Well that's because MMO designers build the new zones to be more enticing than the existing content so you buy the expansions. They intentionally want to separate gamers and move them away from old content. It's one of the few things I care a lot about in these games. Expansions get deigned to the amenities of home are available elsewhere, so why return home?
There is some discussion about that here
Somthing to keep in mind is that VR has said on multiple streams that they want to create a living, breating, vibrant world. What this means, in their mind, we do not know, but we can guess. Especially when paired with statements like "PvE really does mean 'player vs environment' in some cases".
So yes the Freeport revamp was a disaster, it went way to far way to fast and for me is now "Freeport" in name only.
But this talk of Cazic Thule and it's revamp, and expanding the talk of expanding within instead of outward.
So are people suggesting as an expansion for example the newb zones like Crushbone or Befallen be promoted to raid zones and new zones added for the newbz.
This could definitely work in hand with Progeny. I have heard a lot of people complain they don't want to Progeny and replay old zones.
I couldn't stand the new EQ characters back when they changed them and I still hate them today. They had zero personality. As for zone changes or revamps I'm totally against it. I can't think of a single MMO where zones were changed for the games sake or otherwise that I thought to myself thinking..."Hey its actually better now!". Can you?
I'm fine with adding zones, but leave my old favs alone. All you're doing is tearing down my childhood home to build apartments at that point. Zone gentrification doesn't work. :D
I would like to see zone revamping in moderation. Their is no reason to keep vast low level areas as the player base matures. On the outskirts of these zones would be nice to add new higher level content. I am not looking for a theme park mmo where level up go to next zone never return to old zone. I would like to see areas which were once deemed relatively safe becoming dangerous. Be nice to continue to use existing zones by adding more content to them.
I would like to see existing dungeons change over time as well. ie by expanding them.
Zorkon said:So yes the Freeport revamp was a disaster, it went way to far way to fast and for me is now "Freeport" in name only.
But this talk of Cazic Thule and it's revamp, and expanding the talk of expanding within instead of outward.
So are people suggesting as an expansion for example the newb zones like Crushbone or Befallen be promoted to raid zones and new zones added for the newbz.
This could definitely work in hand with Progeny. I have heard a lot of people complain they don't want to Progeny and replay old zones.
The Freeport revamp hurt in many ways.
I wasa Paladin, and logged out apparently in West Free Port (I was KOS), I logged out in a safe area (I would kill guards for fun), and then played alts for while before I quit.
WHen I returned and logged in my paladin some months later only to find myself in a NEW Freeport and I couldn't find my way out. But I did create one helluva train. :)
I am all for revamping old/dead zones and creating a new reason to go there. However I am not a fan of, and I think many people would agree and that is the point of this post, completely changing it to something I don't even recognize like Blizzard did with Cataclysm. A good example of blizzard doing this in cataclysm would be Westfall. It still looked like Westfall you had recognizeable landmarks but at the same time it did have a new feel to it. New quest lines to go with the new theme but still keeping the same overall look. A bad example would be something like 1k needles which is now completely underwater. Why? I don't know.
I personally really like the idea of reusing or revisiting older zones for new encounters. It gives the world a more lively and active feeling.
Zorkon said:So are people suggesting as an expansion for example the newb zones like Crushbone or Befallen be promoted to raid zones and new zones added for the newbz.
Not exactly, at least not Crushbone as that zone was almost always a higher traffic zone. What I am suggesting is that they could have an entire expansion that is just revamp/reimagining of existing zones that are under-used or complete ghost towns.
Looking at EQ, even by Kunark they could have revamped/reimagined almost all of Western Antonica and Odus save maybe the immediate area around Qeynos. The Karanas, Splitpaw, Erud's Crossing, Runnyeye, Rathe Mountains, Lake Rathe, and everything attached to Odus could all have used full facelifts/reworks. Then you have places like Najena, Steamfont Mountains, Befallen, Kithicor, and South Ro which were very under utilized or otherwise just zones traveled through to get elsewhere. Basically a full expansion of content or more that would have gone far to keep players from spreading too thin by expanding outward.
Iksar said:Zorkon said:So are people suggesting as an expansion for example the newb zones like Crushbone or Befallen be promoted to raid zones and new zones added for the newbz.
Not exactly, at least not Crushbone as that zone was almost always a higher traffic zone. What I am suggesting is that they could have an entire expansion that is just revamp/reimagining of existing zones that are under-used or complete ghost towns.
Looking at EQ, even by Kunark they could have revamped/reimagined almost all of Western Antonica and Odus save maybe the immediate area around Qeynos. The Karanas, Splitpaw, Erud's Crossing, Runnyeye, Rathe Mountains, Lake Rathe, and everything attached to Odus could all have used full facelifts/reworks. Then you have places like Najena, Steamfont Mountains, Befallen, Kithicor, and South Ro which were very under utilized or otherwise just zones traveled through to get elsewhere. Basically a full expansion of content or more that would have gone far to keep players from spreading too thin by expanding outward.
Just so that we're all on the same page here.
They have already stated in multiple streams that "newbie zones" aren't really going to be newbie zones. Those zones ae going to have mixed levels of content. This means that you will have a reason, for example, to go back to AVP for mob battles. They want the "intermingling" of players of all levels in the "newbie" zones.
Yeah, I think what we are talking about is that rather than create a whole new continent, find a way to add to existing zones.
For instance, in lavastorm, they could easily just have added another "lava tube" that was a whole new dungeon. There were alot of zones in EQ1, and Classic WoW that had many places that entrances to new zones could have been logically placed. Although even in classic WoW IIRC, most regions were for a particular level rnge, and once you outleveled it, you had little reason to return, other than passing through on your way to a vendor or town.
I think MMORPGS have a tendenacy of killing themselves over the years by an ever expanding world. Your population growth doesn't really get bigger every expansion after a few expansions are out. It usually stays stagnant or decreases due to the top people changing the game and betraying their core fan base.
When that starts to happen then the game starts killing a lot of their zones. Look at WoW. They actually patch and take out a lot of the fun stuff in older expansions soo that you don't go back to that content. They want you at the newer content more or less.
Same thing with EQ. The game got soo big that they introduced the Planes of Knowledge (POK) and killed off a ton of zones.
I think it would be fun to have an ever changing world though. Would make progression servers actually a lot more fun.
EX: Maybe some meteor hit a certain zone and revealed an under ground cave where a bunch of tough mobs awoke from their slumber and decided to come out and wreck havoc and it's an event that determines the alteration of that zone. This could make servers different from one another depending on how the server population handles the situation and whether they succeed or fail at it.
Anyways, I do think a flaw in MMO's is that the developers always have the mentality of an ever expanding world, which ultimately will kill their MMO. Has happened in every MMO so far. They can never retain their populations do to this and people get disenchanted by the game and leave.
malidy said:I think it was when Luclin came out that they completely remade all of the character models, except they still left the old ones behind, and players could choose which they wanted enabled per race/gender. This was so awkward... I knew what my character looked like in the model I was using but didn't know what I looked like for people using the alternate model. I recently watched an EQ video and saw that Kobolds and Frogloks were all changed..
Talking purely about character models. I sympathise with Malidy. If you tell players, this is how your toon will look like in game. DO NOT change that appearance at any point in time. I experienced it in eq2 and I hated it, I actually disliked it so much I deleted toons and stepped away from entire races.
Concerning established areas... you can add to them, ok. Fine with me. But do not drastically alter the experience players have of an already excisting area/zone. Again, I experienced it in eq2 where they revamped Freeport and Qeynos, and I didn't like it one bit. Everything about it felt off, eventhough they had woven massive lore around the change. It just didn't feel like home to me. A side effect was that many of my characters lost their homes and personal history/player written storylines. So overall it just felt off.
Again you can add extra doors, tunnels, zones. But keep the old zones's appereance/feel the same. It could be just another way of losing touch with the game, if areas that players grew familiar with change too drastically.
Sidenote: I was a very big fan of EQnext method of shifting worlds. But this is not what Pantheon is aiming for. (I think)
Kalok said:I believe that dynamic zone content/remodeling will be a thing. Here is why they say that.
In multiple streams, VR has talked about an "event system" that will be able to handle various zone "events". They have not, however, gone into great detail on what that means. Does it mean just weather and such? Does it mean like the Ring War in Velious, which had no discernable effect on the world? Does it mean zone changing events? Beats me. It does, however, seem silly to specifically call out such a system if it doesn't have an actual impact on the world, in my opinion.
I could see great things happening with such a system if it has "world impact". For instance, a "Ring War" with the dwarves that chases them out of the area and a new set of mobs take over. Or an event that destroys BRK and requires "time" for it to be rebuilt, so now, while that is happening, it's a ruin inhabited by undead rather than the humans that are there right now.
I like this much better simply because it keeps zones fresh without altering the terrain. This system also has the potential to continously bring players back into older zones keeping them valuable. Adding things like events to a zone is better that completely changing them. I'm glad they are movng in this direction. The future of changing entire zones is years into the future and noone here can say for certain how they'll feel about this, once they have been in the game for that length of time.