I am not in the Pre-Alpha. I have been following Pantheon through the Twitch Streamer, CohhCarnage. I am a Watcher Pledgee and I am looking forward to this game!
I do have a few questions.
1. Since this game has been compared to the old school EverQuest, I am wanting to know if there will be similar dynamic loot tables that were in EQ? I will use the Assassin Supplier Room in Lower Guk as an example. Three mobs in the room, two are place holders for "named" mobs. When those mobs spawn they only have a 10% chance to drop the rarest loot on their table, 25% cahnce to drop semi rare, and 65% chance to drop their common loot. Will this be similar in Pantheon?
2. I have seen the dedicated classes featured on the streams and I love teh idea that only a Cleric can heal. My question is will there be a dedicated transport class like the Druid and Wizard in EQ?
3. I have one sugestion for the game. Each game I have played, and I have played many, had the cleric have undead damage spells but never a damage shield against undead. I mean they are considered holy so doesnt it make sense that when a cleric gets hit by an undead that some damage be applied?
Anyway, I am looking forward to this game and cannot wait for full realization of what has been so far a great game to witness in development!
Thanks.
Lue.
Hi there,
1. I am not aware of any information regarding loot table.
2. To me it sounds like wizards and druids will be able to port.
Wizards:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/classes/wizard/
Epic Skill. Wizards have the opportunity to prove themselves worthy of joining the Order of the Gatewalkers, consisting of Wizards who have mastered the power to travel through the Gateways that exist on Terminus. This prestigious order of Wizards has maintained a steady watch over these Gateways for ages, guarding their secrets and protecting them from destruction. The worthy Wizards who join this Order are expected to do the same.
Druids:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/classes/druid/
Explorers have noted the presence of ancient, iridescent stones that stand within shrines hidden amid the groves and wilds of Terminus. These stones have come to be known as “Wandering Stones” and are seething with Druidic magic. Because of this, it is rumored that Druids are somehow able to attune to these Wandering Stones and travel between them. And perhaps there is even more to these stones than most realize...
3. I really like that idea!
I hope I could help at least a little bit ;)
Luethar, If cleric is the only healer class that can heal effectively than pantheon has officially failed in my eyes so idk where you got that from. I would like it if their loot system was similar to everquest. It amazed me that many of the items available in everquest were never even discovered. Pretty awesome stuff!
Druid is a healer class with the ability to solo heal a group, do some dps, and port, that's the way it is intended and that's the way it should be.
Clearly there will be multiple healer classes. They will. perhaps, be aimed at different primary functions.
It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if the druid could solo more effectively than the cleric and have a very important non-combat travel skill. As a trade-off perhaps the cleric will be somewhat better at actually healing although it would be inconceivable to me if a druid couldn't effectively heal a group. Perhaps the cleric will be better at the main healer role for a raid.
Pure speculation based on how MMO class design usually works. Trade-offs are key so that every healer class should be better at some things than the others and worse at others. I have not even looked at any of the class discussions - I am content to wait until alpha is announced and I then will study the classes in great detail. They may be a bit different by then and certainly more fleshed out.
I feel like there already was a trade off in everquest and that was clerics had that hp/ac buff that almost nobody went without, and a better % exp recover revive. Neither healer should be able to heal better that simply shouldn't be a trade off, the others that already existed in everquest were plenty, but they failed in making druids less able to keep a group alive, they could yes but it wasn't easy and required much more work / perfect pulls etc... In pantheon all healers should be able to keep a group up equally, but different approaches in doing so... Example druids regenerating damage shields (thorns) + heals, clerics wards + heals, shaman serious melee / spell debuffs (slows) and heals.
If people play cleric because they're the best healer, fighter because they're the best tank, and wizard because they're the best dps, why do we have these other classes, might as well just roll with the 3 otherwise you'll have people like me on a druid having to wait when posting in lfg because a group would rather fill the last spot with a real healer.
TLogan said: I feel like there already was a trade off in everquest and that was clerics had that hp/ac buff that almost nobody went without, and a better % exp recover revive. Neither healer should be able to heal better that simply shouldn't be a trade off, the others that already existed in everquest were plenty, but they failed in making druids less able to keep a group alive, they could yes but it wasn't easy and required much more work / perfect pulls etc... In pantheon all healers should be able to keep a group up equally, but different approaches in doing so... Example druids regenerating damage shields (thorns) + heals, clerics wards + heals, shaman serious melee / spell debuffs (slows) and heals.
It is impossible to design 3 different healing classes that all function equivalently but with different styles.
You will always end up with a situation where class a is better than class b due to how it's designed.
As a holy pally during tbc I was terrible at aoe healing. And many of the harder heroic dungeons involved aoe healing. It was a struggle. But there was no one better at raid healing than i.
Thanks for all the info. I keep hearing the comparison to EQ so I assumed it would be similar with the dedicated healing classes. In EQ clerics were the only healers with complete heals and experience rezzes. When EQ first started out, druids and shaman could NOT keep up with cleric healing. Eventually expansions blurred the lines between classes and other healing classes could keep a group up.
Thank you for the info. I appreciate it.
Lue.
dorotea said:Clearly there will be multiple healer classes. They will. perhaps, be aimed at different primary functions.
It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if the druid could solo more effectively than the cleric and have a very important non-combat travel skill. As a trade-off perhaps the cleric will be somewhat better at actually healing although it would be inconceivable to me if a druid couldn't effectively heal a group. Perhaps the cleric will be better at the main healer role for a raid.
Pure speculation based on how MMO class design usually works. Trade-offs are key so that every healer class should be better at some things than the others and worse at others. I have not even looked at any of the class discussions - I am content to wait until alpha is announced and I then will study the classes in great detail. They may be a bit different by then and certainly more fleshed out.
My assumption is that all 3 will be adequate main healers in group overland content.
In raid settings, clerics will be healing main tanks, while druid and shaman will be focused on the rest of the raid with heal over time and group heals. Pally's will be throwing out little popcorn heals here and there. This is just based on what we know so far. Obviously there could be more to it than that, but for pure single target heal throughput, Cleric will shine. This is all discussed in that class Q&A.
In response to your questions...
1) Loot has not been talked about, but they have talked a little bit about how named mobs will be different than in EQ1. They have talked about the idea that named mobs will not always spawn in exactly the same spots, and they may also be mobile and move around the zone they spawn in. This will mean camping a named mob may be slightly different, since you can't guarentee that the named mob will spawn where you are camping him/her. This also means that several different groups may be able to camp for the same named just in different parts of the zone, each with an equal chance of being the first to get the named to spawn for them.
2) Clerics are NOT the only pure healer in Pantheon. In EQ1 druids and shamans were considered support classes and thus their healing kit was not designed to be for pure main healing in a group or raid. In Pantheon this is not the case and druids and shamans are also going to be balanced as pure healers and will be able to fill the role as the main healer in a group or raid. See this video for Chris "Joppa" Perkins explaination: https://youtu.be/4vebn1AN6KY?t=671
As for Teleports, we don't know the specifics of how this will work but we do have some info...
Matrulak already posted this in his response but I will mention it again here and comment.
In the Druid class reveal: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/classes/druid/
Wandering Stones
Explorers have noted the presence of ancient, iridescent stones that stand within shrines hidden amid the groves and wilds of Terminus. These stones have come to be known as “Wandering Stones” and are seething with Druidic magic. Because of this, it is rumored that Druids are somehow able to attune to these Wandering Stones and travel between them. And perhaps there is even more to these stones than most realize...
We don't know exactly how this will work. It may be that druids once attuned will be able to teleport their group from anywhere to one of these stones. Or perhaps it will require the group to be at 1 stone first and the druid can use it to port the group to another stone. It's possible that a druid can always port the group to one of the stones, and then from there anyone can use the stones individually to travel to a different stone.
As for Wizards... In their class reveal: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/classes/wizard/
Order of the Gatewalkers
Epic Skill. Wizards have the opportunity to prove themselves worthy of joining the Order of the Gatewalkers, consisting of Wizards who have mastered the power to travel through the Gateways that exist on Terminus. This prestigious order of Wizards has maintained a steady watch over these Gateways for ages, guarding their secrets and protecting them from destruction. The worthy Wizards who join this Order are expected to do the same.
Since this mentions Gateways rather than Stones, it is clear that these will be different and likely in different locations. So you might need to locate the right class to go to the right places as it's not clear if there will be stones and gates in the same locals. We also are not clear if this description allows for these gateways to be used by any person without a wizard, or if you must have a wizard to travel the gateways. It's possible that wizards will have the ability to bring their group from anywhere to a gateway, just like the druids with the stones.
3) In regards to an undead damage shield... this is actually part of the Paladin kit and not the Cleric kit.
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/classes/paladin/
Lightful Avenger:
Passive Ability. In combat against an Undead enemy, your attacks will do additional Divine damage and have a higher chance to critically hit, your Wrath gains from abilities will be increased by X%, your Wrath gains from damage inflicted by Undead will be increased by X%, Undead who strike you in combat will take Divine damage and your critical melee strikes will generate Reckoning Points.
In addition, while in the Lightful Avenger state, all damage you receive from Undead enemies will be reduced by X% before your normal mitigation is counted. The amount of damage reduced by Lightful Avenger will be converted to health and spread evenly through the group as healing. This effect cannot occur more than once per second.
Hope this fully answered your questions and your suggestion... I recommend going through the class Reveals even though some of that information is in flux and things have changed slightly. The various streams that we have had give us a little more insight as the in game tooltips for the spells have been shown with spell costs and more up to date descriptions of what the spells do.
Parascol said:Look for the Pax East Q&A video of Bazgrim and Chris Perkins discussing classes. It's a little bit outdated, but has a lot of info on healers, as well as the other classes. It's worth a watch.
Here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vebn1AN6KY
This was done before the summer class reveals, but everything he said is still accurate. It's not as detailed, but still gives a good explanation of the overall role of the classes.
It is not correct to say that only a Cleric can heal. Clerics aren't necessarily the best in all situations and they aren't even the only class that can rez. Clerics, Shamans, and Druids can all heal a group effectively and are all slated to have some form of Resurrect ability. It's not hard to look at the class reveals and decipher that each one of those classes has a unique style. The distinction for the Cleric is that they have the highest direct healing throughput of any of the healer classes. Meanwhile, the Shaman focuses on HoT (healing over time) and the Druid focuses on AoE/reactive/indirect heals. Through continued balancing, the goal is for each of these classes to be able to support a group on their own as the sole healer. Each brings varying types of utility and flavor, and there may be some situations where, for example, a Cleric is preferred because the fight calls for high direct healing. However, the key distinction is that there will in theory be just as many situations where a Druid is preferred... and same for a Shaman.
This philosophy, by the way, is the same for all archetypes, such as the tanks. Warrior, Paladin, and Dire Lord can all tank effectively on their own, but in different styles. A Paladin may be preferred in fights against undead while a Dire Lord is preferred in fights against caster mobs. That's how each class maintains a distinct identity while also staying relevant.
TLogan said: As I said and I speak for all druids / shamans here... If a cleric is simply a better healer, than pantheon has failed us.
why don't you wait and see how to game turns out before you doom it to failure.
if this game is Eq like. Cleric, druid and shaman will be able to heal groups.
Each class has pros and cons. Clerics were better healers, but couldn't Evac or slow. etc. it all balances out in the end. it's really not that hard to understand.
Flapp said:TLogan said: As I said and I speak for all druids / shamans here... If a cleric is simply a better healer, than pantheon has failed us.why don't you wait and see how to game turns out before you doom it to failure.
if this game is Eq like. Cleric, druid and shaman will be able to heal groups.
Each class has pros and cons. Clerics were better healers, but couldn't Evac or slow. etc. it all balances out in the end. it's really not that hard to understand.
Not really. Anyone who played EQ in classic will tell you Clerics were way more desired for rez alone. Later into the harder content, more so in velious and luclin, you needed a Cleric. A druid couldn't keep up with the healing even with an enchanter. Shamans maybe depending on the group, but if you have an enchanter with slow then having a shaman was pretty useless, since enchanters were a must.
Also, this has been said many times, but if you make one healer better than the others, then like EQ, you will have 2 - 4 druids, 2 - 4 shamans, and like 12 clerics. I know raiding will be different than EQ, which is a good thing, but if the class distribution is something like that then Pantheon did a bad job balancing. 12 druids should be as effective as 12 clerics, same with shamans. But just because output of healing maybe relatively the same, that doesn't mean they have to do it the same way. Hell you can even make certain encounters better for certain heal classes, but in general they should be able to do all the group content as effective as their counterparts.
Watemper said:Flapp said:TLogan said: As I said and I speak for all druids / shamans here... If a cleric is simply a better healer, than pantheon has failed us.why don't you wait and see how to game turns out before you doom it to failure.
if this game is Eq like. Cleric, druid and shaman will be able to heal groups.
Each class has pros and cons. Clerics were better healers, but couldn't Evac or slow. etc. it all balances out in the end. it's really not that hard to understand.
Not really. Anyone who played EQ in classic will tell you Clerics were way more desired for rez alone. Later into the harder content, more so in velious and luclin, you needed a Cleric. A druid couldn't keep up with the healing even with an enchanter. Shamans maybe depending on the group, but if you have an enchanter with slow then having a shaman was pretty useless, since enchanters were a must.
Also, this has been said many times, but if you make one healer better than the others, then like EQ, you will have 2 - 4 druids, 2 - 4 shamans, and like 12 clerics. I know raiding will be different than EQ, which is a good thing, but if the class distribution is something like that then Pantheon did a bad job balancing. 12 druids should be as effective as 12 clerics, same with shamans. But just because output of healing maybe relatively the same, that doesn't mean they have to do it the same way. Hell you can even make certain encounters better for certain heal classes, but in general they should be able to do all the group content as effective as their counterparts.
might wanna watch and listen to devs in streams. they already have a plan. There is no way they can make all 3 healers exactly equal. It will be sorta like EQ but, with the moden spin being that sometimes you will actually desire a HoT healer vs a direct healer or a damage mitigation healer.
What would be the point of being a cleric if my only arsenal is I can spank 1 mob type, undead, and heal; vs Druid: Evac, Ports, HoTs, Buffs, SoW, and lots of Damage spells. or shaman: buffs, slows, pets, etc etc. Cleric HAS to be either a better healer or have a better ress, otherwise, why in the heck would any group pick cleric vs others that heal as good but have a WAY better arsenal of spells for the group.
TLogan said: Yes we can buff some and port... Yes we should still be able to heal equally well.
That's a very simplistic point-of-view, IMHO. Ultimately, what matters is how good you are at keeping the group alive, and healing is just one way of achieving that. If your buffs mean less healing is required balance is broken if your healing output equals that of a Cleric 100%.
It's much easier to see the effects of powerful healing spells than it is to understand the effects of buffs and HoT. That's why specialists are sometimes preferred over the more versatile classes.
TLogan said: It can't be that hard to make it so that a cleric is equally capable of healing an entire group just as fast as a druid (the aoe heal expert if that's the path the choose) by just making the clerics single target heals faster cast so they'll have to switch targets but still can get everyone in a short amount of time. Just as a druid should be able to heal a single target just as well albeit maybe slightly less efficiently as they'll have to stack hots and single target heals on the tank. Idk why the concept is so difficult to understand here, idk why those playing clerics think they should hands down be the best healers, sorry that's not the way it should be. We should all be equally desired for group content if you're making a game designed 90% group content. If a cleric can solo heal an equally skilled druid or shaman should be able to solo heal the same group.
I'm not advocating for the cleric, and I agree 100% with your last two sentences. I just don't buy that raw healing outputs is the only parameter to consider. As I said, if less damage is done to your group in general and the tank in particular because of a druid's buffs she can be just as desirable as a cleric focusing more on the healing aspect. You could say that it's not about being equally good healers, it's about being equally good protectors, in general.
In common group settings expect the healers to be fairly interchangeable. You will likely only need 80% of the worst healers maximum efficiency to succeed in single group content. Each healers method of keeping the group alive will be different and which of the tanking classes that they pair best with will also be different. In raids each healer will have their own strengths that lend themselves to a raid job.
From what I can tell so far.
Clerics will be reactive healers that heal damage after it has been dealt. Their primary raid job will be tank healing. Clerics buff AC HP. Works best with High HP tanks
Druids are ablative healers who predict which targets will take damage and prevent a chunk of it while also providing area group heals. In raids druids will serve as dps healers and spike damage counters. Works best with High Avoidance Tanks
Shamans are preemptive ultra high efficiency healers with low snap healing. Shamans also bring debuffs to lower the spike damage which offsets less snap healing power. Shamans will work best with high mitigation tanks with predictable healing needs.
These are just my assessments based on the reveals and the streams.
If they make the healing potential more or less equivalent (as TLogan wants) then they also need to make the non-healing kits more or less equivalent so are you prepared to give up your shiny extras like ports to be an equivalent healer? After all, why take a cleric if a druid heals just as well, does a little DPS and can port you all over? It works both ways...
Zyellinia said:If they make the healing potential more or less equivalent (as TLogan wants) then they also need to make the non-healing kits more or less equivalent so are you prepared to give up your shiny extras like ports to be an equivalent healer? After all, why take a cleric if a druid heals just as well, does a little DPS and can port you all over? It works both ways...
Exactly! If Clerics are just going to be a wash with healing, I would hope that they would bring something to the group as tantalizing as teleports to gather all the party members quickly. I would like to see something in regard to making corpse runs and rezzes easier with a Cleric. That to me would be equivalent to offering teleports.
Of course, this is all just speculation from not even playing the game and assumptions on how the game will work.
Lol you guys are making the other cleric stuff seem pointless... You're truly making it sound like they have zero utility, zero buffs that legitimately add to the strength of the party. I'm not wanting a superclass just as I would be super upset if one tank class was designed to be simply better than another tank class... That's just silly. Different approaches sure... But equally skilled players of each tank type with equal gear / progression should be able to handle content equally well...
No one would roll a wizard if they knew that groups are always going to choose other dps over them because theirs suffer as they have ports so they're automatically the worst dps because that's omg such a big deal.
Clerics have always been sought after for revives and buffs just as much if not more than a druid us for ports... Quit making it sound more powerful than it is when it sounds like basic teleport to at least a few places will already exist.
The purpose of this post was to find out a little more information than what I had seen. You have all answered the question to the fullest possible and I thank you.
Lue.
