Community feeback should be used sparingly during the initial heavy development phase like Pantheon is in right now. The issue with placing too much emphasis on community opinion is is that people tend not to agree with each other and people have different motivations. The worst thing you can do is water down your product to try and please everybody and end up pleasing nobody.
As a company VR has a vision based on (hopefully) measurable data as to what the market has, what it might want, where the niches are, what you want this game to be and what you can realistically deliver. Stick to this vision and make it the best manifestation of that vision it can be. Once the game is out you can be proud of the game you created and make the tweaks later on, expansions are great for this.
Kilsin said:Community Debate - How much influence should a community have over the game's development? When so many people have differing opinions on any given topic, how do you think the opinions should be handled? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters
We're here to give feedback..an opinion here or there...but it IS up to the Devs to sort the wheat from the chaff, with whatever fits with the overall Vision of the game into the future. :) I don't really expect anything I say to have much influence..other than perhaps things experienced in gameplay, that perhaps I will have reported as bugged or not working.
Other than that ..my ego is hiding in a closet :D hehehe
Cana
Pilch said:Because so many people have different ideals for what a game should be it can be a mistake to put too much emphasis in what the vocal community wants. The developer should always stick with the core design they set out with, afterall, that is what orginally brought us here in the first place. During the development process the community should, respectfully, voice their opinions on what is a good/bad feature with a reason on how it can positively/negatively impact the game. The dev team can then evaluate those suggestions to determine if it fits into their game.
It is difficult to assess what the community wants as a whole because I believe the majority are not commenting on the forums. In Pantheon's case, many supporters pledged based on the core tenets proposed by VR. Therefore, VR should look to the vocal community for suggestions to improve their tenets, but not diverge from them.
There's an old saying: "Too many chefs spoil the broth" The Devs have the experience, and we have opinions..(rightfully or wrong lol) Allow the Devs to make the game they have been wanting to make...how rare is that? They don't have Sony or Activision or EA shareholders..to deal with. The Devs are gamers just like us ONLY with LOTS of experience creating games over the years. :)
Kilsin said:Community Debate - How much influence should a community have over the game's development? When so many people have differing opinions on any given topic, how do you think the opinions should be handled? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters
In the real world, there are things we can't change and can't avoid: gravity, death, the basic laws of physics, etc. We can appeal to the Creator and, sometimes, see a miracle but the world is resolute and unchagning, even if unfair regardless if we like it or not.
In a virtual world, it should be much the same.
A mistake made in the later days of EQ was to cater things to the community (usually the vocal minority, anyway). So any inequities or unfairness were quickly addressed (in the guise of retaining the paying customer base).
I believe this had the unintended consequence of eroding the "permanence" of the virtual world and the steadfast (sometimes unfair) laws of the universe started chaning with whiplash speed. It ruined much of the game being a World.
So, keep that in mind: you are the creators. The magic happens when we live in the world *YOU* create, not when we live in the world *WE* affected.
It needs to be resolute, even if unpopular.
The reality of the business model and success of Fortnight.
The reality of Real political influence with money. There are many MMO players that made alot of money in RMT, so much that they can be higher than the largest pledge, or be multiple unidentifieable pledges with a voice- if they wanted to be.
Like Mobius said, the development team should make motions to listening to the community, but the begining vision and decision is the development teams and the development teams, alone. There will always be monday quarterbacks that will say how things should have been done, but that is all after the fact and has no impact.
Just look at the incipid vitriol that seeps in evberywhere, jabs just before interviews to get a rise just because someone has a you-tube channel? alot of Gaslighting.
Feyshtey said:As someone whose job is to build server infrastructure for enterprise environments I think its critial the developers absolutely must have a clear design with well documented requirements, and build to that design. If you're building on the fly you've already lost. The outcome will be a confusing and inconsistent experience that noone really finds they are satisfied with. Stay true to your vision until its proved that something just isn't working, and then perhaps take great care to go thru copious amounts of tester/player feedback to start designing a solution.
Feedback based entirely on people who've never actually touched your product isnt really all that valuable IMO. The theory crafting we engage in here is all tainted by past experiences in specific games, and if you (VR as a whole) havent had all the same conversations a million times already then frankly you arent qualified to be a game developer.
It's easy for all of us potential players to argue a single mechanic to death. But without being able to see the interdependency between all mechanics in a single game, our input is nothing more than speculation at best, or outright hyperbole at worst.
And last, how many players actually know what's good for them?
Make a solid game. Drive to the design goals you've already published. Address bugs that players bring to you in a timely manner, and make this thing run as smooth as poop thru a goose and I'll be a loyal customer. Start putting in all kinds of gimmicky candy for the squeeky wheels in the community and I'll likely not be around all that long, and I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels this way.
I agree with the above. Stick to the vision and have it played. After that, perhaps have a little flexibility but not in your core mechanics or heart of the game. Small changes to things can come in DLCs, lore, or player quests. Etc. I also think that if the majority of your player base is really upset or disappointed in a change or new feature, you may need to rethink that idea. I'm talking radical changes... But I think those types of changes aren't from the devs, but are from the investors. Like what we see with EA. Or what happened to Star Wars Galaxies with NGE.
Kastor said:Feyshtey said:As someone whose job is to build server infrastructure for enterprise environments I think its critial the developers absolutely must have a clear design with well documented requirements, and build to that design. If you're building on the fly you've already lost. The outcome will be a confusing and inconsistent experience that noone really finds they are satisfied with. Stay true to your vision until its proved that something just isn't working, and then perhaps take great care to go thru copious amounts of tester/player feedback to start designing a solution.
Feedback based entirely on people who've never actually touched your product isnt really all that valuable IMO. The theory crafting we engage in here is all tainted by past experiences in specific games, and if you (VR as a whole) havent had all the same conversations a million times already then frankly you arent qualified to be a game developer.
It's easy for all of us potential players to argue a single mechanic to death. But without being able to see the interdependency between all mechanics in a single game, our input is nothing more than speculation at best, or outright hyperbole at worst.
And last, how many players actually know what's good for them?
Make a solid game. Drive to the design goals you've already published. Address bugs that players bring to you in a timely manner, and make this thing run as smooth as poop thru a goose and I'll be a loyal customer. Start putting in all kinds of gimmicky candy for the squeeky wheels in the community and I'll likely not be around all that long, and I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels this way.
I agree with the above. Stick to the vision and have it played. After that, perhaps have a little flexibility but not in your core mechanics or heart of the game. Small changes to things can come in DLCs, lore, or player quests. Etc. I also think that if the majority of your player base is really upset or disappointed in a change or new feature, you may need to rethink that idea. I'm talking radical changes... But I think those types of changes aren't from the devs, but are from the investors. Like what we see with EA. Or what happened to Star Wars Galaxies with NGE.
Absolutely Kastor...they ruined SWG for me, when they decided to go "iconic" and remove character classes like the creature handler. Those large changes done without input from those that had been playing those characters for quite awhile after launch, made a lot of people very unhappy. Pretty sure Developers know not to do that faux pas any more...and specifically the Devs we have as the VR team. :) I was an Elder Master Dancer in SWG btw.
Cana
Zorkon said:
This right here, the Tenets are what they need to stick by.
I'm glad 187 added in "If an idea or suggestion is shared that aligns with the tenets then it should be considered" THAT to me is the main purpose the community should fill, bringing new ideas the Dev's may not have thought of. As far a voting, don't give us a vote...
As I learned being a EQNext supporter, if you open up these forums to free access, and let the community decide whats best, Pantheon will be releasing as Free to Play with a cash shop full of
Yea, don't give us a vote. There are so many players who don't post on forums, some don't even visit them. The devs are making the game they want - we have the choice to be here. The Pantheon streams are looking good, looking forward to seeing more.
We all invested in Pantheon because we believe in "the vision" and the team. In terms of major game systems the community should have little influence. It's not feasible to make changes to major systems when they are woven into the games fabric.
However, the testing community should have influence when it comes to fun. Sometimes devs have great intentions and for some reason an idea is implemented in a way that is just not fun for most people. (Not talking about "old school hardcore" vs casual so keep that debate away). In these instances the devs must listen to the community and find a way to make the game fun. If the game is not fun, then whats the point?
IE: The climate system sounds awesome but maybe when its rolled out testes have feedback that elements aren't comign across the way the devs intended. Devs have to pay attention and listen to their testers to understand why. This is where community influence matters.
Kilsin said:Community Debate - How much influence should a community have over the game's development? When so many people have differing opinions on any given topic, how do you think the opinions should be handled?
me? i should have direct line to the devs, my ideas are divine! other people? scrubs- and should be ignored.
Kilsin said:Community Debate - How much influence should a community have over the game's development? When so many people have differing opinions on any given topic, how do you think the opinions should be handled? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters
Little to none.
Opinions read by the devs should be considered only if considerable, then pitched and tossed around the dev table.
Community opinions should never be used as ammo at the dev table, stuff like "well alot of people are saying ____, so we should do that".
The wise dont post as frequent as those with something to prove. Those with something to prove are always inexperienced.
There is a reason the community is here, and you devs are there.
You guys got this!
Currently Absolutely Zero.
All the fundamentals should now be locked in and frozen already and being implemented ready for Alpha testing, scope creep is the death of many a project... been there done that and so I presume has most if not all of the VR team.
IMO our input isn't really creative (outside of those who paid for it) but to test functionality, exploitability, mechanics etc. Ultimately the creative parts the fun bit... so why would they pass on the fun work :)
Players really shouldn't influence core design decisions/ philosophies. With that said, players should be able to provide feedback and that feedback should only be considered when it aligns with core tenets or design decisions, but even then the developer should have final say, because they are the only ones qualified to know if an idea truly fits in with the overall grand design. The feedback should be most important during test phases when core systems are being tweaked for balance.
Kilsin said:Community Debate - How much influence should a community have over the game's development? When so many people have differing opinions on any given topic, how do you think the opinions should be handled? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters
As often with such large questions , the right answer is "very little and very much" .
- Very little when the media is a forum . Forums are not only messy but they obey the Pareto law in that 10% of users make 90% of the posts . Letting the posters have influence even should they agree on something in a large majority would mean letting 10 % of potential players (but NOT the whole community !) to have influence over the development . This is hardly a good idea and a road to hell even for the best intentionned developpers . Forums have basically only 2 roles . One is that the company makes believe that it listens and the posters make believe that they are listened to so that everybody is kept happy . Second is that in the mass of opinions and contradictory arguments there may be a qualitatively good and/or original idea that is consistent with the development plan and has an added value yet the developpers didn't think of it . Then there is nothing wrong with including the idea in the development .
- Very much when the media is a poll . It is standard practice for all companies developping a new product to quantitatively evaluate their ideas on representative samples of actual and future customers . For example I assume this forum has several thousands registered users . And for instance polling 2000 users allows to obtain answers with a confidence level of 99% and confidence interval 3% which is valid for a population of 1 000 000 potential players what is probably more than the number of expected Pantheon players . In other words if the poll says that 80% hate a feature X then you can be 99 % sure that between 77 % and 83 % of the 1 000 000 potential future players will hate the feature X too . Of course the developpers can always decide that they will implement X anyway but it would also be a sure road to hell if they discounted the knowledge that a large majority of the future customer basis will not like it . Thus a good way to handle different opinions be it among the players or even among the developpers themselves is and has always been to do a poll and the results should certainly exert an important influence .
The game tenets are the primary reason why I pledged and as long as they are adhered to as much as possible, Pantheon should go on to be a wildly successful game.
This is precisely why it's a bad idea to give the community too much control over the game's development (name removed from the quote... I don't want to quote-shame, just using this as an example).
The game should become what the developers want it to be and operate how they see fit. If it doesn't end up being something I want to play then so be it; I'll find another game. But never allow that possibility to affect the game's outcome. If the game doesn't fit one person's idea of "the perfect game" it will fit someone else's.
Community feedback should be read and heard but always be aware that for every player who posts on the forums there are 100 more that do not. 1% is a terrible sample size for making changes to a game. It's far more important -- to the community -- that the developers be open and clear. If VR is willing to admit when something they built didn't work out and can go back to the drawing board to find a better solution they'll be light years ahead of other MMO developers.
In short, stay open and listen to your community, take the feedback under advisement but always do your own thing. Stay true to your vision even if that vision changes over time. Your players will love you for it even if the game strays from what any single player wants.
bobwinner said:The problem with community debates is that a loud minority will give their opinion, while a vast majority will remain silent.
And that makes the "community answer" actually irrevelant.
Dev's,
If you have a clear vision of the world you want to present and gameplay that is time tested, move forward with that. People ( specially gamers ) will always have opinions. Some are good, but most of them are not simply because they aren't based in practical experience. The internet has only made those inexperienced opinions louder. Don't let the loudest voices confuse you. Only listen to what logically fits within your vision, the rest is hot air.
Patches are the future and forums are nice soundboards. :D
Kilsin said:Community Debate - How much influence should a community have over the game's development? When so many people have differing opinions on any given topic, how do you think the opinions should be handled? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters
1. How much influence should a community have over the game's development? Honestly that is up to Dev's, if nothing else a post here or a post there should make them think and perhaps spark a conversation. I don't think the Everquest devs (Brad you could answer this) had any forums to read through and I don't recall anything prior to beta for Vanguard. I consider myself a tool of Panth....check that... These forums are in some way shape or form a tool for Pantheon. 8)
2. When so many people have differing opinions on any given topic, how do you think the opinions should be handled? Who cuts the checks? That person decides, its that simple. Sure; read, listen, learn... but ultimately make a decision and move forward, see things through and complete the task.
Good luck
As far as the community on social media, forums, etc. goes - unless something discussed/introduced at this point is completely contradictory to the original tenets - very little. I do agree with 187 though that if something is discussed in-line with the already proposed tenets/vision and would improve on said vision then it's fair game to be used/saved/implemented at a later date.
And, with the testing community, they should have more valuable feedback to tweak systems, but again, even there I don't believe complete overhauls should occur unless a system is found to be contradictory to the original tenets/vision... I'll not name a couple already proposed that I'd insert here - haha :)
