Nephele said:Keno Monster said:It seems like a half measure to me.
What makes you say this? "Half measure" implies that you think there's a design goal behind the decision (which is surely true) but that this alone doesn't achieve that design goal. Can you elaborate?
It doesn't matter what I think. I hope they just execute whatever they do well.
What purpose does this serve other than making it tedious to store and retrieve your gear?
We already have extremely limited fast travel option which means going from city to city is already going to be time consuming.
Now we are supposed to need to keep items at various banks... for what?
I just don't see what challenge this adds other than a level of tediousness to the game.
The unintended outcome of this is that its going to create "bubbles", areas which players do not want to leave because the difficulty in storing and retrieving various items. You'll end up with several of these areas throughout the world further segregating the playerbase.
I just don't see any value in this.
(And please God don't bring up immersion ;) )
Porygon said:What purpose does this serve other than making it tedious to store and retrieve your gear?
Exactly.
Porygon said:The unintended outcome of this is that its going to create "bubbles", areas which players do not want to leave because the difficulty in storing and retrieving various items. You'll end up with several of these areas throughout the world further segregating the playerbase.
EXACTLY!
Nephele said:In a recent dev interview, the team revealed that they are planning to have banks NOT be global in Pantheon. (See Bazgirm's writeup for this and other information - specifically, this was mentioned as part of a response to a question about item stats.)
To explain that, what it theoretically means is that if you have stuff in a bank in Thronefast.... the only place you can access it, is at the bank in Thronefast. If you're in Faerthale, it's a completely different bank.
In almost every MMO, ever, including EQ/P99, we're used to banks and item storage being globally accessible. Meaning we can access our stuff from any banker NPC anywhere in the world. If that's not the case in Pantheon, what could it potentially mean for the way we play the game?
Well maybe all MMOs had global banks for you, but Brad only made two MMOs. And the actual successor to EQ1, Vanguard had continental based banks.
As someone who loved Vanguard and played it a great deal, I did find that aspect to be very problematic. I did an extensive amount of crafting and having to constantly bounce around continents was enormously inconvenient.
In Vanguard the also had an artificial lock on the amount of platinum any one character could possess. It was ridiculusly low, like 40plat. or something at the start. As a crafter selling a ton of housing supplies, I blew past 40pp quickly. I had to constantly juggle alts to simply hold plat. Very, very bad decision on Brads part.
urgatorbait said:Having the banks be regional and not global is a classic example of realism versus unneeded aggravation/tedium. Global marketplace - sure. Banks, no. When I want my stuff I want reasonable access to it from any bank I may be near. My two cents.
What realism? It's a fantasy game.
I think it was the Templars in the 14 century that created the first functioning bank where you could travel to a far location (Paris and Jerusalem) and not have to carry all your wealth with you. Of course they made a mint off fees.
Porygon said:What purpose does this serve other than making it tedious to store and retrieve your gear?
We already have extremely limited fast travel option which means going from city to city is already going to be time consuming.
Now we are supposed to need to keep items at various banks... for what?
I just don't see what challenge this adds other than a level of tediousness to the game.
The unintended outcome of this is that its going to create "bubbles", areas which players do not want to leave because the difficulty in storing and retrieving various items. You'll end up with several of these areas throughout the world further segregating the playerbase.
I just don't see any value in this.
(And please God don't bring up immersion ;) )
Limited bank slot to force stocking in different regions ? ;)
Bubbles are fine because they will happen nonetheless, there is no point to make local HV"s and "meaningfull displacement of ressources" if everything can be instantly traveled across you bank slot, here goes away the mechanic of caravans, storage on mounts and such that have been advertised. If displacing gear, ressources and money takes some time, then bubbles will be there but staggered around the areas of gathering / loot.
I'm curious about how they will keep in touch with theses elements, but also eager to see it.
To see value you just have to see the market from another side. Valuables differs from region, as much as tediousness !
zewtastic said:urgatorbait said:Having the banks be regional and not global is a classic example of realism versus unneeded aggravation/tedium. Global marketplace - sure. Banks, no. When I want my stuff I want reasonable access to it from any bank I may be near. My two cents.
What realism? It's a fantasy game.
Not this nonsense again.
Parascol said:
Did this game have a system to allow you to transfer items from one location to another other than just carrying it?
Any way you look at this, regional banks are just an artificial impediment to an otherwise easy solution that has been an established "quality of life" feature in MMO's forever.
Sure, people can advocate that it makes for unique regional drops (in the beginning), but in the end, there will be hundreds of people hoofing items all over the world. The "uniqueness" of stuff from a different part of the world will not be unique for long.
If there were a mechanic for transporting stuff from one to another, that is just a money sink. One, that will not matter more and more the higher in level the player-base becomes.
Having a global bank is ultimately the best thing for any MMO. And as I said before, regionals are just an artifical impediment for no logical reason.
Bonechip said:
Parascol said:Did this game have a system to allow you to transfer items from one location to another other than just carrying it?
Any way you look at this, regional banks are just an artificial impediment to an otherwise easy solution that has been an established "quality of life" feature in MMO's forever.
Sure, people can advocate that it makes for unique regional drops (in the beginning), but in the end, there will be hundreds of people hoofing items all over the world. The "uniqueness" of stuff from a different part of the world will not be unique for long.
If there were a mechanic for transporting stuff from one to another, that is just a money sink. One, that will not matter more and more the higher in level the player-base becomes.
Having a global bank is ultimately the best thing for any MMO. And as I said before, regionals are just an artifical impediment for no logical reason.
Right, I am trying to understand what the benefit is (if any). It does sound like a money/time sink, but curious if there's other pros I'm not thinking of to base such a design decision around.
zewtastic said:Well maybe all MMOs had global banks for you, but Brad only made two MMOs. And the actual successor to EQ1, Vanguard had continental based banks.
As someone who loved Vanguard and played it a great deal, I did find that aspect to be very problematic. I did an extensive amount of crafting and having to constantly bounce around continents was enormously inconvenient.
In Vanguard the also had an artificial lock on the amount of platinum any one character could possess. It was ridiculusly low, like 40plat. or something at the start. As a crafter selling a ton of housing supplies, I blew past 40pp quickly. I had to constantly juggle alts to simply hold plat. Very, very bad decision on Brads part.
Wow zewt, bad day?
So, I played Vanguard pretty extensively for several years at its launch, and I don't remember this about it. I'm not saying you're wrong at all, just saying I don't remember it. Of course, I also had two mains that I worked up in parallel in Vanguard, and up until the very end when it was all Rahz/APW, their adventures pretty much kept them on the same continent. So, it's entirely likely that I just never really ran into the restriction when it was in place. I do remember that plat cap though and you're right, that was absolutely silly.
It is interesting to see the range of reactions to the current plan. It makes me glad I posted this thread - it's something real (or at least announced) that we can all discuss. There's a lot more I'd like to know before I decide whether I love it or hate it. Depending on how travel works, how buying and selling works, how gathering works, and how much travel I really need to do, it might be something that's a terrible inconvenience for me or it might not be all that big a deal. I dealt with localized storage for 11 years in EVE, and that was a game where you could lose everything if you weren't careful while moving stuff from place to place (I never had a freighter shot out from under me but I lost a few haulers in my time there). So I think for me, it will come down to two things: 1) Can I be an effective crafter (both in terms of making stuff and in terms of selling stuff) if I pick one city and do all my crafting there? 2) If I go adventuring further afield, will I constantly find myself having to port/gate/run home to use the bank, or will it be something that I only have to do occasionally? If both of those things work out, then I don't really mind it, even if long-distance travel takes multiple hours to accomplish. I'll just plan ahead.
Nephele said:zewtastic said:Well maybe all MMOs had global banks for you, but Brad only made two MMOs. And the actual successor to EQ1, Vanguard had continental based banks.
As someone who loved Vanguard and played it a great deal, I did find that aspect to be very problematic. I did an extensive amount of crafting and having to constantly bounce around continents was enormously inconvenient.
In Vanguard the also had an artificial lock on the amount of platinum any one character could possess. It was ridiculusly low, like 40plat. or something at the start. As a crafter selling a ton of housing supplies, I blew past 40pp quickly. I had to constantly juggle alts to simply hold plat. Very, very bad decision on Brads part.
Wow zewt, bad day?
So, I played Vanguard pretty extensively for several years at its launch, and I don't remember this about it. I'm not saying you're wrong at all, just saying I don't remember it. Of course, I also had two mains that I worked up in parallel in Vanguard, and up until the very end when it was all Rahz/APW, their adventurers pretty much kept them on the same continent. So, it's entirely likely that I just never really ran into the restriction when it was in place. I do remember that plat cap though and you're right, that was absolutely silly.
It is interesting to see the range of reactions to the current plan. It makes me glad I posted this thread - it's something real (or at least announced) that we can all discuss. There's a lot more I'd like to know before I decide whether I love it or hate it. Depending on how travel works, how buying and selling works, how gathering works, and how much travel I really need to do, it might be something that's a terrible inconvenience for me or it might not be all that big a deal. I dealt with localized storage for 11 years in EVE, and that was a game where you could lose everything if you weren't careful while moving stuff from place to place (I never had a freighter shot out from under me but I lost a few haulers in my time there. So I think for me, it will come down to two things: 1) Can I be an effective crafter (both in terms of making stuff and in terms of selling stuff) if I pick one city and do all my crafting there? 2) If I go adventuring further afield, will I constantly find myself having to port/gate/run home to use the bank, or will it be something that I only have to do occasionally? If both of those things work out, then I don't really mind it, even if long-distance travel takes multiple hours to accomplish. I'll just plan ahead.
Maybe it was just more a pain if you were a heavy duty crafter. I was max in all spheres, but to craft houses styles for each continent you had to raise skills for each continent. So essentially you had to max crafting three times. One for each continent. So it was brutal. And yeah, that plat cap eesentially made it necessary to have a 2nd account.
Frankly I was surprised to see such a crippling game mechanic in place just to defeat hackers. If it comes to that, there wont be much game to play after all the fun stuff get nerfed.
zewtastic said:Maybe it was just more a pain if you were a heavy duty crafter. I was max in all spheres, but to craft houses styles for each continent you had to raise skills for each continent. So essentially you had to max crafting three times. One for each continent. So it was brutal. And yeah, that plat cap eesentially made it necessary to have a 2nd account.
Frankly I was surprised to see such a crippling game mechanic in place just to defeat hackers. If it comes to that, there wont be much game to play after all the fun stuff get nerfed.
Ah ok I can totally see that. Nephele was a leatherworker (outfitter?) in Vanguard, so while I went and learned all three styles, I didn't need massive quantities of stuff to accomplish it - even the thatching and rigging recipes for houses and ships. But if you were doing the actual wood/stone for ships and houses? oof. that was a ton of resources. I had a couple of guildies who did all that, the rest of us just helped keep them supplied.
bryanleo9 said: It breaks immersion to got all across the game world and have my items in each bank. I hate that all MMOs do this. Local bank FTW!! Going on a long adventure and think you might need your bank items.....well pack up. Playing an EQ 1 iksar you learned to do this as everyone hated you. It was extremely immersive to have to plan out adventures this way. Finding people to bank for you near far off cities was wonderful for community building.
But carrying around 10 backpacks, 5 different weapons, a spare suit of armor, and a million platinum pieces is totally believable.
Darch said:In response to the comments/thoughts of people not needing to store money in a bank, I'd like to remind you that when you die, all of the belongings on your body stay with your body... including your money. I would also be willing to bet that there will be the need for food and water... which will also be left on your corpse. With my bard, I would always keep some extra stuff in my bank for CRs to include some instruments and stacks of food/drink. Haivng cash to pay for CR assistance or maybe checking the auctions while you're in town waiting for a rez is a thing too.
I was going to say this if someone else didn't; you want to have money in the bank when you die! Maybe if you're in a group with a rezzer it won't matter so much, but if you die in a different situation, you might need to donate for a port, for a rez, ...for a coffin!
I don't know what to think about local banks, I'll just have to play with it in alpha/beta to form an opinion... I see the possibilies of both positives and negatives. If some kind of item transport service is implemented like some have suggested, that could solve some negatives and take some coin out of the game as well.
An example; Anyone here ever play Elite Dangerous? If you're at one starport, and one of your ships or other items are at another starport, you can pay to have said item(s) transported to your current starport. There's nothing in-between the two locations you see travelling, it just happens.... but depending on the distance the items need to travel, it will cost more and take more time - it's not instant.
And, as a part-time PVPer, there is no way I am carrying all my money and/or interesting items on my character at all times. No idea what their PVP looting policy will be, but you don't ever carry the good stuff on you when you think someone might be able to loot it off your corpse. ;)
wildenightwolf said:And, as a part-time PVPer, there is no way I am carrying all my money and/or interesting items on my character at all times. No idea what their PVP looting policy will be, but you don't ever carry the good stuff on you when you think someone might be able to loot it off your corpse. ;)
Or Rogues pilfering them off you while you're still alive :)
One can hope!
I have to admit, I Really hope they keep localized banks. I've discovered in my MMO career that the more convenient the MMO is, the less interested I am in the game. Local banks will force me to make choices about my location, what and how much I place in each bank, and potentially how I invest in services to move my bank to a new city. Bonus points if VR complicates matters, like making different cities more enticing for different items. Such as crafting cities with high level trade guilds and smithing equipment that prompt you to store crafting materials there. Cities with cheap bulk storage but terrible positioning on the map. Expensive or limited storage in cities that would normally become default player hubs at high levels. I realize some people will find it tedious to manage inventory across the game world, but I welcome this. I miss making real choices about more than just gear and ability points.
Non-global banking may also entice VR to introduce new gameplay options. For example:
Time consuming and "tedious" design features are vectors for new gameplay, player interaction, and immersion. Even if VR does nothing but localize banks, I'm all for it. Features like this are why I'm even interested in this project in the first place. Modern MMOs are tripping over themselves to be the most convenient and accessible MMO experience. I yearn for an MMO that innovates in the opposite direction.
jadaski said:I have to admit, I Really hope they keep localized banks. I've discovered in my MMO career that the more convenient the MMO is, the less interested I am in the game. Local banks will force me to make choices about my location, what and how much I place in each bank, and potentially how I invest in services to move my bank to a new city. Bonus points if VR complicates matters, like making different cities more enticing for different items. Such as crafting cities with high level trade guilds and smithing equipment that prompt you to store crafting materials there. Cities with cheap bulk storage but terrible positioning on the map. Expensive or limited storage in cities that would normally become default player hubs at high levels. I realize some people will find it tedious to manage inventory across the game world, but I welcome this. I miss making real choices about more than just gear and ability points.
Non-global banking may also entice VR to introduce new gameplay options. For example:
- NPC caravans that allow players to move their entire bank in one trip, but require protection.
- Player caravans that require more effort to fund (see #4 and #6) but provide more options, such as #5.
- Unique bandit mobs (and bosses!) that spawn along caravan routes.
- Expensive, craftable wagons.
- Trade goods that are essentially junk items to players, but have varying prices across the world and require filling the hefty storage space of a wagon to make a trip across the game world worthwhile.
- Trainable riding skill for players to fill the role of wagoners, which requires a significant time, money, or gameplay investment to obtain, but are necessary for each wagon.
Time consuming and "tedious" design features are vectors for new gameplay, player interaction, and immersion. Even if VR does nothing but localize banks, I'm all for it. Features like this are why I'm even interested in this project in the first place. Modern MMOs are tripping over themselves to be the most convenient and accessible MMO experience. I yearn for an MMO that innovates in the opposite direction.
Post more.
I like the idea of local banks.
It could encourage players to interact with one another at the next hub to gear up again and perhaps that zone requires different things then the previous one and thus you'll be looking for others things playermade or collected in group.
Paying a fee to get certain items transferred from one bank to another makes sense to me. I do think an entire overview of all your inventory from the different banks is going to be too complex. Perhaps a search option could be a solution there.
There will still be ways to travel from one location to another (druids, mage). At least as far as we know already. There might be other solution discovered throughout the years. And of course there is that option that players will create a market for being being a temporary carrier for others. I could see this happening for people that are guildies or friends for example.
Maybe it is too early to already shoot the idea. There are still some years of testing to be done and like in other games, some inventory/bank overhauls can be done later in game if it should proof necessary.
Personally, I hope players will be inventive enough to find solutions instead of filing complaints to the dev's.