Naunet said:Kastor said: They should definitely exist. Pantheon and VR stick to your vision.Why? So you can get your jollies killing players who were minding their own business?
Yes :) I want to see the community erupt with drama when this happens. I want reputation to matter. It won't take long for the player to learn how grievous a mistake griefing is when they become blacklisted by an entire community. In a game that requires grouping/socialization it will be a harsh punishment.
In addition to this, groups will have to be very cautious when moving through dungeons. When things do go awry, suddenly everyone in the zone has a stake in restoring order.
Parascol said:Yes :) I want to see the community erupt with drama when this happens. I want reputation to matter. It won't take long for the player to learn how grievous a mistake griefing is when they become blacklisted by an entire community. In a game that requires grouping/socialization it will be a harsh punishment.In addition to this, groups will have to be very cautious when moving through dungeons. When things do go awry, suddenly everyone in the zone has a stake in restoring order.
I'm not a person who thrives on drama... I would much rather people not be handed more opportunities than necessary to be jerks.
I also think you're overestimating the power of reputation. Griefers hang out with other griefers, and they don't care one whit about their reputation - in fact, they WANT the bad reputation. That's not an effective control.
Naunet said:Parascol said:Yes :) I want to see the community erupt with drama when this happens. I want reputation to matter. It won't take long for the player to learn how grievous a mistake griefing is when they become blacklisted by an entire community. In a game that requires grouping/socialization it will be a harsh punishment.In addition to this, groups will have to be very cautious when moving through dungeons. When things do go awry, suddenly everyone in the zone has a stake in restoring order.
I'm not a person who thrives on drama... I would much rather people not be handed more opportunities than necessary to be jerks.
I also think you're overestimating the power of reputation. Griefers hang out with other griefers, and they don't care one whit about their reputation - in fact, they WANT the bad reputation. That's not an effective control.
Actually, I'm not. I played EQ for many years and the trains were spectacular. It could be frustrating at times sure, but overall, it just helped keep the zone feeling alive. When we are all new to Pantheon and see the chaos of trains as players learn the zones, it will be a mechanism that ultimately brings the community together. The griefers won't last long. They will either be forced to re-roll a new identity, or change servers entirely, or quit the game because they cannot get along with others.
But ultimately, it will trigger periods of zone cooperation and engagement, which is good.
Also, there will likely be GM's that can intervene if a griefer becomes too persistent.
Just to be clear to keep this thread on track, it's more about griefing dungeons with trains by pulling over fences or agro'ing something and jumping out of the dungeon from a "tiered" height, hence everything training and being pulled outside the dungeon (I'm aware falling damage was turned off for the stream). It's not about wanting tethers, it's about how is griefing going to be handled in dungeons where the physical dungeon allows you to escape easily or quickly.
Kilsin stated that it's a pre-alpha thing and should be fixed but it's just a reminder how design can easily be affected by griefing players.
Naunet said:Parascol said:Well then you just /petition a GM.An after-the-fact bandaid that doesn't work nearly as often as it should. It also doesn't address the question of - why give griefers more tools to grief than necessary?
It's not a band-aid. It's a deliberate design decision that requires the entire zone community to be aware and engaged, rather than just a few group members.
My perspective is that the pros far outweigh the cons. Will griefers exist? Sure, but as long as there are methods to deal with them, either by the community or VR staff, then I would much rather see trains be a 'feature'. It really helps make the community inside the zone feel more alive. Everyones decisions/mistakes/actions can have zone-wide consequences. This is how reputation is built. Social bonds are formed when groups 'bump' into each other, or step on each others toes and then forced to figure out ways to play nicely along-side one another.
It's fine if you don't agree with that, but I personally would like to see trains (risk) affect the whole zone. This friction is what I miss most about past mmo's.
I don't especially want trains, I don't want people griefing each others just because they have time to kill, but I don't want easy made-up mechanics that ends up doing more harm to the game than any griefer would. Resetting mobs, mobs ignoring players not engaged with them, theses mechanics are just making the world and the mobs worse and easier than they should. They are easily skippable, they are easily single pullable, and in the end, they represent a lower threat.
I prefer trains with bad people beeing flagged for that, than bandaid solutions that just reduce the game's overall danger. Accidental trains can be solved by deliberate safe spots and multiple zone exits, deliberate trains are only a behavior, and thus a problem requiring punishment, and not some super exploitable mechanic that only hope to prevent rare situation with a permanent impact on everyone..
I remember in Blackburrow this huge train was happening and like 4 groups worth of people were running. Sitting in the path going up was this huge ogre warrior blocking the path. I somehow glitched through his stomach by jumping repeatively and made it out a live, but man a ton of people died trying to get by the warrior blocking the path.
Really funny and everyone was laughing in chat while the ywere dying at the situation.