We saw it in lasts nights stream of community members.
It may have been in jest. A little, and it also held some validity, a little.
"Quick get to the boss before that other group does!" Was (almost) an exact quote from the stream last night.
As much as we love "remembering" the good ole days, times have changed and everyone knows where the important stuff is, it's on the bosses and last night was a microcosm of what the game in large part is going to be about.
Endearing as it may be, hearing Cohh talk about sitting on just grinding mobs endlessly for hours is not how anyone is going to play the game anymore.
On a positive note, the crew last night did A LOT better as a group than any of the other streams AND talking to the 2nd group to kill the last boss at the end was a nice gesture (one that will NEVER happen in live) only to be ruined by the ninja looting as soon as it died. (Not pointing fingers or saying anyone is to blame, just this is the community we have and this is the new old world we live in.)
Kittik said:We saw it in lasts nights stream of community members.
It may have been in jest. A little, and it also held some validity, a little.
"Quick get to the boss before that other group does!" Was (almost) an exact quote from the stream last night.
As much as we love "remembering" the good ole days, times have changed and everyone knows where the important stuff is, it's on the bosses and last night was a microcosm of what the game in large part is going to be about.
Endearing as it may be, hearing Cohh talk about sitting on just grinding mobs endlessly for hours is not how anyone is going to play the game anymore.
On a positive note, the crew last night did A LOT better as a group than any of the other streams AND talking to the 2nd group to kill the last boss at the end was a nice gesture (one that will NEVER happen in live) only to be ruined by the ninja looting as soon as it died. (Not pointing fingers or saying anyone is to blame, just this is the community we have and this is the new old world we live in.)
Feel free not to play.
Something you're not taking into account for... Right now there is a VERY small part of the world to play in for the alpha testers. When the world is "fully baked' there will be more areas for people to be in, instead of everyone packed into one dungeon.
Kalok said:Something you're not taking into account for... Right now there is a VERY small part of the world to play in for the alpha testers. When the world is "fully baked' there will be more areas for people to be in, instead of everyone packed into one dungeon.
While it is true the current world we've seen on the stream is very limited and the testing population is also very limited, scaling that up to live does not mean that there will not still be quite fierce competition for 'boss' content. Once people learn where they are and what they drop, there will be alot of 'lets get there first by any means necessary'. It behooves VR to plan for this eventuality and take great pains to monitor server populations to prevent overcrowding.
I haven't seen a game designed yet where the amount of content available for each teir (say every 7 levels) is of both equal quality and quantity. Because while quantity may exist, if the quality of some of that content is popularly perceived as sub-standard in terms of risk and reward, it will be quickly ignored thus forcing more people into fewer dungeons. I look back to EQ1 where SolB/LowerGuk were continually filled to capacity while Permafrost would sit near empty. SolB/LowerGuk were both lower risk with vastly greater reward.
Vandraad said:Kalok said:Something you're not taking into account for... Right now there is a VERY small part of the world to play in for the alpha testers. When the world is "fully baked' there will be more areas for people to be in, instead of everyone packed into one dungeon.
While it is true the current world we've seen on the stream is very limited and the testing population is also very limited, scaling that up to live does not mean that there will not still be quite fierce competition for 'boss' content. Once people learn where they are and what they drop, there will be alot of 'lets get there first by any means necessary'. It behooves VR to plan for this eventuality and take great pains to monitor server populations to prevent overcrowding.
I haven't seen a game designed yet where the amount of content available for each teir (say every 7 levels) is of both equal quality and quantity. Because while quantity may exist, if the quality of some of that content is popularly perceived as sub-standard in terms of risk and reward, it will be quickly ignored thus forcing more people into fewer dungeons. I look back to EQ1 where SolB/LowerGuk were continually filled to capacity while Permafrost would sit near empty. SolB/LowerGuk were both lower risk with vastly greater reward.
Of course there will be competition. Welcome to MMOs. That's why "camp calling" is a thing. If you jump other people's camps you will get a rep for being a jerk and nobody will want to play with you. Welcome to the way things worked back when MMOs were actually fun and challenging.
I *DO* agree that they are going to have to make more areas with comparable rewards, and to be honest, it looks like that's what they are doing. Look at the Orc camp in the previous videos compared to BRK. The mobs were probably pretty close to the same level. There seemed to be a decent population as well. There wasn't alot of looting however in either one.
That being said.... Looking at a PRE-ALPHA and claiming "Oh noes!! Teh uber l00tz!!" is kind of silly.
Kittik said:We saw it in lasts nights stream of community members.
It may have been in jest. A little, and it also held some validity, a little.
"Quick get to the boss before that other group does!" Was (almost) an exact quote from the stream last night.
As much as we love "remembering" the good ole days, times have changed and everyone knows where the important stuff is, it's on the bosses and last night was a microcosm of what the game in large part is going to be about.
Endearing as it may be, hearing Cohh talk about sitting on just grinding mobs endlessly for hours is not how anyone is going to play the game anymore.
On a positive note, the crew last night did A LOT better as a group than any of the other streams AND talking to the 2nd group to kill the last boss at the end was a nice gesture (one that will NEVER happen in live) only to be ruined by the ninja looting as soon as it died. (Not pointing fingers or saying anyone is to blame, just this is the community we have and this is the new old world we live in.)
While you are not wrong in how you feel I believe that while the group was playing 2 pieces of gear dropped of regular mobs that were upgrades. I know at least one piece of gear dropped but I think it was 2 off of regular mobs. In this game downing the boss will not be the only viable way of getting upgrades for your character.
This topic has been discussed ad naseum. Brad as well has addressed it in streams. Too little content, prime content. Too many players.
The simple answer is more content. The most complex answer was don't put all your good drops on a handful of named mobs in a handful of dungeons.
Whether they can pull it off will require a few more years of waiting for the content.
Kittik said:Endearing as it may be, hearing Cohh talk about sitting on just grinding mobs endlessly for hours is not how anyone is going to play the game anymore.
I will still play the game that way. I was never big into raiding, and I am sure there are many more like me.
Kalok said:Feel free not to play.
Something you're not taking into account for... Right now there is a VERY small part of the world to play in for the alpha testers. When the world is "fully baked' there will be more areas for people to be in, instead of everyone packed into one dungeon.
Oh you got me. I won't play now.
The point of this topic was because I want to play. I'm sure the dev team knows times have changed and are working to make the adjustments. But just in case, last nights stream was a good reminder that things aren't as they used to be.
The Thronefast staring area might be huge! HUGE! But if that huge area is soon discovered to have 3 prime areas, that HUGE area is a waste of time, resources and effort.
I'm by no means hating on this game or the team, I want success as much as the next person so I voice my concerns here where, hopefully, a small reminder will be triggered in the teams head. But then I post something with slight critisim and people on here get all uppity. Its the fault of those uppity people who do nothing but say "wow" "omg" "youre the best" "that horrible design is brilliant" are the people who ruin games.
Kittik said:Kalok said:Feel free not to play.
Something you're not taking into account for... Right now there is a VERY small part of the world to play in for the alpha testers. When the world is "fully baked' there will be more areas for people to be in, instead of everyone packed into one dungeon.
Oh you got me. I won't play now.
The point of this topic was because I want to play. I'm sure the dev team knows times have changed and are working to make the adjustments. But just in case, last nights stream was a good reminder that things aren't as they used to be.
The Thronefast staring area might be huge! HUGE! But if that huge area is soon discovered to have 3 prime areas, that HUGE area is a waste of time, resources and effort.
I'm by no means hating on this game or the team, I want success as much as the next person so I voice my concerns here where, hopefully, a small reminder will be triggered in the teams head. But then I post something with slight critisim and people on here get all uppity. Its the fault of those uppity people who do nothing but say "wow" "omg" "youre the best" "that horrible design is brilliant" are the people who ruin games.
I am presuming that you know what the term PRE-ALPHA means. And the fact that they only have a couple of zones to be able to test in. You're going to get "collisions" in them. That is to be expected. You're borrowing trouble. How about you worry about it if it's still a thing into beta.
You're taking something that is not completed, hell it's barely started, and basically calling it crap.
Fulton said:Kittik said:Endearing as it may be, hearing Cohh talk about sitting on just grinding mobs endlessly for hours is not how anyone is going to play the game anymore.
I will still play the game that way. I was never big into raiding, and I am sure there are many more like me.
it doesn't matter what they do, they will never please everyone.
So in EQ I used to camp gators in SRO and Orcs in East Commons. Neither camp dropped a single thing but were low risk, but Good exps.
i used to go to Befallen. I don't remember getting a single drop from the dungeon, but it was SO Stupid fun, it ended up being my favorite dungeon ever. I always couldn't wait for lev 5-6 so I could run straight to Befallen to get a group.
Why will people NOT do that again???
All these people that are asking: What do i do if I can't get a group? You try to get a group anywhere there are exps. Not every leveling hour has to be "because the Loots"
Of course everything will be camped. I just hope Pantheon has MORE stuff to do that BRK and one more dungeon. There needs to be like 10 dungeons that range from 5 to 50
Flapp said:Why will people NOT do that again???
The population of players who are risk averse whill absolutely take the path where reliable xp, even when not gained in the most optimal manner nor at the fastest rate. And lets not kid ourselves, that type of player will represent a significant portion of the playerbase.
Kittik said:"Quick get to the boss before that other group does!" Was (almost) an exact quote from the stream last night.
As much as we love "remembering" the good ole days, times have changed and everyone knows where the important stuff is, it's on the bosses and last night was a microcosm of what the game in large part is going to be about.
Endearing as it may be, hearing Cohh talk about sitting on just grinding mobs endlessly for hours is not how anyone is going to play the game anymore.
I didn't see a problem with the boss bum-rush, share kill, help, KS or whatever else it can be called. Its gonna happen in the world of Terminus, so I'd personally get use to it. What's the alternative? Change the game? Perhaps, make dungeon bosses instanced just to eliminate this perticular struggle? Nah. I imagine that rushing in this game will only get you killed or cause a train so I wouldn't worry too much.
Gamers today, young and old will either hate everything about this game, completely love everything, endure it enough to stay and persevere or leave. The key will be in the retention of players over all, not the players who can't really hang with stuff they aren't happy with. If you're old enough you know you can't please everyone and there is no point in tryin. Besides, there is plenty of f2p trash out there and its f2p for a reason.
Lets face it. Sometimes you're gonna want help from someone. Extra heals, dps, etc. I'd rather they help me than stand there watching me die only to take the boss for themselves.
Kittik said:We saw it in lasts nights stream of community members.
It may have been in jest. A little, and it also held some validity, a little.
"Quick get to the boss before that other group does!" Was (almost) an exact quote from the stream last night.
As much as we love "remembering" the good ole days, times have changed and everyone knows where the important stuff is, it's on the bosses and last night was a microcosm of what the game in large part is going to be about.
Endearing as it may be, hearing Cohh talk about sitting on just grinding mobs endlessly for hours is not how anyone is going to play the game anymore.
On a positive note, the crew last night did A LOT better as a group than any of the other streams AND talking to the 2nd group to kill the last boss at the end was a nice gesture (one that will NEVER happen in live) only to be ruined by the ninja looting as soon as it died. (Not pointing fingers or saying anyone is to blame, just this is the community we have and this is the new old world we live in.)
Except they didn't ninja loot. They asked in "say" for Bazgrim to loot the axe and belt to link it on his Twitch for the viewers to see, but the doofus was busy running and jumping off the Keep. You can see all this on Nick's stream, since he was the last to stick around up there, but even Nick got side tracked with climbing the wall/fence to do his train pull at the end, so he didn't bother to click the link so we could see the stats on the items.
On Live, you would have several camps on the Ramparts. One group would be over at the Arch Mage tower, another group would be camping the Baron. Hopefully those two named are rare as hell, so you could go an entire night without seeing them, and if you do see them, hopefully they have an extremely rare drop on top of a normal drop ala EQ1. That'll keep those camps going non-stop. And if another group wants to come up and DPS race the spawn, well, that's how it goes. You can always train them or call in back up to help with DPS. Hopefully, most people will respect a camp.
Yea. I hate to admit some of the examples stated in first post are actually kind of fun. Numerious times in my mmorpg experience there has been occasions where groups are going for same contested mob. Sometimes you win, sometimes you loose the camps. Helps when you know the layout... know where other camps might be open. I know it is an old school thought but these are some of the things that build community. Ya get a chance to either push your team harder to beat them.. or fear the target and chance of death and say.. hey let them go ahead and try to kill... maybe we can get lucky and they will break the mob enough for us to snag it. It is simply an element of uncontrolled varation having groups leap frogging.
I do have faith in dev team. They are well aware of some struggles to keep entire zone viable beyond bosses. They will be equiping random trash mobs with loot or upgrades so sometimes even that boring grind can yeild upgrades to party members without access to Bosses. The streams have only shown 3 active zones to hunt in and I believe they are still very limited in scope for reason of the alpha does not seem to be... put out biggest zones but to focus on core functions, refining of class skill, LOS issues, vertical jump issues..Not sure we are seeing more then 24 people online. Some zones are so small you can only really hold 2 or 3 parties at most. Again they are very simular to going to a gun range... its to fix the basics. There will also be other ways to get loot. seen glimpses of how the perception system works which can show potential at getting other gear or class specific functions to forge rivers, rogue drop ropes and so forth.
Overall Totally digging what I have seen in the streams. Already the grouping has proven to be imperative to any success in game. So that core game function works to perfection.
I have no issue with a race to the boss. That happens when the camp is free and more than one group is aiming for it. Winner takes it all as it were. Kind of a fun mini game. What isn't fun is people not respecting camps and trying to steal a mob from people. I am hoping that in addition to a bad rep being shared out that there is some form of support from the Devs. In EQ camps technically were not a thing so when asshats came along there was little you could do. That said, there was a certain satisfaction of out DPSing camp stealers.
A lot of people here like competition. Or at least they remember it fondly looking at EQ through the rose-colored glasses named nostalgia.
Quite a few people here have glasses where a manufacturing defect omitted the rose. They want more cooperation than competition and encouragements for people to work together.
Other threads highlight the dichotomy quite well, as in the debate over whether a system that allows people to take away mobs by doing even slightly more damage than the puller is a good system.
I hope that VR goes in for moderation - and allows for some things to be cooperative while others are more competitive.
If they adapt one of Barry Goldwater's famous quotes along the lines of "Extremism in the pursuit of bosses is no vice. Moderation in the defense of getting their first is no virtue" there will be many unhappy players.
I just think everyone miss remembers how they think they used to play EQ. Or even if they know exactly how they used to play EQ. Times have changed. We have long threads about how little commitment we can give a game these days. So I thought it was so extreamly fitting that when it came down to it (regardless of how little game world there currently is) the first thing we hear is "Lets get to the boss before that other group."
Kalok said:Feel free not to play.
Something you're not taking into account for... Right now there is a VERY small part of the world to play in for the alpha testers. When the world is "fully baked' there will be more areas for people to be in, instead of everyone packed into one dungeon.
Well yes, that.
But also, things like player driven rules like what defines a camp are not established yet. Also, named are supposedly going to randomize their pop location.
Kalok said:I am presuming that you know what the term PRE-ALPHA means. And the fact that they only have a couple of zones to be able to test in. You're going to get "collisions" in them. That is to be expected. You're borrowing trouble. How about you worry about it if it's still a thing into beta.
You're taking something that is not completed, hell it's barely started, and basically calling it crap.
Can we please stop saying "BUT IT'S IN PRE-ALPHA!! DUH!!" With that sort of mentality why even have conversations at all? Just delete the forums and pray that they get everything right 100%.
Avaen said:Kalok said:I am presuming that you know what the term PRE-ALPHA means. And the fact that they only have a couple of zones to be able to test in. You're going to get "collisions" in them. That is to be expected. You're borrowing trouble. How about you worry about it if it's still a thing into beta.
You're taking something that is not completed, hell it's barely started, and basically calling it crap.
Can we please stop saying "BUT IT'S IN PRE-ALPHA!! DUH!!" With that sort of mentality why even have conversations at all? Just delete the forums and pray that they get everything right 100%.
LOL. So right.
The emperor has no clothes. They could launch, drop DLC and still say it's pre-alpha.
I thought it was nice to see the two groups get together to defeat the Boss with the hurtful axe on the rampart.
That kind of instant camraderie like the impromptu soccer match between opposing sides on christmas day in WW1 was nice to see "emerge"
To that end, maybe a mechanic that will allow an insta-mini group grouping (mini-raid?) with two groups? this may also resolve any lockdown/loot issues too since both groups would have lockouts/flags and also chance at loots.
Maybe it can be coded that this particular monster can only have a max of two groups at level 30 attack it to prevent zerging? and if that is possible, can the loot table also be dynamic? So if two groups of 30 attack- the monster looks for DLL loot table B, that includes axe, cloak and maybe boots and gauntlets that are "spawned" in its inventory upon death. But if only one group engages, the dead monster looks at the DLL table and randomly selects 2 of the 4 (or 8?) items on he loot table. (how come warriors drop caster loot! *gnashes teeth*) lol.
Zerging is generally frowned upon, considered bad form but it still a tactic and sadly, often used by Botfarmers (not BOX farmers). However - if I understand correctly- the lockout mechanic will even the playing field so the RMTbots wont be able to re-engage the same monster while at the same time allowing the all gnome group to have a shot.
Avaen said:Kalok said:I am presuming that you know what the term PRE-ALPHA means. And the fact that they only have a couple of zones to be able to test in. You're going to get "collisions" in them. That is to be expected. You're borrowing trouble. How about you worry about it if it's still a thing into beta.
You're taking something that is not completed, hell it's barely started, and basically calling it crap.
Can we please stop saying "BUT IT'S IN PRE-ALPHA!! DUH!!" With that sort of mentality why even have conversations at all? Just delete the forums and pray that they get everything right 100%.
Agree. We all have a very good idea of what to expect out of this game given the devs, their previous successes, and the playerbase this game has attracted so far. I thought his responses were quite out of line per the OP's discussion. There will be users who will rush for bosses, loot, and attempt KS/camp theft. We also know there will be a mix of crawling and camps per previous dev posts.