Now that we have the 12 class abilities revealed, I'm sure a lot of us have been strategizing which classes will synergize best. I think the Community Stream's group last night had a good class mix, and wanted to take a look at what the remaining classes were (excluding Bard and Nec) and how that group would compare.
Group 1: Paladin, Dire Lord, Cleric, Ranger, Wizard, and Enchanter.
vs.
Group 2: Warrior, Shaman, Druid, Monk, Rogue, and Summoner.
Sure, Group 2's Monk could back-up tank, especially with the additional healer, and the Rogue and Summoner's DPS may be comparable to Group 1's Ranger and Wizard's DPS. When deciding which of these groups I'd pick, I really think it comes down to that Enchanter. You don't need an additional healer if you're avoiding any combat through Crowd Control. The Enchanter's CC just makes XPing cleaner and more efficient, maybe that's why this poll on Reddit has Encs as the most picked class for Pantheon:
https://www.strawpoll.me/13130674/r
I'm curious to which group above you would choose, but more specifically, if you would choose the group without the Enchanter.
While I like your choices, I'd go with DireLord, Shaman, Druid, Rogue, Ranger, Monk instead.
Depends on how sustainable a group's pulling/efficiency can be without an enchanter. Otherwise I'd pick group 2: monk can split pull with feign death so mez wouldn't be needed too much, rogue can CC at least 1 add if it came to that and I am sure the other classes will at the very least have a root or something to ghetto CC.
I would rather have a warrior tank in the melee heavy group as they offer more synergy than the dire lord, IMO.
What people may be forgetting is much like Tank or Healer archetype, CC archetype isn't just CC, it's support. 70-80% of what the Enchanter brings to group isn't from CC. It's Melee Haste, Spell Haste, Mana regen, Mana from nukes, Melee Slow/Spell Slow, Melee Damage Reduction, Interrupt that Silences, PBAE Stuns, Mem Blurs, group illusion to avoid aggro, Lull spells to pull singles or split pull, etc. Like in EQ1, the damage brought to the group through mana regens and hastes can be broken down to added damage.
In EQ1 for instance, if that Enchanter has a 70% haste, and you have two melee DPS in the group, that Enchanter is now just from haste, doing near or as much as another Melee DPS. You can argue about the particulars, but what if you add four melee classes, three of which are DPS. Then you plan into the idea of 'Force Multiplication'. They also play into healing as through slows, you have damage mitigation. You could argue Mezes as well since you don't have tanks offtanking causing the Healer to now be OOM early on the fight because they have no mana regen sources and they have to heal multiple targets. Slows mitigate the damage done. With Pantheon though, you also have spell haste which can lend to output if needed not just from DPS, but also healers in their healing that when matched with the two methods Enchanters can give them mana, means an overall improvement in performance, not just how much they can heal, but how quickly if dealing with multiple targets to heal.
Here's the thing about Control/Support archetype. By definition because it's a force multiplier, just by buffs alone, it can be more DPS than a DPS class if enough are in the group, but Enchanters don't stack with each other. Discounting Charm, if you have two Enchanters in a group, you run into the issue of a loss of performance that could be met with another DPS which do stack, or a Tank, or Healer as a utility/DPS slot. My issue though is that we don't have the Bard yet and if they can provide as much group potential to the group as an Enchanter, it behooves VR to create stacking issues or caps with their buffs, otherwise every group will want a Bard and an Enchanter, then two DPS.
My point is, while you can do any type of group you want, keep in mind the function of the Tank, Healer, Control/Support, DPS archetypes. You can make groups without each but each are vital. Typically Healer being the most, then Tank followed closely by CC/Support then DPS. The triangle of support (Tank, Healer, CC/Support) is vital in the quatrinity. With just a Cleric, Tank and Enchanter in EQ1, you could do things most full groups couldn't do. While various group set ups work, there are some that will be structured to be the bedrock of stability.
Tanks are never competing with DPS, Healers are never competing with Tanks (in most cases) and DPS shouldn't be competing with CC/Support. They're apples and oranges in terms of their potential and use of function. If you really want to throw a group structure against the one in the stream, try five Summoners and an Enchanter, or five Monks and a Shaman or Druid. Or a Monk, Shaman, Cleric, Summoner, Rogue and Ranger. Or what about six Dire Lords? Since people seem to be thinking outside the box of group structure but for some reason still consider Healers or Tanks, there are other ways to go about it.
As for the poll, the issue with the poll and the others after it including the one detailing the revealed classes, you run into the issue of lack of DPS. I detailed it a bit here.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1q-OK1vgnlic27yfnZKVYfRTKGbXHxEusIBws9iONvIM/edit?usp=sharing
and here's the one from June with the Bard and Necro included.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1psuzyXlQ1gd0TUP2wjmaFJlhRgIakFZm8-bvDywTA8o/edit?usp=sharing
I decided to also do one for the poll you linked from June of 2017.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1g7-_u4DxuM2tWwgZGcYuUORCMawuWdeM6abVKKGoHIw/edit?usp=sharing
Due mostly to mana regen buffs, slows, and mana splashing nukes, any group without an Enchanter is going to be at a disadvantage in terms of time to kill over an extended period due to healer mana issues. And that's not even taking into account the Enchanter's CC abilities to avoid potential wipes. Perhaps you can roll with a Shaman to slow on overland relatively easy content and be fine, but for level appropriate or difficult content, the Enchanter is a must have in order to kill/regen fast enough to stay ahead of repops, let alone handle big pulls. Maybe the Bard can replace the Enchanter at some point, but for now, any group without an Enchanter is incorrectly configured.
To be clear though, this is VR's fault. They touted "CONTROL" as part of the quaternity, and rightly so IMO, but then they only developed ONE Control class. They should have at least three. The Enchanter, Bard, and maybe the Necro. I think it was a great decision by VR to make Control a key part of the game and a role that is heavily needed in any group. I think it was a moronic decision to create only one class to fill that role. Enchanter is a God. No doubt. And it's VR's fault for designing just one class to fill such an important role.
@Mathir
This may be why Bard is the front runner in the release of the two additional classes. I would hope they get them in either before or during Beta with their full skill set then have Beta testers who want to play one, of which there will be tons among the PA, Alpha nad Beta testers and to give feedback so they can get the class set up before launch. I'm not a fan currently of only an Enchanter for that role. I can see two working fine since you really only have three healers or three tanks, but that has to be the bare minimum for it not to look a bit ridiculous.
Mathir said:To be clear though, this is VR's fault. They touted "CONTROL" as part of the quaternity, and rightly so IMO, but then they only developed ONE Control class. They should have at least three. The Enchanter, Bard, and maybe the Necro. I think it was a great decision by VR to make Control a key part of the game and a role that is heavily needed in any group. I think it was a moronic decision to create only one class to fill that role. Enchanter is a God. No doubt. And it's VR's fault for designing just one class to fill such an important role.
Right. They addressed CC as part of the quadrinity. Other classes may have 1 or maybe 2 stuns/roots, but can't do it as well as the Enchanter, the only true CC thus far. A few streams ago, Devs introduced us to Ambient Mobs. These are mobs that you can't initially see, like spiders crawling out of cracks in Halnir Cave. They basically spawn on top of you and "have high damage output but very little health." So you would need a dedicated CC for the standard mobs you XP through, plus these Ambient Mobs.
Any group with a Monk doesn't need an enchanter for crowd control. The Monk just brings singles.
Enchanters will be able to keep PUGs alive, but it won't be the steady-singles XP that a Monk brings. It would be more risky/costly without a Monk, because whatever puller will be worse at (or require consumables) to pull singles.
It's true Enchanters bring other buffs, but as long as a Shaman slows the single, and you're killing singles steadily because you have the Monk, that's the path to success. You can sit there and do that all day long without the need for extra/out-of-group/pay-for buffs that may require an Enchanter. A slowed single can beat on just about anyone for a few seconds while either the entire group kills it before it kills whoever, or until the tank can re-acquire aggro.
So, as has been mentioned in other threads:
Monk, Shaman, any, any, any, any. (ideally four DPS)
Vandraad said:Kittik said:Warrior, Cleric, DPS, DPS, DPS, Enchanter
But which DPS? Melee or Caster? A caster out of mana gives zero DPS while a melee, even with just autoattack still puts out damage..just saying.
Good point.
Warrior, Cleric, Ranger, Rouge, (omg please let Bards be in release), Enchanter
vjek said:Kittik said:Are monks going to be able to tank in this game? All the streams I've seen, a monk has never been MT. That could be for a reason.
After it's slowed? Yes.
" Group Role: Melee DPS, Off-Tanking, Utility"
Yes, Off-Tanking is a Monk only ability. It's where they ride on the back of the tank the entire fight and only get off after the mobs are dead.
Kittik said:But which DPS? Melee or Caster? A caster out of mana gives zero DPS while a melee, even with just autoattack still puts out damage..just saying.
Good point.
Warrior, Cleric, Ranger, Rouge, (omg please let Bards be in release), Enchanter
Hm... what color Rouge would the Rogue be wearing? *winks*
wildenightwolf said:Kittik said:Vandraad said:But which DPS? Melee or Caster? A caster out of mana gives zero DPS while a melee, even with just autoattack still puts out damage..just saying.
Good point.
Warrior, Cleric, Ranger, Rouge, (omg please let Bards be in release), Enchanter
Hm... what color Rouge would the Rogue be wearing? *winks*
Haha, oops. But I'm guessing - Rouge Hermès – deep wine red with blue and pink undertones.
Cynwulf said:My ideal group would probably be Paladin(though any dedicated tank would do), Shaman(though any dedicated healer would do), Rogue, Ranger or Monk, Summoner(though any dedicated magic based dps would do), Enchanter.
Sorry but I find that quite funny. You say 'ideal group' then go with any dedicated tank, any dedicated healer, either rogue, ranger or monk and any dedicated magic dps. So basically your idea group is....any classes within the 4 archetypes.
@Vandraad
I mean, in his defense, the quatrinity is designed for just that concept, the ideal group makeup. Yes you can do it without DPS, Tanks or Control/Support and even Healers but you want the archetypes for the structure and stability, especially in much more challenging content. If you don't have that Healer or that Control/CC, Tank etc, yes you can do exp groups and suitable content, but nothing of great challenge that's designed to challenge the most stable and competent variation.
Dire Lord, Cleric, Shaman, Wizard, Enchanter, Summoner
Single tank, but the Summoner can pull out his earth elemental as an OT in a pinch. Dire lord can ramp up threat exponentially, allowing the wizard to go nuts. Shaman and enchanter can both empower the wizard through buffs/debuffs. Shaman can make enemies weak to both nature and fire (primary damage sources for wizard and summoner) and can provide a nice crit bonus. Cleric + Shaman healing should be quite potent, blending strong direct healing + HOT. Strong single target + strong group healing.
I personally don't think comparing groups based on classes will really get us anywhere. Once you have the needed basics (tank/healer) then the rest can work itself out.
In my opinion it's really going to come down to the players themselves. Some players are going to be better than others, and I'd rather pick players I want to group with than classes I want to group with.
Also, as long as the players in my group 1) are not jerks, 2) don't suck, I'm sure I can work with them :-)
