Kittik said:What Quality of Life systems do we come to expect now a days that EQ didn't have on release? Or what are some you know of that we shouldn't have.
I think at minimum you should have:
Some form of damage meter in game.
The ability to mail items and money to players.
Some form of LFG tool.
A basic map with or without a location indicator.
Some form of fast travel after you discover a certain area or hit a certain level. (Once your maxxed idc about discovering the world).
Me too. I agree with your first 3, and most definitely not the last 2.
Can you clarify what you mean by "damage meter" Porygon? I'm asking because my initial reaction is "no, that's not necessary" but I want to understand what you were referring to before I can really be sure if I agree or disagree with you there :)
For me, I'm not sure where you draw the line on something as being QoL or not QoL. I think it all matters. Off the top of my head here's what I'd like to see:
1) A fully developed mail system that allows me to send text, items, or money to others, including "reply" functionality and support for group conversations, and where my friends list or guild roster could also function as an address book so I don't have to remember how to spell someone's name.
2) An LFG tool that allows me to both find groups to join, as well as find more people to join my group. I want to be able to see class/level/guild name/location, and I want to be able to input some text like "frenzy camp" or "looking for throne room group" as well.
3) A chat system that allows me to create, maintain, and share control of both permanent and temporary custom chat channels.
4) A "travel" system that allows players who plan ahead to insure that they can all be in the same general area for an upcoming adventure, without necessarily having to log in and spend an hour running there ahead of time. Please note, this does not mean I support instant travel or teleport-to-group scenarios, but if I know that Saturday's raid is going to be on the next continent over, I should be able to join a caravan headed that way before logging out on Friday night, and then that way on Saturday I'm in the general vicinity of where I need to be.
5) A fully-realized player search system (/who) that allows me to filter by location, race, class, level, or guild name. In addition, players should have the option to hide some/all of that information from the search system - so for example someone could hide their guild tag from displaying in the list, or they could hide their class and level for roleplaying purposes.
6) /guildstatus. Because even if someone has hidden their guild tag from casual view, reputation doesn't matter if they can be completely anonymous.
7) A fully-developed Guild UI that allows me to manage my guild roster, associate privileges with different ranks, see historical information like when someone joined or the last time they were online, and even make notes like known alts, etc.
8) A fully-developed Raid UI that allows me to manage my raid group, seamlessly move people between groups that are in the raid, and generally get things organized and up and running easily.
9) Robust loot rights that allows me as a group/raid leader to set the loot control system that works best for my group or raid, whether that's Master Loot, NBG, Roll/Pass, FFA, or Auto-rotate. Bonus points if it allows me to set a secondary system that only applies based on item rarity - for example, master loot on anything that's a "rare" or better, and Auto-rotate on the rest.
10) Easy-to-get-to UI windows for secondary character information such as: Faction standings, lockout timers, artifact progression, epic ability progression, and so on - in addition to the various inventory paperdolls, skills windows, spellbook, character stats, and so on.
I should stop here. I'm sure some folks will think of something that I have forgotten that counts as a "QoL" feature :)
Lol. I knew most people wont agree with the fast travel. But by limiting it to max or near max level and maybe requiring an exploration quest to unlock it. I feel it wouldn't really impact the game. Max level is all about traveling from point a to point b to complete task x.
Nephele said:Can you clarify what you mean by "damage meter" Porygon? I'm asking because my initial reaction is "no, that's not necessary" but I want to understand what you were referring to before I can really be sure if I agree or disagree with you there :)
I just want a damage meter that takes the information already available to us (hits misses, crits, damage heals etc) and displays it in a nice meter that allows me to determine which of my 5 wizards are underperforming so I can communicate with them and figure out how to maximize their potential. (I am typically a hardcore raider).
I would also love for the damage meter to be able to break down %s ot damage from different abilities to allow for some basic theorycrafting... but honestly a basic damage meter is all I need.
The reason I consider this a QoL feature is because there is and will be parsing systems made for Pantheon (since I doubt VR will remove the ability to log) which can act in real time. It's easier to just have this feature included in the game.
I know that the biggest argument against this is that it will turn casual groups into "who's the worst player, who's holding us back" but I really dont think so. Sure you might get the occasional Ahole, but even myself, who identifies as an elitist, doesnt really care what a pug is doing in a random exp group. I will at the very least. Send a tell and try to help the person of it's a class I'm familiar with and they care to improve.
Syrif said:Me too. I agree with your first 3, and most definitely not the last 2.
Nvm. I forgot the order of things I listed.
I agree almost entirely with Nephele.
I disagree with most people here about travel and maps. That is OK; if I always agreed with everyone else I would contribute neither different arguments for VR to consider nor points that can be debated.
Travel - I most certainly agree that it needs to be slower and more difficult by far than in most MMOs. But I feel that there should be rapid travel between points that your character has already been to where slow travel would just be tedious the 10th or 50th time. Not fast travel between cities and adventure zones - fast travel between some of the cities. This would not make it too easy to travel between mercantile hubs and adventure areas but would limit tedium in traveling between mercantile hubs.
Maps - I share the universal view that we shouldn't have radar and maps that let you see any mob anywhere near you and many points of interest. I do *not* share the common view that our characters should be forced to do without things that our ancestors used for millenia. A map showing where I am, showing what direction I am facing and showing major points of interest that my character should with absolute certainly be likely to know about is not the same thing as radar.
1. If I cannot have maps of places I am going to - why not maps of places I have been. Did my character get amnesia overnight and forget a river was 20 units east of it just because I the player may have been off-line for a week and forgotten?
2. If I am headed to the mercantile hub in the Butt Cheeks hills is it seriously likely that no one I speak to on the way can tell me that the city (or even town) is roughly 200 units away and it is north not south?
Granted if I am in an area unknown to people in areas I am coming from having no map at all is rational though I would still know the direction I was headed if I could see sun, moon or stars.
Many of these features have either been confirmed to be or not be in the game as far as the most recent live stream Q&A.
I remember in Lineage2 we could teleport between the major towns and imporant areas in the game. You had to pay a small amount of adena but it was better than running 20 minutes. A feature like this wouldn't be bad. That way you are closer to the area you need to quest in or the dungeon you need to get to, and you can leave from a town so you can stock up on supplies before you head out.
I would like to see player housing or some sort of guild hall that your guild can purchase.
I don't see any reason not to have some fast travel options available between cities. There's nothing much fun about riding your horse through 45 minutes of lower level zones with nothing of interest just to meet up with an NPC in a different town for some reason. Games are meant to be fun. Similar reasoning leads to including permanent map exploration (preferably with some ability to pin-cushion and add notes but at the very least a persistent geography map); this isn't a cartography/surveying on-line class. No "radar" showing nearby mobs etc. is perfectly fine (although class / race / profession abilities that do have a pretty limited area of effect ability to highlight applicable items wouldn't be objectionable to me).
Damage meters are much more questionable as they are, to put it bluntly, a tool often misused in an extremely toxic manner (healing meters have the added issue of being ridiculous and encouraging more poor gameplay than damage meters do). If they want to put in target dummies somewhere for players to try different things and provide meters telling you how you do at wrecking them that's one thing. Full blown meters usable to chat-shame players etc. is a different thing.
Porygon said:Kittik said:What Quality of Life systems do we come to expect now a days that EQ didn't have on release? Or what are some you know of that we shouldn't have.
I think at minimum you should have:
Some form of damage meter in game.
The ability to mail items and money to players.
Some form of LFG tool.
A basic map with or without a location indicator.
Some form of fast travel after you discover a certain area or hit a certain level. (Once your maxxed idc about discovering the world).
I like a lot of these ideas, but no sending money through mail, it can lead to a lot of problems when dealing with RMTing, when it comes to LFG function I think a cool idea to have would be like a pub or bar people can go to to hang out and you can talk to a bartender or something and can list what you want to do (AS in what dungeon etc.) LFM as in what you need to fill out the grp, level range and such and it gets put on a billboard that players can interact with, for one this will be a huge why to bring the community together in a central spot without scuttling zine chat with LFG, LFM messages and would be an excellent way to see new people and simply enjoy these areas come to life which would also bring in other great things that other people would want. I don't care about fast travel becuase it makes the world way to small and boring, and I believe druids can port so that's a form of fast travel if you can find a druid
Porygon said:I just want a damage meter that takes the information already available to us (hits misses, crits, damage heals etc) and displays it in a nice meter that allows me to determine which of my 5 wizards are underperforming so I can communicate with them and figure out how to maximize their potential. (I am typically a hardcore raider).
I would also love for the damage meter to be able to break down %s ot damage from different abilities to allow for some basic theorycrafting... but honestly a basic damage meter is all I need.
The reason I consider this a QoL feature is because there is and will be parsing systems made for Pantheon (since I doubt VR will remove the ability to log) which can act in real time. It's easier to just have this feature included in the game.
I know that the biggest argument against this is that it will turn casual groups into "who's the worst player, who's holding us back" but I really dont think so. Sure you might get the occasional Ahole, but even myself, who identifies as an elitist, doesnt really care what a pug is doing in a random exp group. I will at the very least. Send a tell and try to help the person of it's a class I'm familiar with and they care to improve.
Thanks, that helps a lot actually.
I'm generally predisposed against parsing and meters myself, BUT I think I would be somewhat ok with this if it was *only* available in a raid situation and not in standard group play. Most of the time when I've seen this sort of thing contribute to toxicity in a game, it's been in single-group content. In raid content, I think most players have the general expectation that they should be trying to maximize their contribution (moreso than groups which many approach a bit more casually).
That being said, I'd rate it pretty far down the list in terms of priority, even coming at it from a raid leader perspective. We don't really know how any of the envisioned raid zones and their encounters for Pantheon will work yet, so I reserve the right to change my opinion whenever we get to that in testing :)
Some more opinions on travel and maps, since I know those are contentious issues.
On travel - I'm of the opinion, after having played many, many different games, that fast travel tends to do more harm than good. That's not to say that I'm not realistic about it. You don't want people to have to spend 60% of their play sessions just getting somewhere. But being able to blip between cities or towns in a matter of seconds eventually leads to people not appreciating the game world... to the point where they literally don't know how to get most places. Fast (not instant) travel that you have to unlock by walking there at least once is better, but in the end people still end up taking it for granted. What I would prefer is a system that players don't take for granted - something that encourages players to a) plan ahead a little bit, b) respect and appreciate the size and scale of the world they're playing in, and c) socialize with other players.
That being said, I don't know that EQ-style wizard/druid ports are the right answer either, as much as we have fond memories of those things sometimes. I remember quite clearly the /taxi channel on the Nameless, and how stupidly easy it was to get a port wherever you wanted to go - half the time for free or for "donations".
So this is an area where I feel like the right answer is in the middle somewhere. Or, maybe a combination of things. Maybe some areas, you can get a player port to get to. Other areas, there's an offline travel mechanism (caravans). And in other areas, maybe you can rent a fast horse, but instead of it traveling on a preset path, you have to control and guide it yourself. This is something I hope the team talks a bit more about as we get into Alpha.
On maps - Personally, I don't have the problem with in-game maps all up that some folks seem to have. For me, where I draw the line is when you have a pointer on that map that shows you exactly where you are at all times. Like travel, it comes down to me wanting players to appreciate the size and scale of the world. It's one thing to say "hey, the orc camp is in the northeast part of the zone, past the guard tower and down a little path leading off the road. If you get to the fork in the road you've gone too far". It's another thing to say "the orc camp is at 1462,391 - mouse over your map to see where you need to go". I realize that might seem a little like a moot point since there will almost certainly be websites devoted to maps that someone can open up on their second screen or whatever, but in my mind that's still better than a big red dot that tells you right where you are all the time.
For me, the ideal situation would be where you can buy maps (money sink!) for each zone with varying levels of detail. A basic map might get you a really vague overview of major terrain features, but a more expensive/detailed map might include POIs as well. You could then view the map in-game, but you wouldn't have an indicator of where you were on the map when you did that. So, you would still need to navigate by landmarks, you'd just have the map to help you out: "Ok, let's see... I'm just north of the bridge, so that puts me here... and the village is through the pass to the west... so if I can find the pass I should be able to get to where i need to be." Along with that of course, there would be plenty of stuff that's not on any in-game map as well.
1 - A grouping tool. Not the kind of tool that instantly joins you to a group and transports you to them/the dungeon/area, but just a tool where you can post 'LFG' ads on a more global scale, with the ability to attach notes/descriptions to said group.
2 - A simple map/mapping tool. Not a detailed topographical map, perhaps just one with a zone shape or silohuette on it, that players can place markers on with custom notes. Or, having maps be a purchasable thing, such as from a Cartographer (sub-skill of some profession?).
I'm not sure if it counts but I really like the brotherhood thing in Vanguard. I usually play with a mate who has significantly less time to play than me so it would be a great feature. Been trying to search to find it but I can't see any confirming or denying it will be present.
1. I think some kind of basic map would be nice. It's a pretty basic and realistic thing, pencil and paper.
2. I think a damage meter would be fun, but utlimately would be used to greif people in groups. There is more to grouping than DPS anyway, even for a DPS character.
3. Any help starting groups would be nice. I recall in EQ 1, that it might take 1-2 hours to get a group together. That is just too much time.
4. I played on Project 1999 and hated the fights over raid bosses. It really ruined the game for me. If they can find a way to avoid this in Pantheon, I will be happy.
You're kinda amalgamating 20 conversation posibilities into one with this thread.
I can't think of a QoL feature that hasn't been extensively discussed before. You might want to do a search to get a good idea what the community thinks about them.
In fact several searches. And a LOT of reading. Good luck! hehe
Look for: -
What I'd like to see in Pantheon that EQ at release didnt have :
-Account-shared bank, you had to have a very good friend you could trust to transfer items from your main character to an alt, and that was pretty annoying.
-The LFG tag.
-Multi-group Raid.
-Group and Raid Looting rules.
-Customizable UI. No mods though (dps meter, boss abilities auto-call mod,... NO).
However, things that RUINED MMORPGs and I would HATE to see in Pantheon :
-Auction House : quick drop your items in auction house and instantly go back to farming, that both made levelling quicker and killed player-to-player interactions,
-Fast Travel / Teleport-anywhere city : made levelling quicker and killed player-to-player interactions,
-Maps : made levelling quicker and killed immersion,
-Auto-loot / AOE loot : kills immersion.
...
dorotea said:[...]
2. If I am headed to the mercantile hub in the Butt Cheeks hills is it seriously likely that no one I speak to on the way can tell me that the city (or even town) is roughly 200 units away and it is north not south?
Granted if I am in an area unknown to people in areas I am coming from having no map at all is rational though I would still know the direction I was headed if I could see sun, moon or stars.
This got me thinking of stone markers or sign posts with arrows pointing directions. As a chipped bone rod was to corpses, maybe there can be a "wayfarers divining rod" that will point you in the direction of a stone marker which could be anywhere in the area/zone and hopefuly have worn trails leading away for a bit before becoming faded or in some cases, dangerousnly sinuous but permanent trails.
For the anti-mappers this may provide some intuitive triangulation. Rather than have to head to the stone to find out the way and in doing so possibly doubling back, instead have a sense heading and if you can orient to the stone you can then guess, by intuitive triangulation the rough diection you need to be headed.
I'm usually pretty biased abo uh t a lot of QoL things but auto loot isn't one of them, it make it to where you dont have to contantly have to click on every single monster you defeat, and honestly doesn't really kill immersion, becuase simply kneeling over a target with no blade in hand and get a rat ear doesn't make much sense either, I mean I'm just saying as a reference.
bobwinner said:-Maps : made levelling quicker and killed immersion,
Can you expand on this. Because everywhere I go now I have at minimum a map with me. Most of the time I have a GPS location also.
Before cell phones you had road atlas'es and compasses. It would make sense that at minimum I would have a basic map for where I'm traveling.
A fully intuative UI that can be rearranged and manipulated to each persons tastes. I like all kinds of info up front and in my face w/o having to dig for it; others like absolutely nothing on their screen. No situation where menus are the only method to get to that info (ESO and the Skyrim Fanbois that made the most noise in beta and basically ruined that UI).
I am a fan of faster travel just not so much instant travel. I think the more you explore a zone, the faster the public transit horse ride. Definately support having to walk to a destination once or more to even get on the bus/horse/ship/whale/gryphon to that destination but the more you farm, craft, explore, do quests, utilize perception, and camp in that given zone the faster your ride can go through it when you need to use it. Want to go fast? Spend 50 hours in a zone, want to go 1% faster than that? Spend another 20 hours in the zone. Can always throw an upper limit speed cap on the public transit methods. In any other game I would rephrase it as the more achievements you accrue within a zone; the faster the horse ride can be through the zone.
I had my paper maps back in the day, we have 3rd party websites with maps now, and many games have fog of war type maps in them now. Maps are a QoL function but they can certainly be intigrated in unique ways into the game that enables notes to be made and player interaction w/i each zone. I hate to be pro for a "last millenium" system, an incredibly obsolete system, but I do like my /Loc commands. I am anti / commands in general as there are much better/ more modern ways IMO to interact with your UI, your character, and the game world.
Game tools are QoL: guild management tools need to be robust not generic, to include functional calanders. LFG tools need to be very informative which could include estimated travel time to a group from either your present location or a major hub location. Chat window tools that include clickable links including ones that open a new tab when its a www. or http. Game tools do not have to be strickly about the program you are playing they can include /pizza too.
I am in the slightly pro add-ons camp. Some games out there have been built incredibly simplistically and really should have been refined much more, giving much more info in the UI (if a player should choose). Add-ons fix game deficiencies in "some" cases. I like my inventory management tools, my raid configuaration tools, my crafters helpers tools. Any tool that does not play the game for you but helps you make wiser decisions is perhaps a good tool.
Yeah, loot management systems that allow a GL or RL to set a looting style is QoL as well as choosing Autoloot if solo or in a small partial group.
Basically, QoL to me represents anything that was a PITA that existed for technical limitations reasons but newer games, in general, emulated "because thats just the way it was done before". don't build a 21st century game based off of 20th century technically limited mechanics just because that is the way it was done before. Really, why was there a loading screen at the zone line? Is there still a need for it? Previously, the client side housed a lot of game information. Do we really need much of any of that info on the client side now days or can it be kept on the server side? Access to in game FPS meters is taken for granted but that too a QoL feature, perhaps there can be other built in tools such as internet speed meters with "optimization" tools.
Edit: Elimination of gold spammers/ bot farmers is a QoL feature as well. The quality of my gaming experience drops significantly when they are running rampant.
As far as damage meters creating toxicity, I agree that in the wrong person's hands they can definitely be a frustrating tool. I would argue that a very small part of this community will utilize a damage meter in a negative way. This is probably the same people in the community that will ignore camps, dps race/ks people, and make frequent use of trains.
You aren't going to change these people. They will still toxic at the end of the day, but you're using your fear of toxicity from what I can only assume is from previous games (WoW) to deter you from one of the best tools in the game to create socialization.
To give you an example...
In WoW TBC i was playing a holy pally and my best friend a prot pally. We regularly would pug kara and ZA. We met a boomkin whi was utterly terrible. Maybe the worst damage parsing ive ever seen. After the first 3 boss fights seeing nothing was changing we asked him what he was casting, discovered an initial problem and helped him double his dps (to a respectable level) for the rest of the raid. After the raid we brought him into our personal ventrilo and walked him through the proper roatation and how to maximize his gear and on use abilities. (He was more than eager to learn).
Fast forward to present day, he regularly joins us on new games we try out and side ventures on other games, eq progression servers, hardcore d3, classic wow and rift. He's one of our better friends now. All because his dps sucked and he wanted to learn.
Some people dont even know they are bad until they meet someone better than them. And I really doubt theres anyone that plays thanks game that WANTS to be bad.
I think the fear of toxicity shouldnt stop a potential socialization mechanic from being in the game. (Or else why dont we have instances!!).