I feel like the Progeny system is specifically made for those who like to play only 1 character. There may be a misunderstanding of how the system might work.
Anyone can roll alts anytime if they want multiple characters. Through the progeny system a player will only ever have one character and continue to increase its power.
I think maybe some people are getting hung up on the narrative that it is the original characters offspring. Whether the name gets changed or not is irrelevant.
It is in essence the same character restarting the leveling process with some bonus perks (possibly as another class if you so choose).
Darch said:I've played FFXIV (14) and I have to say that the class system was hands down the most well developed I have ever played in any MMORPG. That game is designed around fast paced combat that keeps people playing because its exciting (especially with the music on boss fights!)
i dont think really solves anything as you can just reroll a new character if you want the experience again, and that being said if they do the progeny system i feel like this should be decided like a year after release or so, at least let the players feel the game out before jumping to something as drastic as this
The only difference i see from the OP perspective is keeping same name. I suppose some people are very name specific oriented and i get that. I for one feel once you pick that race/class combo at character select there should be no more changes unless you were unable to pick the name you wanted and the GM’s approve the change.
I am hoping the progeny system is akin to selecting a new race/class based on certain TBD criteria. I would like to see an option for EARNING the right to use progeny bonuses at end game for those that do not wish to start over. But no class changes or race changes on the original character unless they basically re-roll. I dont want to see a max level player just switch classes and not know a single thing about being that class.
Until we know more about the specifics of how they are planning to implement this system i can only speculate as to what will happen.
Kaen said:Darch said:I've played FFXIV (14) and I have to say that the class system was hands down the most well developed I have ever played in any MMORPG. That game is designed around fast paced combat that keeps people playing because its exciting (especially with the music on boss fights!)
Man, I feel the exact opposite. FFXIV was one of the worst MMORPGs I ever played. Good graphics and fast combat kept me playing for almost three weeks... Never once thought about going back.
Well.. People are not keeping playing FFXIV because it's exciting. It quickly ends up as a very repetitive MMO with repetitive dps cycle, base GCD of 2.5s make people end every boss phase at the same exact skill, and the game population is varying close from half to full depending of patches every 3 months. Content is relevant for 3 months before beeing outdated by the next release, making a whole 5 years of the game completely worthless except the last months of the last expansion, very WoW style.
There are good things in this game, but it's really a mass game for player wanting a few new encounters every 3 months and streamlined content, while a whole expansion is already sold.
Riqq said:i dont think really solves anything as you can just reroll a new character if you want the experience again, and that being said if they do the progeny system i feel like this should be decided like a year after release or so, at least let the players feel the game out before jumping to something as drastic as this
Agreed, I don't think anyone would be mad if it wasn't ready at launch.
I think if you make the progeny system have some sort of power creep, you're going to end up, down the road, having people/groups/guilds that only want specific progeny levels behind them, which would be damaging to the longevity of the game.
OP's idea ain't really that bad, either. Being able to multiclass after doing progeny would definitely make finding groups a lot easier... you would have to worry about having different sets of gear, though, and for different level brackets as you level again. That's a lot of stuff to be carrying around.
I see this is as a non-issue and can't justify any sort of progeny system. I certainly would NEVER retire a character that I worked so long and hard on to level and equip.
Anyone can roll an alt at any time. In terms of recognition for long-time players, that can be as simple as a title and/or some cosmetic flourish such as epaulettes or sashes.
So far as rewarding the alt, isn't it enough that the new character has access to some amount of higher level gear (stat scaled appropriately for twinkage) and the player has knowledge of geography, quests, tactics for particular zones and encounters?
Any sort of multi-classing is a horrible idea. You're just short-circuiting the levelling process
If you want to just flip a switch and have a level 50 alt, I'm dead against it. Other games have instant high-level options at the character creation screen. We don't need a world full of level 50's who haven't earned their stripes by leveling the class. It can be hard enough to find really skilled players.
If you want alts, put them through the levelling process like every other character. This progeny system or multiclassing could easily backfire and allow people to accelerate alts to high level, causing players to burn out and become bored with the game even faster.
Have you ever met someone in EQ, EQ2 or Vanguard who didn't have an alt and yet complained about boredom in the game?
I definitely won't be disappointed if it's left out at launch or never added.
No mater what happens with Progeny it will be one of the last things developed as it is focused on a second play through of the game and not the first. Once VR has a good handle on what the true life cycle of the first character is they can begin working on tying in later life cycles. Over all the Dungeons and Dragons Online reincarnation buff were very strong for the second and third lives (28 point build vs 32 point vs 36 point) then after that they were pretty minor. Who knows what will be appealing to a 2nd life Pantheon character.
It would be a small departure from the current model but I think it would be interesting to just pick a race at character creation and from level 1-5 you can try out the different classes by switching at a class trainer. At level 5 you have a group quest that needs to be completed to lock in your class selection and allow you to advance past level 5. These bottleneck quests can/should reappear ever 5 or 10 levels.
Later on in life you could decide that your class choice was really not what you wanted and at a certain cost you can return to your home town abandon your class and reduce yourself back to a level 5 adventurer. At that point you can go to the trainer that you want and redo the group quest for that class and become level 6 of that class from then on. You would keep all your gear and your trade skills and any earned reputations but your class would be changed.
There isn't a real big reason to do this other than just wanting to try a different class your race could be and not wanting to give up your character name or delete your character for many reasons. This same concept could also be done for the crafting classes.
Progeny doesn't have to be a super complex system and I disagree that we should wait until an expansion to release it. The goals have been very clearly defined and there is a way to achieve those goals. Pantheon is ripping quite a bit straight out of EQ. It would be wise to take a feature from FF that delivers the desired results of progeny on a silver platter. There would never be newbs on a high level character that didn't earn their stripes. There WOULD be a lot of players contributing to the lower spheres on a regular basis who would have otherwise been stuck in the end game congestion that plagues most MMO's. Multi classing (in the traditional sense where you share abilities from different classes) is unlikely to be the answer. Multi racing seems like it could be. I have some additional thoughts I will be posting later that will hopefully add a little clarity to what I am talking about.
Celandor said:
So far as rewarding the alt, isn't it enough that the new character has access to some amount of higher level gear (stat scaled appropriately for twinkage) and the player has knowledge of geography, quests, tactics for particular zones and encounters?
Any sort of multi-classing is a horrible idea. You're just short-circuiting the levelling process
If you want to just flip a switch and have a level 50 alt, I'm dead against it. Other games have instant high-level options at the character creation screen. We don't need a world full of level 50's who haven't earned their stripes by leveling the class. It can be hard enough to find really skilled players.
I think your misunderstanding what the op is suggesting. In no way is the op implying being able to switch on the fly or short cutting the leveling process. The suggestion is basically having the ability to level multiple classes on one character vs having alts, not your one level is equal to all classes avialable to your race. Pretty much if you started shaman and leveled to 50 then decided to level monk, you would not instantly become a level 50 monk. You will go back to level one and be required to level and complete all the associated quest required of the job. You don't loose access to your shaman, it's still level 50, but while your class is set to monk, you are a monk. No cross of class abilities or stats...
There is the issue that some races will have access to more classes than others but I believe that will be a moot point due to the improbaility of gearing so many classes, limited storage capacity, as well as the massive time investment that it would require to level all the jobs.
Grimix said:Celandor said:
So far as rewarding the alt, isn't it enough that the new character has access to some amount of higher level gear (stat scaled appropriately for twinkage) and the player has knowledge of geography, quests, tactics for particular zones and encounters?
Any sort of multi-classing is a horrible idea. You're just short-circuiting the levelling process
If you want to just flip a switch and have a level 50 alt, I'm dead against it. Other games have instant high-level options at the character creation screen. We don't need a world full of level 50's who haven't earned their stripes by leveling the class. It can be hard enough to find really skilled players.
I think your misunderstanding what the op is suggesting. In no way is the op implying being able to switch on the fly or short cutting the leveling process. The suggestion is basically having the ability to level multiple classes on one character vs having alts, not your one level is equal to all classes avialable to your race. Pretty much if you started shaman and leveled to 50 then decided to level monk, you would not instantly become a level 50 monk. You will go back to level one and be required to level and complete all the associated quest required of the job. You don't loose access to your shaman, it's still level 50, but while your class is set to monk, you are a monk. No cross of class abilities or stats...
There is the issue that some races will have access to more classes than others but I believe that will be a moot point due to the improbaility of gearing so many classes, limited storage capacity, as well as the massive time investment that it would require to level all the jobs.
Thank you. Few people really seem to be misunderstanding this part.
You would get thrown right back into the leveling ecosystem.
To your last point you are absolutely correct. Having multiple high levels jobs became an obsolute nightmare. FFXI also had a "situational" endgame gear type system that honestly required certain classes running around with 30+ pieces of equipment at a time.
Madae said:Kittik said:wait until max level is 100.
Hopefully this never happens.
Why? Why was 50 made the "golden standard" of high end? Whats wrong with 100?
Anyway, my point is that I think we all know that regardless of how "hard" the game is or how "group centric" or how it's tailored around the "community" 50 will be the goal and the larger majority of players will see thats where they need to get and they need to get there as fast as possible.
I'm one of those poeple. Granted it'll take me a long time as I won't/don't get to play that much, and I get side tracked very easily, and I am more of a casual player, and my wife thinks I have an addiction to MMO's, buy my goal will be to get to 50 asap. And 50 isn't going to take people who aren't me very long.
As much as so many of us on this site want to say, "Oh I'll enjoy the journey and I'm not going to rush." I call BS! Everyone on here is going to spend their time trying to get to 50 as effecently or as quickly as possible. And don't say I'm wrong because we all know it's true. And it's true until you realize it's harder than you thought so you stop and "enjoy yourself" and become one of the forums zealots telling everyone to stop worring and enjoy the view, enjoy the journey blah blah blah. But the majority of others will grind though to 50. Some in 3 weeks time from release some in 3 months, but that'll be the main goal the entire way. Getting to end level.
So, yeah, I'm not opposed to a system that keeps the lowever and mid level zones and groups full.
Just to point out, progeny is an optional system that is implemented primarily for those who burn through content very quickly.
It gives incentive to those who would otherwise quit playing when they run out of things to accomplish. It keeps them subscribing by offering them a tiny perk for a long grind. It isn't for everyone.
The reward should be tiny when compared to what is required to attain it.
I feel like, if they waited until a year after launch like some people are recommending it will be to late. You will lose those bleeding edge players that burn through the content in a month or 2. As much as some of us might dislike that play style, they are paying customers...and the longer you wait the more people run out of content. VR understands you can't produce content at the same rate players will play through it so systems like progeny and AAs are added to extend the life of content.
Kittik said:As much as so many of us on this site want to say, "Oh I'll enjoy the journey and I'm not going to rush." I call BS! Everyone on here is going to spend their time trying to get to 50 as effecently or as quickly as possible. And don't say I'm wrong because we all know it's true. And it's true until you realize it's harder than you thought so you stop and "enjoy yourself" and become one of the forums zealots telling everyone to stop worring and enjoy the view, enjoy the journey blah blah blah. But the majority of others will grind though to 50. Some in 3 weeks time from release some in 3 months, but that'll be the main goal the entire way. Getting to end level.
You're being awfully presumptive, Kittik. There are lots of motivations for playing Pantheon. Racing to end-game content is only one possible path. I suspect there are many who have been hard-core raiders and lived our lives in the top guilds on various servers. Been there, got the t-shirt. I'm looking a different experience with Pantheon. I'm 20 years older than when I started playing MMORPGs. I'm not in a rush.
Do you read books or do you prefer movies? Ever read a book slowly just to make it last?
Kittik said:I'm one of those poeple. Granted it'll take me a long time as I won't/don't get to play that much, and I get side tracked very easily, and I am more of a casual player, and my wife thinks I have an addiction to MMO's, buy my goal will be to get to 50 asap. And 50 isn't going to take people who aren't me very long.
I think you have an addiction to beeing max level. :D
Jokes aside, of course everyone will see the max level as a milestone, as we all DID in EQ. But that doesn't mean it will be a short term milestone. One we discover quests for gear, for special spells and skills, for juicy treasures, combined to the tedious leveling it will be.. I bet we are not going to be rushing so fast. Keep in mind gear won't be hand holded like in previous MMO's, so once you're lvl 30 with some crappy lvl 10 gear, how will you progress smoothly ? Side objectives !
Two points recently discussed.
1. Level cap of 50 versus 100. Why would most of us *care*? If it takes two years for the average player to get to 50 (just made the two year number up no need to say it is too long or too short) and be maximum level is that really different from it taking two years to get to 100 and be maximum level? Assuming identical content, merely different level-caps and different speed of gaining levels.
I can see the benfit of using 100 instead of 50 - gives us more frequent rewards (to keep us playing) without increasing the amount of content or the speed of getting through content in any slightest way. To oversimplify - we would gain levels twice as fast and gain new skills half as often after gaining levels.
2. I would much prefer having Progeny in the game at launch - subject to improvements and fleshing out after launch. But everything in the game will be subject to improvements and fleshing out.
Firstly - it is an interesting system that can be hyped in marketing. Probably few of us pledged because of this system but many of us find the possibilities attractive.
Secondly - those that speed-level, and there will be quite a few, will have this option to keep them busy after they get to 50 .....or 100.
Thirdly - knowing what you *can* do at level-cap will be significant to many of us from the very start of the adventure - by which I mean loading the character creation screen as someone said in another thread recently. How Progeny works and what the benefits and limitations will be will affect my choice of race and class on day one even if I do not expect to hit 50 ....or 100 .... for a year.
Grimix said:Jhey said:So Progeny Sysem is pretty great for those who like to roll fresh characer of min-max for certain classes.
I feel a little left out though. I really enjoy sticking with one character and kind of establishing myself.
I propose a system to work along side the Progeny System... let's call it the err... Veteran System.
After hitting level cap you can choose to start back at level 1 with another applicable class. No extra stats or perks from the Progeny System, but you now have the ability to switch classes at your home/safe haven/etc. This way, those of us who want to stick with one character can keep making progress.
Yes, I totally ripped this off from FFXI.
Jhey, I understand what you are proposing but this is simply not a feature that would be in the game. I propose the same idea about a year ago and met the same resistance, it just is what it is.
Yes it's a shame really. With the FFXIV system everyone gets what they want. People can still have multiple toons but also the same one if they want (well, within race restrictions). I am also a big fan of the FFXIV system. No sending stuff between alts, no having to think up names that haven't been taken; no repeated rep grinding for each and every alt; and there was some je ne sais quoi about beginning a new journey on the same character, gave it more depth. As far as I looked at it, anyway.
Oh, and you always knew who you were talking to - no being a dick on on one alt and saving rep damage on main by simply logging. Oh, hey perhaps we're onto something, maybe this is why people want lots of alts.... ;)
Can you spawn multiple characters to stack the progeny bonus? Meaning, can you spawn a progeny of a progeny and keep doing that, or will there be a limit?
I also am not sure I'm a fan. I get pretty attached to my main character and don't want to feel forced to start over to be more effective.
Parascol said:Can you spawn multiple characters to stack the progeny bonus? Meaning, can you spawn a progeny of a progeny and keep doing that, or will there be a limit?
I also am not sure I'm a fan. I get pretty attached to my main character and don't want to feel forced to start over to be more effective.
One if the few official bits of info we have received on progeny is that there will be a limit on the number of times a player can gain perks through the use of the progeny system.
I feel like the Progeny system will fade out in time. Once AA's are introduced people will focus on making thier character stronger that way vs getting a few points in your main stat area and re-leveling. At some point the AA's will be so cumbersome similar to EQ that it'll be impossible not to push forward with those instead of re-rolling to get more points in a main stat. The only way that won't come to pass is if they don't allow main stat to be one of the AA's and force you to re-roll in order to min/max as much as possible.
Keep in mind i'm not a min/maxer. Im an altoholic. I have a very tough time finding, playing, and sticking to one toon. I may get a character to max level, but due to time constraints don't get to raid and it's just easier for me to experience content by creating another class/character and have fun with it that way. As much as I like aa's, it destroys the ability to keep up with the jones's at some point. Even when raiding, unless you have a way to replace a class that's needed, it can become tedious to level up another character so that you have the ability to fill in a spot that may be needed.
Every game ends up having a "Gear Check" system in some form or fashion. When those mechanics come into play the devs are going to really have to think long and hard about how are they going to implement a system that will end up seperating out a portion of the player base and be at a higher tier than the rest that will sepearte the community from exactly what they are trying to prevent by creating the progeny system.
It all depends on how the system is implemented as to how or if it will fade out. The main thing is they should try to implement it early if they want it to be a bedrock system of the game. Remember shrouds in EQ1? Ya, if they had been implemented early on they probably would be still utilized instead of basically another dead system. I feel like they want the progeny and mentor system to go hand in hand. I really am super curious to see how they officially implement these specific systems.