Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Class codependency

    • 627 posts
    August 10, 2018 10:45 AM PDT
    You mean this one Watemper?

    Storm Keeper:
    Epic Skill. Passive Ability. Your communion with the forces of nature is now absolute, allowing you to maintain your Storm Warden bonuses at all times, even indoors.

    It might be boring :) but the buff it self seem very steong, we don't know the % bonus to damage and heal yet. My guess is thats it is atleast 10% bonus maybe even up to 20% if we are lucky.

    Also VR did not add the epic category for all the classes reveals. Monk has no epic or passive abilities shown.
    • VR Staff
    • 176 posts
    August 10, 2018 10:45 AM PDT

    This is a great discussion and a great opportunity for me to re-emphasize the following:

    Remember, these Class reveals are not meant to show the complete ability arsenal for each Class. There are many more abilities and ability evolutions for your Class that you will be able to discover throughout Terminus that are not listed in the reveals.

    So with that said, just because you've seen one side of the Summoner/Enchanter synergy in Summon Behemoth and Dire Charm, doesn't mean you've seen all of it ;)

    • 429 posts
    August 10, 2018 10:50 AM PDT

    @zoltar , I do not think anyone is questioning  VR's ability  . Nor do I personally believe the controversary is about epic so much as about true Synergy .

    Synergy is the equal parts of two becomming one to produce a effect that is greater then the individual .

    Basically both give both get . in fact entire group benefits .

    Behemoth imho does not do it nor provide the synergy . 

    Now if they were to add a line to our Mana Boomerang effect (summoners) that stated if a Enchanter were in group and had Whisper casted on group all would in effect gain X portion of mana back from our mana Boomerang spell . see thats synergy we both give ... we both gain ... both equals ...

     


    This post was edited by Shea at August 10, 2018 11:19 AM PDT
    • 627 posts
    August 10, 2018 10:52 AM PDT
    Awesome! @Joppa here to save the day.. Again!! :)

    Can't wait to see the bigger picture down the line!
    • 696 posts
    August 10, 2018 10:56 AM PDT

    @Bambam

    Yea, rogue doesn't have one either.

    The description sounds cool with the druid epic ability, but in the end it's just a passive buff. That's it. Although, seeing how the new reveals, with enchanter having a ton of epic abilities, 5 epic spells and 1 epic passive, I assume each class with have something to that same scale.

    • 627 posts
    August 10, 2018 11:01 AM PDT

    @Watemper Ye the epic, passive and the categorized abilities. Damage, healing, utility and so on. Was not shown in the first reveal, it got in on some of the later reveals. Not to say that some of the skills shown for monk, rogue and ranger might be epic skills just not show as epic.


    This post was edited by BamBam at August 10, 2018 11:03 AM PDT
    • 1019 posts
    August 10, 2018 11:01 AM PDT

    Joppa said:

    This is a great discussion and a great opportunity for me to re-emphasize the following:

    Remember, these Class reveals are not meant to show the complete ability arsenal for each Class. There are many more abilities and ability evolutions for your Class that you will be able to discover throughout Terminus that are not listed in the reveals.

    So with that said, just because you've seen one side of the Summoner/Enchanter synergy in Summon Behemoth and Dire Charm, doesn't mean you've seen all of it ;)

    Dang!!  You mean the Summoner has even more abilities.  They already have, like, 40 more abilities listed than the Ranger.  LOL....

    • 627 posts
    August 10, 2018 11:07 AM PDT

    @Kittik Casters tend to have more Spells than the psychical dps classes, who increase a lot of their damage from the weapons they equip, witch is not the case for the casters. (as far as i know).

    But the ranger got a lot more skills and abilities hidden too, so its a win win ;)


    This post was edited by BamBam at August 10, 2018 11:07 AM PDT
    • 313 posts
    August 10, 2018 11:56 AM PDT

    Shea said:

    @zoltar , I do not think anyone is questioning  VR's ability  . Nor do I personally believe the controversary is about epic so much as about true Synergy .

    Synergy is the equal parts of two becomming one to produce a effect that is greater then the individual .

    Basically both give both get . in fact entire group benefits .

    Behemoth imho does not do it nor provide the synergy . 

    Now if they were to add a line to our Mana Boomerang effect (summoners) that stated if a Enchanter were in group and had Whisper casted on group all would in effect gain X portion of mana back from our mana Boomerang spell . see thats synergy we both give ... we both gain ... both equals ...

    See what Joppa said.  But even if things were only as they are now based on the reveals, I look at it like an alley-oop dunk.  The enchanter might be the one that scores the points, but the summoner was just as important.  Think of it like the shaman spell that buffs your ally's critical strike or attack speed.  When you cast it on the wizard or rogue, it doesn't benefit you directly.  But the group benefits.  The DPS does more damage, but it's because of what you did to support them.  Or the rogue being able to let down a rope to his group.  It doesn't help him out at all.  But it helps the group.  

    I can see how some people might not care for being the supporting cast, but these things make the game more interesting overall.   


    This post was edited by zoltar at August 10, 2018 11:57 AM PDT
    • 429 posts
    August 10, 2018 12:30 PM PDT

    I've played all healers and casters in almost every game i've played . the more utility or support the better (personal preference ). I agree they make the game far more interesting .. but that was not the issue .

    I have full confidence in the VR team . Does not mean I agree with every single spell or thing thats put into game :) 

    Always room for improvement or change , to include myself :P ...

    As for supporting roles .. 100% my thing 

    I fully support PROTF even if nothing is changed . its the vision . and the vision has many paths :)

     

    • 1247 posts
    August 10, 2018 5:49 PM PDT

    Joppa said:

    This is a great discussion and a great opportunity for me to re-emphasize the following:

    Remember, these Class reveals are not meant to show the complete ability arsenal for each Class. There are many more abilities and ability evolutions for your Class that you will be able to discover throughout Terminus that are not listed in the reveals.

    So with that said, just because you've seen one side of the Summoner/Enchanter synergy in Summon Behemoth and Dire Charm, doesn't mean you've seen all of it ;)

    I really love the cooperation between Summoner and Chanter. I was particularly impressed with the Summoner's epic ability to summon the behemoth for the Enchanter. Group support and community will be important to Pantheon, so I am thrilled with this unique ability. Awesome ability and great development! Plus the Summoner does not just get a pet, but also a pet that can heal its pet. And damage spells and lots of utility (including the behemoth). I wouldn't want the Summoner to be too powerful :) Very, very well done Joppa!


    This post was edited by Syrif at August 10, 2018 5:50 PM PDT
    • 29 posts
    August 10, 2018 11:42 PM PDT

    In the Summoner forum about this very same topic (Summoner Class Specific Bonus is the title) I posted a list of every Summoner class-codependant spell combo. I'll list two (of ten) here.

    Wall of Blood - A special wall that can only be summoned by the concent of a Dire Lord (who must sacrifice a percentage of HP). Whenever a Dire Lord drains the life of an enemy, the Dire Lord also drains life from the wall if not at full health after the initial drain happens. If additional Dire Lords are present, they can all sacrifice a percentage of HP.

    Summon Obelisk - A towering rock that a Shaman can attune to that will repeatedly cast a spell of the Shaman's choice when the Shaman wants it. The Obelisk has its own hp and mana pool and can be buffed. The Shaman can give his/herself a permanent debuff in exchange for allowing the Obelisk to cast additional spells.

    The purpose of these spells is to have fun (and to make your class wanted in groups). What Dire Lord wouldn't want a wall of blood? An obelisk that frees the Shaman from needing to cast the same spell over and over again was definately needed in EQ1. Summoner is a better class for these types of spells due to how they can manifest objects into being instead of simple buffs that mostly give passive benefits.

    In real life we call a plumber to deal with our toilet, sink, and shower problems. We can learn how to do these things and we can call some random Joe with a little experience in it, but don't tell your dog that some average Shaman is going to make a friggen obelisk in record time just for convenience sake. Summoners CAN make obelisks in record time, but they have no interest in "programming" them (well, maybe). This is codependancy. The Summoner is skilled at creating the object and the Shaman is skilled at using the object, just like Summon Behemoth is with the Enchanter. Enchanters can't summon monsters, but Summoners surely can!

    A Dire Lord has no incentive what-so-ever to make walls, but since the Summoner can...why not fill it with blood? I believe that Druids can have the best codependency with Summoners since they are the two sides of nature (organic and inorganic). Minerals are important for the health of organisms ya know? Diseases come to unhealthy plants and animals if they're not available. Just ask anyone planting on soil that's mostly volcanic ash.

    We have to step back and understand that it's much more pleasant to give and expect nothing in return. It may make no sense to the brain, but maybe happiness doesn't make sense to it either! Giving a huge damage shield buff to a low level group in EQ1 was like giving them a powerful narcotic. On the receiving end I could tell that whenever a Magician or Druid would give a DS to my group, the group would die out of exhilaration. I don't recall being wrong. Being given something you never thought you needed is the best feeling.

    Many games create skills that do give things to other players, but they are weaker due to balancing (and typically boring)...since the player also receives the same amount that they give. If the player didn't receive anything then people would be so much more willing to give back. The problem with Enchanter clarity/haste and all of Shaman's buffs in EQ1 was not the power of the buffs...it was that many other classes had nothing as interesting to give, and those buffs gave the users far more money than even teleports. Codependant summons would have helped the Magician not become a simple mod rod dispenser. There was just nothing to summon that would have been useful to a Wizard alone or a Druid alone...they ended up summoning focus gear, but that was more of a sacrifice and any caster could have used them, including the Magician!

    Codependent skills also have unique effects. Here's another one:

    Summon Wind Arrows - Ranger-only arrows that ignore line of sight and distance, but do little damage. The Ranger's vision changes to that of the mob it hits as the mob travels towards the Ranger. The Ranger can find a target when scouting, keep it targeted until back at the group, and then fire the arrow.

    By EQ1's standard they would never summon anything like this...they would just summon better arrows. It's nice and all, but a Ranger deserves a unique type of arrow to make their job way more interesting. To the other classes, the Ranger would look like a weirdo shooting arrows at a brick wall, and the Summoner doesn't get anything back by summoning them...but the Ranger does, and it does do one other thing...incite more conversation in chat. It gives a Ranger the opportunity to describe their firing of the arrow in their own way, and everyone benefits from that. The Ranger no longer has to go around the wall to shoot, preventing the Ranger from getting aggro while too close to the mob.