Keno Monster said:disposalist said:Keno Monster said:SilkyWhip said:Maybe something simple and low key like a small cup or plate at the corner of your character sheet. I think the streamers were all carrying plenty of rations so that didn't get shown to my knowledge.
We are going so far away from the MUD it makes me sad.
Lol even Evequest was a long way from mainframe Multi User Dungeons.
There is a whole debate about UI symbology versus text messaging.
Something like a hunger status is perhaps important enough that it needs more than a text message that could be missed.
An adventurer *would* constantly know that they are hungry/starving, so they would either need a nagging repeated annoying "you are hungry" message or a single icon somewhere.
Laughing at a completely valid point and then contradicting Brad's own description of EQ as a 3d mud doesn't seem like a great way to start a post.
Can you point me at Brad simply describing Everquest as "a 3D MUD"? I know Brad took much of the inspiration from MUDs, but since we were actually responding to comments about the graphical UI and MUDs didn't have one, I'll happily stick to my comment that Everquest was a long way from mainframe Multi User Dungeons.
I don't mean to be combative, sorry if I caused offense. I just find it a little odd to hanker after MUDs when talking about GUIs...
Personally, I like the text info you get in EQ and similar, but I think it needs to be in *addition* to graphical and audio cues and isn't always enough for important, status indication.
dorotea said:On the point about how we don't want Pantheon dumbed down - of course we don't.
But let us suppose there are 10-15 design decisions where things can be easier or harder. Disposalist's post in a different thread recently gave a good summary of many of them.
If all 15 go for the easy approach, to avoid tedium, we may have WoW or Rift or EQ2 or ..... Bad, bad, bad.
If, let us say, 7-12 of them go for the slower and more difficult approach we have a very different feeling game with what most of us will call an old-school approach.
If all 15 take the most difficult and challenging approach do we have the same old-school approach or do we have a torturous tedius trek of travail?
I guess my point is that we shouldn't be quick to judge an issue like food by saying "eek game dumbed down" in a vacuum. We need to look at the gestalt of all the design decisions and judge accordingly. If 14 of 15 issues go "challenging" most of us may say "enough - enough" even if just looking at the 15th issue on its own we might feel otherwise.
Of course we cannot do this since we don't *know* most of the decisions yet and won't until at least alpha and maybe beta and even then subject to change as a result of testing and feedback.
So on each issue we necessarily judge it on its own and tend to ask for challenge and difficulty - that's fine as long as VR does the gestalt judging.
I'd go further and suggest that there pretty much are *no* bad ideas, it's just the degree to which you implement them that makes them 'good' or 'bad'. 'challenging' or 'tedious'.
As for food and drink, maybe some would say anything short of just getting a subtle "you are hungry" message and then having to remember to click on the food and click on your head in the paperdoll UI to eat is 'dumbing it down'. Oh and if you don't eat in time, you die!
Some would say that having to think about food at all is dull and tedious and doesn't belong in an heroic adventure. Why not have a 'you feel bloated' comment and have to find somewhere quiet and type /poop every few hours?
There is, of course, a middle ground that will satisfy both. I would suggest that food and drink is automatically eaten and drunk and that the 'cost' for running out isn't too severe, rather there is a benefit for keeping good supplies of food and drink. Even crafted or looted food and drink that gives good bonuses just like crafted or looted gear.
As always, of course, there are extremes and the answer is in the middle (though, for Pantheon, will tend toward the old-school 'challenging' rather than the modern 'dumbed down').
Ashvaild said: It's not that hard to stock up before you go. Ask your friendly ranger or druid for their foraged goods if you're running low. I'm sure either of them will have a similar skill of foraging from the wild. Summoner can always summon. As far as penalties....if you run out of food you no longer Regen health. Run out of drink....Mana. you won't die...but your effectiveness is definitely diminished. I think that's reasonable.
I agree with you and good thought on one's effectiveness being diminished. Not only may one's health and mana regen stop when there is no food, but one's movement speed ('fatigue from hunger') may also decline. These would be incentives to get sufficient quantities of food and water for the player ;)
Just hope food and drink are inexpensive items like in EQ and you can stack them unlimited to take up less bag space. If not maybe1 ration will last you longer. So many ways this could go. A good balance of realism and non-realism would be nice. Example: 3 rations per 10 hours of play for you savages with nothing else to do, but play games that long.
disposalist said:
Can you point me at Brad simply describing Everquest as "a 3D MUD"? I know Brad took much of the inspiration from MUDs, but since we were actually responding to comments about the graphical UI and MUDs didn't have one, I'll happily stick to my comment that Everquest was a long way from mainframe Multi User Dungeons.
I don't mean to be combative, sorry if I caused offense. I just find it a little odd to hanker after MUDs when talking about GUIs...
Personally, I like the text info you get in EQ and similar, but I think it needs to be in *addition* to graphical and audio cues and isn't always enough for important, status indication.
"When John Smedley came across the WarWizard single player RPGs Steve Clover and I had written in the early 90s, he hired us on to create a 3D graphical MUD. This was an incredible opportunity, because I could combine graphical single player RPGs with online text MUDs! To me, combining the two was just an amazing opportunity and I quit my business programming day job right away, as did Steve, and we both joined Sony and began work on the game that would become EverQuest."
https://www.mmorpg.com/everquest/interviews/22nd-expansion-interview-with-brad-mcquaid-1000010372
"Going back to online text games again, there were MUDs and MUSHes. MUDs were more game-centric while a MUSH was more about a sandbox. We were fans of MUDs that were focused first on great gameplay and so that's how we approached EQ."
https://www.mmorpg.com/everquest/interviews/building-eq-the-brad-mcquaid-interview-1000005971
"We knew that a good text MUD was very compelling - players would play all day and all night. But those were primarily kids in college. If we took similar mechanics and combined them with a 3D virtual world, would it be commercially viable? Were there only relatively few people (us and the college kids) who wanted a game like EQ? Or was that 'addictive' quality something that millions would enjoy? That was the big risk and our ambition was to be correct in our assumption: that a 3D graphical MUD could be a commercial success as well."
""Even though it was text based and free to play, I saw there the commercial potential for these games when coupled with graphics. I'd been working on single player computer RPGs for several years, and when the opportunity to combine them with MUDs came up, I jumped at the chance and began work on EverQuest.""
https://www.engadget.com/2011/04/19/the-game-archaeologist-plays-with-muds-the-games/
"with EverQuest we took what we knew made text MUDs so compelling and immersive and then translated that the best we could into a 3d world."
"So, when Smed called me on a Saturday afternoon in February 1996, he offered us a job to work on what was pretty much a graphical online Multi-User Dungeon (MUD)."
http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/02/13/the-inside-story-of-how-a-major-mmo-went-wrong
There will be enough icons to keep an eye out for.
I like the descriptive text messages, each time escalating in its gravity.
Zorkon said:I would also prefer text based spam messages for two reasons.They can be more descriptive
You're stomach rumbles.
You're stomach aches
You feel weak.
You feel faint.
The text should not only show up when you log on or zone.
Perhaps a final one should be; "You feel lightheaded and are in no shape to fight, you must eat!"
(Perhaps your incombat run/cast speed would so slow that you fail even against the weakest mob? That way, it's not only affecting starving fighters, but also gatherers and crafters that meet the occasional bunny/wild deer.)
Perhaps in the range of a "Fizzle" message/emote where you fail to use offensive combat arts/spells?
You're not dieing from it, but you can't continue properly either. So food/drink has effectively become your priority now. You can still do things out of combat, but that would be just to get you to your refreshments and it would prevent the scenario of you dieing on your way to the steakhouse.
I'm ok with having a detrimental effect on my stats as a whole, perhaps slower incombat movementspeed/casting speed?
No need to interact with your food/drinks from within your bags. Just equip it into your character window. And have it autoconsume from there.
I'd even be fine by a somehow flashing or blurry side of the screen, as Food and drink are supposed to be a primal need you have to fill either you feel really dizzy. But I guess it's a bit too much for the eye's comfort, and I'm fine with whatever solution, as long as you don't run starving withouth any evident notice.
Bronsun said:Just hope food and drink are inexpensive items like in EQ and you can stack them unlimited to take up less bag space. If not maybe1 ration will last you longer. So many ways this could go. A good balance of realism and non-realism would be nice. Example: 3 rations per 10 hours of play for you savages with nothing else to do, but play games that long.
This. I am sick and tired of games forcing me to have to think about 'game food' every 10 minutes and actually manage it every 20 minutes. In Everquest it was something you checked when you logged in, you filled an entire or half bag full of food/water, then you did your thing for 6-12 hours. All the latest games seem to require me to stop every 3-10 kills and scrounge for food/drink. I micro manage my food every day in real life. It sucks. Micros, macros, cheat days, IF, blah.
Can we focus on group play, dungeons, loot, and just keep food/drink in the background. I would love to see stat food return, meaningful food, etc. I don't want to have to click something or make sure I have an icon up for "food bonuses" or just "Fed". A simple message will work as it did for the 15+ years I've played EQ in various forms.
Lastly, in classic EQ food/drink stacked to 20. The best feature I ever saw was once I left P99 to Agnarr and it was 1000. Food stacks are already a bit unrealistic, so would it be so awful to be able to stack 1k in food/drink. Fire and forget? Or is that too much for most?
Rogue said:Lastly, in classic EQ food/drink stacked to 20. The best feature I ever saw was once I left P99 to Agnarr and it was 1000. Food stacks are already a bit unrealistic, so would it be so awful to be able to stack 1k in food/drink. Fire and forget? Or is that too much for most?
I'm down for large stacks. Maybe not 1000, but still effected by weight. Like like veggies weight .01lb but hearty meals .1. So 200 porkchops and 200 bottles of milk weights 40 pounds. Keeps Monks on a vegan diet!
Rogue said:Lastly, in classic EQ food/drink stacked to 20. The best feature I ever saw was once I left P99 to Agnarr and it was 1000. Food stacks are already a bit unrealistic, so would it be so awful to be able to stack 1k in food/drink. Fire and forget? Or is that too much for most?
It would depend on several factors here; is there food decay/durability? is there a foodbuff and how long does it last? If one consumption lasts for 12 hours, I don't see the point of having 100. If you have a batch of 20 of those, you're set for 240 real life hours without having to go back for food. That is sufficient enough no?
With food decaying or consumed each real life hour, you can still be good with a batch of 20. It will still allow you to play 20 hours straight without having to think about food or drinks. If you play 10 hours a day (which is intens for most players) you still only have to check for new supplies every other day. If you play less then 10 hours/day you obviously have even longer before you have to think about new supplies.
That for me, doesn't sound like too much of a drain.
Rogue said:Lastly, in classic EQ food/drink stacked to 20. The best feature I ever saw was once I left P99 to Agnarr and it was 1000. Food stacks are already a bit unrealistic, so would it be so awful to be able to stack 1k in food/drink. Fire and forget? Or is that too much for most?
No point in having food and drink in the first place if we can stack so much. /shrug
If food and drink is just regularly and automaticaly consuming 1 food items and 1 water item stacked in my inventory to not having a debuff penalty, then I think it is pointless and just a way to permanently occupy 2 inventory slots for nearly nothing.
If there is some real gameplay associated with food and drink, then yes. If we can choose / craft / buy different types of food / water that gives buffs/debuffs that are strategically useful (or just fun), then yes. If some type of food / water can impact the acclimatation system, then yes.
Bronsun said:Love the idea of having hunger back in an MMO and how it affects regen.
Question. Would anyone else like to see a periodic icon appear over your own head letting you know you need drink or food along with the chat message or don't bother?
yes and i would like icons for when i need to use abilities too, and when im about to take damage, and when i get messages, basically i want something always popping up above my head, because i shouldnt have to pay attention or read anything i mean come on this is 2018, i should just have to log in and then let the game do everything for me.
Riqq said:Bronsun said:Love the idea of having hunger back in an MMO and how it affects regen.
Question. Would anyone else like to see a periodic icon appear over your own head letting you know you need drink or food along with the chat message or don't bother?
yes and i would like icons for when i need to use abilities too, and when im about to take damage, and when i get messages, basically i want something always popping up above my head, because i shouldnt have to pay attention or read anything i mean come on this is 2018, i should just have to log in and then let the game do everything for me.
I don't think such an agrrssive answer bringing no arguments is welcome here. I am not fond of icons for everything, but as is health and exhaustion, thirst and hunger are primary needs a character shoud be aware of. Choosing abilities is a decision, beeing starved is a a dire information.
Just some thoughts...I'm hoping for negative effects for not having food or drink, how the game tells me that my character is hungry or thirsty should be nagging. More importantly to me is having a wide variety stat food and drink made by chefs and brewers, along with some uniquely foraged items to munch on and or sip. Summoners conjuring up some items to eat and guzzle should be level based and perhaps have learned components to spells to improve items, thus giving them stats. To avoid having to have stacks and stacks of said items filling up your packs, items should having a fairly long duration time is the way to go.
Soaren
Humble Ranger
Khendall said:If food and drink is just regularly and automaticaly consuming 1 food items and 1 water item stacked in my inventory to not having a debuff penalty, then I think it is pointless and just a way to permanently occupy 2 inventory slots for nearly nothing.
If there is some real gameplay associated with food and drink, then yes. If we can choose / craft / buy different types of food / water that gives buffs/debuffs that are strategically useful (or just fun), then yes. If some type of food / water can impact the acclimatation system, then yes.
In EQ and what they are proposing in Pantheon are the same. No food or water means slower regen to health ( food ) and mana ( water ) so that is pretty much a debuff. It comes down to how real the dev's want it. Passing out or dying from lack of food or water is probably too real, but losing some regen is a compromise to that extreme. Some part of me would love to see players passout because they forgot they ran out of food and forgot to eat for a day. :D
As you skill up in meditating or resting the regeneration speed increased over time so your down time is less the higher the levels. Having two less slots is something I can deal with, but I can see where you were going. You need something to justify the loss of space which I think they have.
I personally preferred EQ's approach to food and drink. They didn't have too many types as I recall. Rations and Iron Rations. So unlike crafting in WoW you didn't have to think about better recipes. No need for things like Murloc Groin Cakes or Shoveltusk horn pâté. Wait, EQ did have cooking, right? I just never used it.
You got it Bronsun, the idea of using 2 inventory spaces not to get penalties is not something very exciting to me, I'd prefer adding gameplay possibilities to make the game richer. EQ2 had some interesting things too when talking about food and drink, and if fishing is introduced in Pantheon, I hope we won't have to eat fishes like Gollum eh eh eh :).
As i disagree with anything telling me what to do when im soley responsible for doing it in the first place, i am all about having heavy negative effects for the hunger status - lower stats - no regen - interrupted casting and the works, i do think this should get worse the longer you go without food, and maybe even making more extreme like the longer you go without the more you are going to need to eat to get back to 100% effectiveness, and also i hope that certain foods do provide buffs which im sure is going to happen but just had to say it anyways.