Bronsun said:Love the idea of having hunger back in an MMO and how it affects regen.
Question. Would anyone else like to see a periodic icon appear over your own head letting you know you need drink or food along with the chat message or don't bother?
Let me put food and drink in my bags and let that consumption be automatic. I dont need constant pop-ups or icons telling me that my character needs to eat or drink.
Vandraad said:Bronsun said:Love the idea of having hunger back in an MMO and how it affects regen.
Question. Would anyone else like to see a periodic icon appear over your own head letting you know you need drink or food along with the chat message or don't bother?
Let me put food and drink in my bags and let that consumption be automatic. I dont need constant pop-ups or icons telling me that my character needs to eat or drink.
agreed, and the consumption rate needs to be correct.
I recall when I first started EQ, I was essentially spending all my earned cash on food, seemed like I was going through entire stacks in a single session.
Should each races have different basal metabolic rates? I could see Ogre's needing to pack more food/drink to keep them fueled up. Also, what on earth are Gnomes going to eat... do they even have digestive systems? O_o
Bronsun said:Love the idea of having hunger back in an MMO and how it affects regen.
Question. Would anyone else like to see a periodic icon appear over your own head letting you know you need drink or food along with the chat message or don't bother?
Nooooooo. I already hate the use of so many icons telling people what's what. What happened to emotes? A nice little chat message "your tummy rumbles" should suffice. "The last thing we need" is another icon.
Spluffen said:Well in eq when you run out of food and/or drink, the chat will spam inform you. I'd much rather that was just an icon that appeared somewhere.
I once fell asleep after having zoned from oasis to NRO and woke up and I WAS PARALYZED. HALP! I petitioned and Uini showed up and summoned me some food and water. I had no idea.
Uini also rescued me after a day of swimming around OOT when I went LD on the boat, and THREE DAYS stuck in the mountain wall in SRO. No joke, I spent 12 hours a day for 3 days waiting, logged in, stuck in a rock. "She" also did the last name ceremony with my gang.
Keno Monster said:SilkyWhip said:Maybe something simple and low key like a small cup or plate at the corner of your character sheet. I think the streamers were all carrying plenty of rations so that didn't get shown to my knowledge.
We are going so far away from the MUD it makes me sad.
Lol even Evequest was a long way from mainframe Multi User Dungeons.
There is a whole debate about UI symbology versus text messaging.
Something like a hunger status is perhaps important enough that it needs more than a text message that could be missed.
An adventurer *would* constantly know that they are hungry/starving, so they would either need a nagging repeated annoying "you are hungry" message or a single icon somewhere.
Fulton said:Vandraad said:Bronsun said:Love the idea of having hunger back in an MMO and how it affects regen.
Question. Would anyone else like to see a periodic icon appear over your own head letting you know you need drink or food along with the chat message or don't bother?
Let me put food and drink in my bags and let that consumption be automatic. I dont need constant pop-ups or icons telling me that my character needs to eat or drink.
agreed, and the consumption rate needs to be correct.
I recall when I first started EQ, I was essentially spending all my earned cash on food, seemed like I was going through entire stacks in a single session.
agreed, I did the same with muffins and milk. but at lower levels thatw as the cheapest food available. However it did have me looking at other slightly more expensive foods like rations- that i discovered lasted longer although cost a bit more. The lasting effect of rations countered the cost. Then I learned the progression on up to iron rations and then to stat food. IN the middle I could summon bread and water- but I found casting a bunch to love off of before I went adventuring tooksome time, but I always enjoyed being asked to summon food and drink for others and didn't mind the time it took to get them a nice batch.
Vandraad said:Let me put food and drink in my bags and let that consumption be automatic. I dont need constant pop-ups or icons telling me that my character needs to eat or drink.
Agreed. Current food/drink slots would be great, like EQ2 (iirc).
However, one other point on food and drink; If the intent is that players produce all the food? You actually have to make it reasonably easy for players to make thousands of food per day.
And I don't mean one player, I mean the entire server. If the casual player requires one food per hour, and plays one hour per day, and there are 1000 players on a server, then potentially the players need to produce somewhere between 1000 and 24000 food per day. And then drink, per day.
The reason I bring this up is because a similar title in the genre, project gorgon, also has food and drink. Yet, making can be... quite tedious. It's not terribly difficult, it just requires some fidelity and elegance in the fine tuning details. For example; If the player can take an entire killed animal and butcher the meat out of it, you would expect that would produce more than one meal. I mean really, an entire ox or sheep or elk produces potentially dozens of meals for many people, especially when mixed with pasta, rice, bread, spices and so on. It's not "one animal, one meal".
The solution here is easy: Reduce the value, and increase the amount produced. If something costs 100 currency in NPC fuel to produce, create 10 food items worth 10 (or less) currency. Not one food item worth 100 (or less) currency. And then scale as appropriate for the needs of the server. Otherwise, back to muffins and milk. :)
I remember the old days of computer roleplaying games. Going to the bottom level, killing the Balrog, and returning to the top to win the game only to starve to death a few steps from the dungeon exit.
Many different games where half the game seemed to be micromanaging food and different types of arrows/bolts rather than exploring or killing.
No thanks.
Food as something that gives minor buffs - OK. Food as something that you need to constantly take lest you starve to death or suffer significant debuffs. No.
vjek said:Vandraad said:Let me put food and drink in my bags and let that consumption be automatic. I dont need constant pop-ups or icons telling me that my character needs to eat or drink.
Agreed. Current food/drink slots would be great, like EQ2 (iirc).
However, one other point on food and drink; If the intent is that players produce all the food? You actually have to make it reasonably easy for players to make thousands of food per day.
And I don't mean one player, I mean the entire server. If the casual player requires one food per hour, and plays one hour per day, and there are 1000 players on a server, then potentially the players need to produce somewhere between 1000 and 24000 food per day. And then drink, per day.
The reason I bring this up is because a similar title in the genre, project gorgon, also has food and drink. Yet, making can be... quite tedious. It's not terribly difficult, it just requires some fidelity and elegance in the fine tuning details. For example; If the player can take an entire killed animal and butcher the meat out of it, you would expect that would produce more than one meal. I mean really, an entire ox or sheep or elk produces potentially dozens of meals for many people, especially when mixed with pasta, rice, bread, spices and so on. It's not "one animal, one meal".
The solution here is easy: Reduce the value, and increase the amount produced. If something costs 100 currency in NPC fuel to produce, create 10 food items worth 10 (or less) currency. Not one food item worth 100 (or less) currency. And then scale as appropriate for the needs of the server. Otherwise, back to muffins and milk. :)
Or you can simply make bettter quality food that last much much longer. 1 food/drink per real hour is a bit excessive but makes sense for very low quality food/drink (think EQ1 rations) or just bread and water. But as we saw with EQ1, you could make a Kobold Steak that was labled 'meal' or make a Bear Steak that was a 'hearty meal' or go for a Spicy Tuna Sunrise Steak which was a 'feast'. Each one lasting much longer (and some having stats) than the previous one.
dorotea said:I remember the old days of computer roleplaying games. Going to the bottom level, killing the Balrog, and returning to the top to win the game only to starve to death a few steps from the dungeon exit.
Many different games where half the game seemed to be micromanaging food and different types of arrows/bolts rather than exploring or killing.
No thanks.
Food as something that gives minor buffs - OK. Food as something that you need to constantly take lest you starve to death or suffer significant debuffs. No.
Why so ? Your example is misfit as it seems like a harsh penalty for something hard or impossible to plan correctly.
I never found food in eq to be a nuisance except for the 10 first level where you struggle in everything and learn the basics. Once you're higher, you usually had stacks of iron rations with water or relied on classes able to summon some if you forget to restock.
A progressive reduction of ressources and health regen seems to me like a soft and acceptable punition for starving.
Hell if you're really out in the wild, ask an other player, #communitymatters .
>Why so ? Your example is misfit as it seems like a harsh penalty for something hard or impossible to plan correctly.<
Isn't that my point? That any penalty should not be too harsh?
The ultimate penalty is death; the penultimate penalty is being so weakened that you are unable to successfully fight. I don't want either as the result of misjudging how many pounds of spam (the food not the abuse of chat) to caarry into the wilderness.
Yes to the food and drink, including the hunger and thirst, all the way to and including Death (of course your would need to Really neglect it to die from it). It's part of making travel meaningful when you need to be sure you have supplies before you head out.
I would also prefer text based spam messages for two reasons.They can be more descriptive
You're stomach rumbles.
You're stomach aches
You feel weak.
You feel faint.
And also this draws your attention to the chat window. A lot of people miss /tells or other messages from ignoreING the chat window. The more essential it is the more likely it will get checked often and or people will notice it (unless of course it's just junk in the window and not a communication from another player or game mechanic.
Bronsun said:Question. Would anyone else like to see a periodic icon appear over your own head letting you know you need drink or food along with the chat message or don't bother?
Not me. Mindless clicking on food whenever a message pops up. Damage to inventory space from needing to carry food. All around not fun.
disposalist said:Keno Monster said:SilkyWhip said:Maybe something simple and low key like a small cup or plate at the corner of your character sheet. I think the streamers were all carrying plenty of rations so that didn't get shown to my knowledge.
We are going so far away from the MUD it makes me sad.
Lol even Evequest was a long way from mainframe Multi User Dungeons.
There is a whole debate about UI symbology versus text messaging.
Something like a hunger status is perhaps important enough that it needs more than a text message that could be missed.
An adventurer *would* constantly know that they are hungry/starving, so they would either need a nagging repeated annoying "you are hungry" message or a single icon somewhere.
Laughing at a completely valid point and then contradicting Brad's own description of EQ as a 3d mud doesn't seem like a great way to start a post.
MauvaisOeil said:dorotea said:I remember the old days of computer roleplaying games. Going to the bottom level, killing the Balrog, and returning to the top to win the game only to starve to death a few steps from the dungeon exit.
Many different games where half the game seemed to be micromanaging food and different types of arrows/bolts rather than exploring or killing.
No thanks.
Food as something that gives minor buffs - OK. Food as something that you need to constantly take lest you starve to death or suffer significant debuffs. No.
Why so ? Your example is misfit as it seems like a harsh penalty for something hard or impossible to plan correctly.
I never found food in eq to be a nuisance except for the 10 first level where you struggle in everything and learn the basics. Once you're higher, you usually had stacks of iron rations with water or relied on classes able to summon some if you forget to restock.
A progressive reduction of ressources and health regen seems to me like a soft and acceptable punition for starving.
Hell if you're really out in the wild, ask an other player, #communitymatters .
MauvaisOeil, you are completely correct. Community: let's remember that Pantheon is meant to be a challenging game. Food/Water necessity is also meant to be a component of that challenge. We are not satisfied with EQ-Live and WoW-Live because they have been dumbed-down. Also, expansions to Pantheon should not dumb-down the game over time as we saw in EQ and WoW. #communitymatters, #communityreallyreallymatters.
On the point about how we don't want Pantheon dumbed down - of course we don't.
But let us suppose there are 10-15 design decisions where things can be easier or harder. Disposalist's post in a different thread recently gave a good summary of many of them.
If all 15 go for the easy approach, to avoid tedium, we may have WoW or Rift or EQ2 or ..... Bad, bad, bad.
If, let us say, 7-12 of them go for the slower and more difficult approach we have a very different feeling game with what most of us will call an old-school approach.
If all 15 take the most difficult and challenging approach do we have the same old-school approach or do we have a torturous tedius trek of travail?
I guess my point is that we shouldn't be quick to judge an issue like food by saying "eek game dumbed down" in a vacuum. We need to look at the gestalt of all the design decisions and judge accordingly. If 14 of 15 issues go "challenging" most of us may say "enough - enough" even if just looking at the 15th issue on its own we might feel otherwise.
Of course we cannot do this since we don't *know* most of the decisions yet and won't until at least alpha and maybe beta and even then subject to change as a result of testing and feedback.
So on each issue we necessarily judge it on its own and tend to ask for challenge and difficulty - that's fine as long as VR does the gestalt judging.
