Some things that I and a few friends noticed from yesterdays stream that has us a little concerned. Of course these are all just My/Our opinions and are in no way fact, just some observations and concerns.
One was the Leveling pace, If you take out all the Deaths, med time, travel time Etc, the time it took the players to level considering that they didnt kill a huge number of mobs, AND the fact that they died a lot ( which seems to indicate there is no death penalty, at least not yet, And they spawned fully equipped, of cource this could have been done just for the stream for ease ) they leveled pretty darn fast.
Which brings me to point two that we noticed which was lack of death penelty ( Of cource it IS pre alpha and we understand this, So it *might* be that is isnt in game yet, But if it is, then it doesnt seem to do much)
Another concern was Mana regen, Personally i thought it wasnt that bad, but 3 or 4 of my guild mates thought the out of combat mana regen especially was Way to fast, Im sure this will get adjusted over the course of development.
Several of my guild mates didnt like the fact that the streamers spawned fully equipped and thought it made death trivial, Personally i think they are worrying for nothing, i think this was done for the benefit of the stream to speed things up and not waste valuable time with things like corpse runs, and Xp loss. i could be wrong of course.
Another was a coment about there isnt going to be any LONG named spawn timers Eg: several weeks to a month spawn timer, even a week timer is good. Personally i like long timers on named mobs, it keeps the awesome loot they drop more rare and saught after and stops the market being flooded with these items, keeping them rare.
Are there any things from the lastest stream/streams that have You a little concerned? if we keep them in one place it would make it easyier for the devs to find.
Tiberius said:Several of my guild mates didnt like the fact that the streamers spawned fully equipped and thought it made death trivial, Personally i think they are worrying for nothing, i think this was done for the benefit of the stream to speed things up and not waste valuable time with things like corpse runs, and Xp loss. i could be wrong of course.
I am fairly certain that was done just for this stream, even in other streams, they respawned with nothing.
The only reason to not expedite leveling in testing is if you're testing the leveling speed itself.
I've played in a few rpg betas, and all of them had increased leveling speed up until the last few months of beta.
Hi Teberius, good observations! To address some of them:
- Leveling has been turned up drastically during pre-alpha to accommodate for the limited hours the pre-alpha realms are available. We need people leveling quickly to test different content.
- Similarly the death penalty has been temporarily disabled in this build to allow for more efficient testing. The death penalty and corpse runs will return in a later pre-alpha phase.
- Out of combat mana and health regen is constantly being tweaked. We expect it will continue to be tweaked right through beta.
This is pretty much what i said to my guild mates but they are all doom and gloom guys lol, they are all refusing to pledge ( apart from one ) until Beta. So i said i would post their concerns and i have done that, Still think they are worrying for nothing with their doom and gloom :)
I wouldn't say I have any big concerns...maybe a few things I would like to see improved by launch, but as this is still pre-alpha, that is totally understandable.
Something that I have noticed consistently that does bug me a bit, however, is the strength of the mobs relative to the players. Don't get me wrong, I definitely don't want the game to be easy, and I do want it to encourage grouping...but when one mistake can lead to a caster getting aggroed and literally dying in one to two hits, that seems a little extreme to me. I would personally really like it if a well-geared and skilled player could actually in most cases have a good chance of soloing an enemy of the same level. Now, I certainly don't want dungeon runs, etc. to be easy or to not require thoughtful planning and strategy, which is where I think enemy group size and behavior comes into play. It should still be very challenging to engage a group of mobs without things getting out of hand, and require all party members to know their classes and implement their abilities well. But if a level 20 Orc is always stronger than a level 20 player, that has the effect, in my opinion, of making your character seem kind of lame by comparison, and also makes combat so hard that any little mistake can spell disaster.
I know all things combat-related may change by launch, but this is just something I wanted to throw out there ahead of time for consideration. Again, it's totally just my opinion, not something I think is absolutely "wrong"...but if I had one enduring concern, that would probably be it.
Gyldervane said:I wouldn't say I have any big concerns...maybe a few things I would like to see improved by launch, but as this is still pre-alpha, that is totally understandable.
Something that I have noticed consistently that does bug me a bit, however, is the strength of the mobs relative to the players. Don't get me wrong, I definitely don't want the game to be easy, and I do want it to encourage grouping...but when one mistake can lead to a caster getting aggroed and literally dying in one to two hits, that seems a little extreme to me. I would personally really like it if a well-geared and skilled player could actually in most cases have a good chance of soloing an enemy of the same level. Now, I certainly don't want dungeon runs, etc. to be easy or to not require thoughtful planning and strategy, which is where I think enemy group size and behavior comes into play. It should still be very challenging to engage a group of mobs without things getting out of hand, and require all party members to know their classes and implement their abilities well. But if a level 20 Orc is always stronger than a level 20 player, that has the effect, in my opinion, of making your character seem kind of lame by comparison, and also makes combat so hard that any little mistake can spell disaster.
I know all things combat-related may change by launch, but this is just something I wanted to throw out there ahead of time for consideration. Again, it's totally just my opinion, not something I think is absolutely "wrong"...but if I had one enduring concern, that would probably be it.
If you notice from the stream, the ones dieing in 2 -3 hits were the Squishy finger wigglers which is how it should be ( plus they were sacraficial gnomes ) i dare say a very well geared caster that knows their class well, could solo an even con mob, But if the mob got to close and got into Melee range then no, the finger wigglers are going to get squashed as they are glass cannons, they have huge damage and utility but no Ac/damage mitigation compaired to mail and plate wearing classes.
BenD said:Hi Teberius, good observations! To address some of them:
- Leveling has been turned up drastically during pre-alpha to accommodate for the limited hours the pre-alpha realms are available. We need people leveling quickly to test different content.
- Similarly the death penalty has been temporarily disabled in this build to allow for more efficient testing. The death penalty and corpse runs will return in a later pre-alpha phase.
- Out of combat mana and health regen is constantly being tweaked. We expect it will continue to be tweaked right through beta.
Thank you BenD for that confirmation!
Okay So one of my friends pointed out the fact that the streamers were spawning right outside of black rose and have no need to run all the way back to the dungeon and it worried that this will be a common theme.
Personally i feel that this again was done by the devs to speed up testing and to save time.
I doubt things will be like this in live. One would assume that there would be binding npc's/points in towns, bind spells/gate spells Etc but spawning right outside the dungeon i dont think is the norm. I would think the devs would want us to spawn in town Etc, to make the journy back to your body an adventure in its self, and also to make res spells more meaningfull ( i mean why bother with a rez spell if you can just spawn outside the dungeon and zerg back into the fight ) amongst other things. this is all just my personal opinion of course. would be interesting to see what others think.
Gyldervane said: Something that I have noticed consistently that does bug me a bit, however, is the strength of the mobs relative to the players. Don't get me wrong, I definitely don't want the game to be easy, and I do want it to encourage grouping...but when one mistake can lead to a caster getting aggroed and literally dying in one to two hits, that seems a little extreme to me. I would personally really like it if a well-geared and skilled player could actually in most cases have a good chance of soloing an enemy of the same level.
While VR has said that there will be some things that can be solo'd, you have to remember that one of the main missions of this game is to bring back the 'Your gonna need a group' part of MMO's. In the stream Joppa kept using the term 'Social Contracts'. This is the idea that in order to progress, you need to socialize with others. This is not meant to be a game you can play on your own and solo all the way through. Even if some classes have abilities that allow them to kill some enemies by themselves this will not be the main focus.
VR has said that they know that this means the game will be a niche market for players who want this kind of social game where you can't do it on your own, so if ultimately you are looking for a game you can play through without needing to deal with other people, you're probably not going to enjoy Pantheon.
As for your 'One Mistake' comment... in those streams you were never seeing a situation where they made only 1 mistake. Almost every single pull they did (even the ones they survived) they all made dozens of mistakes. These were not seasoned players who knew what they were doing, so we totally expected them to fumble around. Even the Dev's when they stream are not really all that great at playing. Yeah they are the ones making the game, but, at least the ones we have seen, are still sloppy players (no offense VR devs... don't smite me... maybe you guys are just pretending you aren't great players... ya that must be it).
Once players have a chance to go through the leveling process and learn their class from the ground up by practicing and learning each new ability as they aquire it, you will not see things being so hap hazard as in those streams, and any mistakes will not always be so punishing. I'm not saying things will be a breeze, but a practiced group should be able to succeed without every pull seeming like their getting slaughtered.
Tiberius said:Okay So one of my friends pointed out the fact that the streamers were spawning right outside of black rose and have no need to run all the way back to the dungeon and it worried that this will be a common theme.
Personally i feel that this again was done by the devs to speed up testing and to save time.
I doubt things will be like this in live. One would assume that there would be binding npc's/points in towns, bind spells/gate spells Etc but spawning right outside the dungeon i dont think is the norm. I would think the devs would want us to spawn in town Etc, to make the journy back to your body an adventure in its self, and also to make res spells more meaningfull ( i mean why bother with a rez spell if you can just spawn outside the dungeon and zerg back into the fight ) amongst other things. this is all just my personal opinion of course. would be interesting to see what others think.
Definitely will not be the case upon live.
When you die, you respawn wherever your character has bound. Generally a city.
If they follow original EQ1, only certain casting classes could bind themselves anywhere.
zewtastic said:Tiberius said:Okay So one of my friends pointed out the fact that the streamers were spawning right outside of black rose and have no need to run all the way back to the dungeon and it worried that this will be a common theme.
Personally i feel that this again was done by the devs to speed up testing and to save time.
I doubt things will be like this in live. One would assume that there would be binding npc's/points in towns, bind spells/gate spells Etc but spawning right outside the dungeon i dont think is the norm. I would think the devs would want us to spawn in town Etc, to make the journy back to your body an adventure in its self, and also to make res spells more meaningfull ( i mean why bother with a rez spell if you can just spawn outside the dungeon and zerg back into the fight ) amongst other things. this is all just my personal opinion of course. would be interesting to see what others think.
Definitely will not be the case upon live.
When you die, you respawn wherever your character has bound. Generally a city.
If they follow original EQ1, only certain casting classes could bind themselves anywhere.
Agreed, My thoughts exactly
This is kind of the problem with these early streams, a lot of things viewers see they do not realize are either not fully fleshed out: respawns have been bumped up, XP is high, loot is abundant, player respawn points added and many others - all for convenience of development and testing.
And I love the question in the Cohh stream where somebody chatted that "the fights seemed to be taking along time". Obviously someone familiar with maybe BDO, ArcheAge, ESO (any other Korean MMO, or WoW)? Man I can kill a hundred mobs myself in minutes they must be thinking.
GoofyWarriorGuy said:Gyldervane said: Something that I have noticed consistently that does bug me a bit, however, is the strength of the mobs relative to the players. Don't get me wrong, I definitely don't want the game to be easy, and I do want it to encourage grouping...but when one mistake can lead to a caster getting aggroed and literally dying in one to two hits, that seems a little extreme to me. I would personally really like it if a well-geared and skilled player could actually in most cases have a good chance of soloing an enemy of the same level.
While VR has said that there will be some things that can be solo'd, you have to remember that one of the main missions of this game is to bring back the 'Your gonna need a group' part of MMO's. In the stream Joppa kept using the term 'Social Contracts'. This is the idea that in order to progress, you need to socialize with others. This is not meant to be a game you can play on your own and solo all the way through. Even if some classes have abilities that allow them to kill some enemies by themselves this will not be the main focus.
VR has said that they know that this means the game will be a niche market for players who want this kind of social game where you can't do it on your own, so if ultimately you are looking for a game you can play through without needing to deal with other people, you're probably not going to enjoy Pantheon.
Yeah, I totally understand that, and I'm definitely not looking for combat tuning that allows a player to solo through most content, though I would like to see certain same-level encounters be soloable. As an example, in EQOA, a well-geared player could generally solo a single enemy of the same level, so if, say, they found a named mob of their level roaming in the wilderness, they would stand a reasonable chance of killing it without having to call in reinforcements. But the sheer number/density of mobs in most areas, combined with the downtime required to heal/recharge after each kill made consistent soloing absolutely impossible. I really liked this system, because it made soloing the odd enemy doable (and made your character seem strong in his/her own right) while still making groups a necessity in most all aspects of the game. I don't know if this is what the devs are planning for Pantheon or if they're intentionally tuning combat so that every level 20 enemy will take a full group of level 20 players to kill. I'll still like the game either way, though the EQOA-style system is definitely more my style. Just my personal preference.
The only thing you'll be able to solo is [a large rat] hahaha, but seriously, probably only outside areas and roamers / animals could be soloable. Humanoids, dungeons, and nameds require a few buddies. The reality is that, ALL the classes are so overpowered right now, they have to scale up the content too. It's like Warhammer 40k, everything is just ludicrously OP. This is a game that's a bit more hardcore than others that have hordes fall at your feet like a field of wheat.
BenD said:Hi Teberius, good observations! To address some of them:
- Leveling has been turned up drastically during pre-alpha to accommodate for the limited hours the pre-alpha realms are available. We need people leveling quickly to test different content.
- Similarly the death penalty has been temporarily disabled in this build to allow for more efficient testing. The death penalty and corpse runs will return in a later pre-alpha phase.
- Out of combat mana and health regen is constantly being tweaked. We expect it will continue to be tweaked right through beta.
So glad to see this because I was concerned as well about how fast people have been leveling in all the streams. 1 hour for a full level even with deaths is WAY WAY too fast for Live.
This makes me feel Much better!!
Thank you
I know every question is legitimate is some extent, but please guys, remember this is a pre alpha footage that is meant to test and shape the game. Base mechanics and world building are the point in development and every number can be tweaked during alpha/beta almost effortless.
I get that everyone wants the best game with a good balance, but popping concern about pretty much everything everytime a PA stream is published is worrying too much.
MauvaisOeil said:I know every question is legitimate is some extent, but please guys, remember this is a pre alpha footage that is meant to test and shape the game. Base mechanics and world building are the point in development and every number can be tweaked during alpha/beta almost effortless.
I get that everyone wants the best game with a good balance, but popping concern about pretty much everything everytime a PA stream is published is worrying too much.
+1
BenD said:Hi Teberius, good observations! To address some of them:
- Leveling has been turned up drastically during pre-alpha to accommodate for the limited hours the pre-alpha realms are available. We need people leveling quickly to test different content.
- Similarly the death penalty has been temporarily disabled in this build to allow for more efficient testing. The death penalty and corpse runs will return in a later pre-alpha phase.
- Out of combat mana and health regen is constantly being tweaked. We expect it will continue to be tweaked right through beta.
I guess it would be good to make those kind of big settings clear at the beginning of a stream so people don't get a very bad and wrong idea ;^)
disposalist said:BenD said:Hi Teberius, good observations! To address some of them:
- Leveling has been turned up drastically during pre-alpha to accommodate for the limited hours the pre-alpha realms are available. We need people leveling quickly to test different content.
- Similarly the death penalty has been temporarily disabled in this build to allow for more efficient testing. The death penalty and corpse runs will return in a later pre-alpha phase.
- Out of combat mana and health regen is constantly being tweaked. We expect it will continue to be tweaked right through beta.I guess it would be good to make those kind of big settings clear at the beginning of a stream so people don't get a very bad and wrong idea ;^)
Agreed, it might be a good idea, Not everyone watching the streams are veteran players of past mmo's like a lot of us, My guild mates being a prime example. Many of them have never been in an alpha or Beta or even played an mmorpg So Pantheon will be their first mmorpg, so they truely do not know what to expect, they are pretty much clueless when it comes to this stuff. So a little Written drsclaimer or something i think would be helpful in addressing their fears.