For those that aren't familiar, in EQ, to gain an idea of how tough a monster was and how it might react to you, you could target it and /consider (or press the C key). You would get a two-part and coloured text response in the chat window that would say something like: -
The Orc stares at you threateningly. It looks like you would have the upper hand
The first part is to do with the a social scale, I believe based in how the monster faction is related to you.
+4, ally
+3, warmly
+2, kindly
+1, amiably
0, indifferently
-1, apprehensively
-2, dubiously
-3, threateningly
-4, ready to attack
The second part is to do with relative level of the monster and is a bit more complex as it varied with your level and the monster's relative level, for example at level 20 there are four different blue con messages between 1 and 5 levels below you and at level 40 there are two greens: a special one at 10 below and another for 11+.
What was this for, though? Aradune can probably tell us more on what the intention was, but to me, it always felt like a way of approximately knowing what kind of risk and reward to expect.
A low green generally gave no XP, but if you got a lot of them attacking you could be still be dangerous.
A high green should give XP and might be soloable.
Blues were XP and were soloable if you were good or well equipped or both depending on how high a blue.
White was always dead even and something you *might* be able to solo at low level, but at higher level you really had to be a good player and be a class that could solo well.
Yellow was for duos up to groups.
Mostly red was to be avoided unless it was *just* red and/or you had a good group.
As I say, this was approximate. There were what were known as overcons and undercons. Monsters that seemed more or less challenging than their con (level) should be, usually due to special abilities or resistances. Also, it varied in usefulness as you levelled up. In my experience a group became more and more necessary for any monster giving XP at high level.
So that was EQ. What do we want from Pantheon?
I would like to see more granularity, more mystery, more natural language and more information.
I think the faction part should be based in your knowledge of the species. It's always a bit weird you know so precisely when things will attack or won't or even that you know what faction they belong to. Perhaps there should also be a preception component effecting accuracy of the faction part: -
The Orc looks like a Snow Orc. They are allies, but this one eyes you suspiciously
But with high perception or greater knowledge of Orcs, you might have gotten: -
The Orc is a Stone Orc. It eyes you threateningly
I think there should/could also be a disposition part to alert you of a monster that has a disposition *if* your perception ability is good?
The Orc is a Blood Orc. They hate you. This one looks nervous
The nervous indicator referring to its disposition as a Coward (one that flees early).
I would like to see the relative level component work similarly to EQ but have subtle differences to keep an eye out for where the level range is granular. So, a dark blue might be: -
The Orc appears formidable
The Orc may be quite formidable
The Orc looks formidable
The Orc is formidable
The Orc is definitely formidable
The Orc looks very formidable
The Orc is very formidable
Whereas in EQ it might have "The Orc is formidable" for all 7 levels below you.
I would also like to see a purple above red for 10+ levels above and a grey below green for 10 levels below (or whatever levels are considered ridiculously high or low).
Maybe there should/could also be a 'hint' component if you have good perception or familiarity. Somthing like knowing it has high fire resistance or is poisonous. I'm maybe straying into a beastiary/mastery ability here, but it could be combined...
So we would see: -
The Orc Hunter is a Stone Orc. They hate you. This one looks nervous. It looks very formidable. It smells of smoke.
which means
Name: Orc Hunter
Faction: Stone Orc
Reaction: Hate (attack on sight)
Disposition: Coward
Level: 2 below
It's a waffly and not fully fleshed out idea, but what do you think?...
Interesting, ideas. Listening to the stream last night the current con color system in place is: Green (quite low level to you, won't attack unless you're sitting,) light blue (lower level than you,) blue (just under your level,) white (even con,) yellow (slightly above your level,) orange (above your level,) red (hmm... do you want to even think about it?) So I think they might have enough color variation for the most part. Many apologies to anyone with blue/green color blindness. Those grey rings all mean lower level to you. :P
But I like the idea of a more in-depth wording to the con system based on faction/lore knowledge/perception.
This is quite a timely post as I was considering (no pun inteded) creating a similar thread, though in a slightly different direction. I actually just made a post in another thread so I will just paste my response below:
...while I agree with not showing the level of the mob, I hope VR considers finding a new way to display the "con" of the mob. As it stands, they have just literally taken the EQ con system, and how the player interacts with it, and implemented into Pantheon. I would like to see some innovation here, much the way it was handled in Vanguard -- the "dot" con system essentially provided the same information but packaged it in a sleek, intuitive ui design accessed simply by targeting the mob.
For anyone unfamiliar, this link shows a Vanguard enemy target window in the upper right corner (this image is not my own). The color of the dots gives you an indication of the mobs level relative to yours (same as EQ) and the number of dots gives you an indication of the mobs relative difficulty (much how the EQ system describes the mob, i.e. "what would you like your tombstone to say?"). As you can see, it conveys the same information but in a way unique to Vanguard (and in a more intuitive way IMO).
I'm not suggesting VR instead just use the Vanguard con system but consider finding a way to package this information in a new way and incorporating it into the ui. I think new players unfamiliar with the idea of "coning" a mob will struggle with the current iteration, while packaging the system into the ui will at least encourage new players to ask "how does this work" rather than getting frustrated.
disposalist said:I think the faction part should be based in your knowledge of the species. It's always a bit weird you know so precisely when things will attack or won't or even that you know what faction they belong to. Perhaps there should also be a preception component effecting accuracy of the faction part
I liked everything you proposed and think that this part quoted above is the key to making the /con something you actually need to work at improving over time. Your first encounters should be near blank slates, only very rough approximations are given to you. After more and more interactions, and according to your perception skills, you start to fill in the blanks and eventually you can 'read' any member of that group with near perfect precision.
I do not like being handed too much information, always feeling that we should improve upon things as time progresses.
One thing which might help is consulting local friendly NPCs in the area, asking them about the creatures around them. As you talk, your ability to more accurately /con the Orcs, for example, gets marginally better from the very vage baseline. Think of it as going to your class trainer and putting a few points into a newly aquired skill.
Vandraad said:disposalist said:I think the faction part should be based in your knowledge of the species. It's always a bit weird you know so precisely when things will attack or won't or even that you know what faction they belong to. Perhaps there should also be a preception component effecting accuracy of the faction part
I liked everything you proposed and think that this part quoted above is the key to making the /con something you actually need to work at improving over time. Your first encounters should be near blank slates, only very rough approximations are given to you. After more and more interactions, and according to your perception skills, you start to fill in the blanks and eventually you can 'read' any member of that group with near perfect precision.
I do not like being handed too much information, always feeling that we should improve upon things as time progresses.
One thing which might help is consulting local friendly NPCs in the area, asking them about the creatures around them. As you talk, your ability to more accurately /con the Orcs, for example, gets marginally better from the very vage baseline. Think of it as going to your class trainer and putting a few points into a newly aquired skill.
The asking locals and whatnot gives a nice lore-based way of allowing noobs to be able to con local monsters quite accurately, but as you gain levels and move further out and encounter unusual stuff you will have to work harder. Yeah I like it.
Maybe if you then get to a new town they will give some basic info about new monsters local to them to get you started, but again, you need to fill out the beastiery to be able to /consider them more accurately.
I like the idea of no matter your level always having more to learn and always having to be cautious, so, yeah, even at level 50 with uber-perception, when you get to that dragon-kin temple, there's no reason you should be able to know all there is to know about the denizens therein. Maybe you'll learn more quickly and maybe your learn more deeply, but you'll always have to be cautious with those first few forays.
Nikademis said:This is quite a timely post as I was considering (no pun inteded) creating a similar thread, though in a slightly different direction. I actually just made a post in another thread so I will just paste my response below:
...while I agree with not showing the level of the mob, I hope VR considers finding a new way to display the "con" of the mob. As it stands, they have just literally taken the EQ con system, and how the player interacts with it, and implemented into Pantheon. I would like to see some innovation here, much the way it was handled in Vanguard -- the "dot" con system essentially provided the same information but packaged it in a sleek, intuitive ui design accessed simply by targeting the mob.
For anyone unfamiliar, this link shows a Vanguard enemy target window in the upper right corner (this image is not my own). The color of the dots gives you an indication of the mobs level relative to yours (same as EQ) and the number of dots gives you an indication of the mobs relative difficulty (much how the EQ system describes the mob, i.e. "what would you like your tombstone to say?"). As you can see, it conveys the same information but in a way unique to Vanguard (and in a more intuitive way IMO).
I'm not suggesting VR instead just use the Vanguard con system but consider finding a way to package this information in a new way and incorporating it into the ui. I think new players unfamiliar with the idea of "coning" a mob will struggle with the current iteration, while packaging the system into the ui will at least encourage new players to ask "how does this work" rather than getting frustrated.
There might well be a way to present the information in a UI-based way, though I quite like the natural language way.
Maybe there could be a separate, simple /consider window that gives you the text for targetted monster without having to remember to press 'C' or type /con?
I'm not sure if turning all the info into UI-friendly numbers, symbols and colours is over-simplifying and hand-holding too much?
I kinda feel like the act of considering ought really to actually take a second or two at least and be something that is actively 'done' rather than just automatically presented? Hmm.
kreed99 said:I kinda like having the target window display the consider color in some way. The only time i ever "Really" used /con was when i played rogue and needed to know if the mob saw me or not. Or if it was a new zone to me.
I suppose it would be fine to have basic colour shown without having to press anything, but if you want to know all the rest of the possible information (and for your perception and beastiary mastery to fully kick in) you have to use the full active Consider system?
disposalist said:The Orc Hunter is a Stone Orc. They hate you. This one looks nervous. It looks very formidable. It smells of smoke.
which means
Name: Orc Hunter
Faction: Stone Orc
Reaction: Hate (attack on sight)
Disposition: Coward
Level: 2 belowIt's a waffly and not fully fleshed out idea, but what do you think?...
I love this! I was conscerned with this, though:
disposalist said:There might well be a way to present the information in a UI-based way, though I quite like the natural language way.
Maybe there could be a separate, simple /consider window that gives you the text for targetted monster without having to remember to press 'C' or type /con?
Did some thinking about this and I thought about what happens when I mouse over mobs/NPCs on my warcraft characters (Im unaware if it works like this in all versions but at least it does in vanilla). Here's a screenshow of my dwarf mousing over a merchant. Unfortunately my mouse cursor hasn't been captured for whatever reason but you get the idea.
As you can see there is a type of "con" window on the bottom right. This is only visible while mousing over a character. My thought was that such a mouse-over window would be pretty great for displaying the natural text you detailed above. In this screenshot, the box could have said (lets assume my dwarf is level 17):
Xandar Goodbeard is an Ironforge dwarf. They like you. He looks nervous. He looks very formidable. He smells of gunpowder.
disposalist said:Nikademis said:This is quite a timely post as I was considering (no pun inteded) creating a similar thread, though in a slightly different direction. I actually just made a post in another thread so I will just paste my response below:
...while I agree with not showing the level of the mob, I hope VR considers finding a new way to display the "con" of the mob. As it stands, they have just literally taken the EQ con system, and how the player interacts with it, and implemented into Pantheon. I would like to see some innovation here, much the way it was handled in Vanguard -- the "dot" con system essentially provided the same information but packaged it in a sleek, intuitive ui design accessed simply by targeting the mob.
For anyone unfamiliar, this link shows a Vanguard enemy target window in the upper right corner (this image is not my own). The color of the dots gives you an indication of the mobs level relative to yours (same as EQ) and the number of dots gives you an indication of the mobs relative difficulty (much how the EQ system describes the mob, i.e. "what would you like your tombstone to say?"). As you can see, it conveys the same information but in a way unique to Vanguard (and in a more intuitive way IMO).
I'm not suggesting VR instead just use the Vanguard con system but consider finding a way to package this information in a new way and incorporating it into the ui. I think new players unfamiliar with the idea of "coning" a mob will struggle with the current iteration, while packaging the system into the ui will at least encourage new players to ask "how does this work" rather than getting frustrated.
There might well be a way to present the information in a UI-based way, though I quite like the natural language way.
Maybe there could be a separate, simple /consider window that gives you the text for targetted monster without having to remember to press 'C' or type /con?
I'm not sure if turning all the info into UI-friendly numbers, symbols and colours is over-simplifying and hand-holding too much?
I kinda feel like the act of considering ought really to actually take a second or two at least and be something that is actively 'done' rather than just automatically presented? Hmm.
Yea, ultimately our two thoughts are in some ways contrary. Much of your idea requires an active approach, essentially making "consider" skill which needs to be leveled. Whereas my idea essentially just takes the status quo and packages into the ui for ease of use.
I do like what you've laid out, and like you, I wonder if there's a way to reconcile both.
disposalist said:kreed99 said:I kinda like having the target window display the consider color in some way. The only time i ever "Really" used /con was when i played rogue and needed to know if the mob saw me or not. Or if it was a new zone to me.
I suppose it would be fine to have basic colour shown without having to press anything, but if you want to know all the rest of the possible information (and for your perception and beastiary mastery to fully kick in) you have to use the full active Consider system?
Ya most definitely show the full flavor on /con, but just have the color show up around the target or some sort of indicator showing its color. Even maybe the target circles showing the color?
I like the idea of having an "easy" con as well as a in depth /con
Leave the circle of current target RED. Have the target that is on the bar (on the right hand side above spells) show up the color of the con.
At least you will know if you are killing blues, etc without having to type /con on each mob
The 5 streams hardly conned anything.
I liked EQ 2's con, the name would just show up as a color, and contained markers to indicate strength, just streamlined the system. Like, that [an Orc Slasher]may be light green but the red bracket around it indicates he's gonna pick your bones from his teeth! you can still hit the C button to get info on it's disposition towards you. Either way, w/e we'll have to use it.
I like being able to have some idea of how difficult a potential enemy is. Without needing to have a high perception skill. It may not be totally realistic but I would hate frequent deaths because the pig I attacked turned out to be 20 levels higher than I was but it sure looked like a normal pig.
I also like the idea of getting more information based on the perception skill - this seems like a very basic use for the skill. After all, most of us will do a lot of fighting and what can we possibly care more about and devote more effort to than increasing the odds of winning rather than dying.
Ya i still want to use /con for rogue or other invis and deeper knowledge factors, but i think an easy color system on the target bar is welcome by all. I appreciate the current red color for offensive target but i would like to see the con color on this option. And if we just avoid the same color as the beneficial target..... maybe make the beneficial target a different color like purple?? That way deep blue doesnt correspond to beneficial??
