Is the necromancer really necessary for Pantheon? I can see the Bard being part of the game at launch or later, given the need for a second CC class (in addition to the enchanter). I've read people's thoughts about the necromancer being necessary for this game, and they are all inconsistent and some lacking. It seems the necromancer could just be more of a burden to the gameplay of Pantheon. Why not just leave the necro out and consider a few different approaches. Perhaps the Dire Lord can be a unique class in that it can spec or branch off into either a caster or melee emphasis of the class. Or, just make the Dire Lord the 'weaker' tank of the the three tank classes (Dire Lord, Pally, Warrior), but in exchange grant them more spells in line with a necro so that it would play similar to a necro while still being capable of tanking.
As for races, the 12 announced races are PLENTY I think. I noticed that part of the "MMORPG's getting easy, dumbed down, and stupid trend" have something in common: the addition of silly, pointless races in expansions - that's to say it nicely. For example, cats on the moon in EQ. Also, the addition of pandas (lmao) in WoW. How about let's do something different this time: let's abolish this icky trend. The addition of NPC-races will do just fine. We can add more classes I suppose for fun, but aren't necessary. Let's also never forget: the ultimate goal of expansions to Pantheon should always be to make the game equally or more challenging (not less...). We can and will correct the mistakes of the past. This will draw more veterans to Pantheon.
To the devs and classic-veterans and fans: what are your thoughts?
Udate: Thanks for the input regarding the necro. I agree they can be a part of the game. They are the base of evilness and are iconic. My SINCERE apologies. Also, what do you think the goal of expansions to Pantheon should be?
Is any class "necessary"? I think that's the wrong bar to use.
Would Necromancer as a class add diversity and potentially a new way to play the game? Yes. Therefore, I see no reason not to include it either at launch or shortly after.
Personally, I hope that Bard and Necromancer are just the beginning, and that VR continues to add new class concepts in expansions. Both favorites from previous games (VG Bloodmage comes to mind) as well as completely new and unique concepts as well.
Nephele said:Is any class "necessary"? I think that's the wrong bar to use.
Would Necromancer as a class add diversity and potentially a new way to play the game? Yes. Therefore, I see no reason not to include it either at launch or shortly after.
Personally, I hope that Bard and Necromancer are just the beginning, and that VR continues to add new class concepts in expansions. Both favorites from previous games (VG Bloodmage comes to mind) as well as completely new and unique concepts as well.
I see what you are saying, but some would argue that going "class and race happy" is part of what lead to the downfall of Everquest and what we are seeing with WoW. Also, with the exception of Kunark/Velious and TBC, expansions made those games lame. At least that seems to be what other vets feel as well. I don't want Pantheon to have a similar fate. Just a thought.
It is hard for me to say what the VR necromancer might look like as i am still waiting to see how the caster reveal is going to shape up. I have never really played casters, i usually stuck with dps tank or priest. Based on concept alone i would say adding the necromancer or another type of "evil" class would be to help balance the good vs evil classes with having a bard added. Not saying you have to be a good bard or an evil necro. You can be an evil bard and a good necro. Im just saying conceptually bards are usually good and necro's usually evil. Also, when you add a melee type class you want to offset with a caster type class. That is really my only reasoning as to why we would need to add another class besides bard. Its not a solid reasoning, just my own.
Syrif said:Udate: What do you think the goal of expansions to Pantheon should be?
Could care less about what classes or even races for that matter are in the game. As long as they aren't immersion breaking or OP'd (like Beastlord at it's release in EQ2) then I don't much care.
As for making or keeping the game challenging at expansion release, I think what needs to happen is opposite of what EQ2 did.
In EQ2 for example, in Expansion 1, they made Crit Chance the stat needed. Expansion 2 it was Multi Attack so everything that was good at Crit Chance was worthless. In Expansion 3 it was Mitigation so Crit Chase, Multi Attack were worthless. In Expansion 4 it was Potency so everything else was worthless. This continued on and still does and it's aggrivating.
What should happen is stats should stay low so good gear remains good gear and the work can be in the design of the content nad puzzles of fights not the "challenge" of getting all new gear.
A goal of an expansion should add content, not innovative and change and add new ways to do basic things.
Give more attention to the lore of the game.
More attention to the dynamic aspects of the game. Encounter design, Quest designs, Recipe designs, Armor and other Art design. Implement some sort of gimmick with each expansion like collecting resources for a campaign or that sort of thing.
I know they have said down the line they want to implement some sort of AA system, but please take the time to do it right. I liked the idea of AA's in EQ1, but when all my spells were replaced by AA versions i was like.... more hotbuttons??!
I think working on QoL functions or other non-basic game mechanic features is a good focus for expansions.
Adding races is fine by me. Pantheon is a melting-pot for races from other worlds.
Kittik said:What should happen is stats should stay low so good gear remains good gear and the work can be in the design of the content nad puzzles of fights not the "challenge" of getting all new gear.
I think I understand what your saying, but people want to be rewarded when they complete the puzzles of new content, and the traditional way people expect to be rewarded by completing events is by obtaining gear with higher stats. I dont want to disagree with you, because I agree we need to fight mudflation. Im just saying, new puzzles isnt a big enough carrot alone to motivate people to play. Most people want to flaunt their accomplishments and feel empowered by their successes.
That said, new ways of playing can be raid rewards. Necromancer and other unique classes can be unlocked as a reward for completing endgame events. When you see a necromancer, you might say to yourself "oh wow that person must be uber to have competed X raid". But, then there are players who think classes should be part of the cost of the game, and that they paid for the game so they should have access to all the content aka access to all of the classes.
I think necromancer is discussed as a 'need' because its a fun idea to have a pet army of undead. Its more than just a pet playstle, its a 'character'.. its demonic/evil/supernatural cliche players want represented.
I would argue that in most long-running games, it's not the addition of races/classes that make the games "lame". Instead, it's adherance to a flawed system of ever-increasing player power, which leads to top-heavy gameplay, obsolete content, and in my experience, general "lameness". Whether or not there were new races or classes added really doesn't change much in that regard.
I do think that it's harder to add a new class in a game that's already on a bad path, because the tendency is to want to make that class powerful and attractive which means it ends up being "better" than some old class in the eyes of players. I can certainly see how that might give the perception that the class was the cause of the problem. But I submit that the problem would have happened anyway.
In my mind, there's equal value in adding new ways to experience the world and adding new content, when it comes to what should be in scope of an expansion. Please note that doesn't have to be classes. It could just as easily be adding a housing system, or a diplomacy minigame, or new underwater dungeons, or multi-passenger mounts. All of these give players more flexibility in how they approach the game, just like a new class would. They can be implemented well or implemented poorly, and the game will either thrive or suffer as a result.
What makes a good expansion, I think, is when it adds something significant and meaningful for everyone - whether they're relatively new to the game, or whether they've been around for a while. That doesn't always have to be just new areas to explore, although new areas should certainly be a part of it.
So for me, I think it's easier to say what I don't want to see in expansions. I don't want to see the level cap increased every single time, though once in a while is fine. I don't want to see older content or items become obsolete for at-level characters. I don't want to see general gameplay suddenly become much easier or harder than it was before the expansion. And finally, I don't want to see things added to the game that really don't make sense in terms of the existing lore and backstory we know. Beyond that, I don't think any ideas are bad as long as they are implemented with care.
Syrif said:Is the necromancer really necessary for Pantheon? I can see the Bard being part of the game at launch or later, given the need for a second CC class (in addition to the enchanter). I've read people's thoughts about the necromancer being necessary for this game, and they are all inconsistent and some lacking. It seems the necromancer could just be more of a burden to the gameplay of Pantheon. Why not just leave the necro out and consider a few different approaches. Perhaps the Dire Lord can be a unique class in that it can spec or branch off into either a caster or melee emphasis of the class. Or, just make the Dire Lord the 'weaker' tank of the the three tank classes (Dire Lord, Pally, Warrior), but in exchange grant them more spells in line with a necro so that it would play similar to a necro while still being capable of tanking.
To the devs and classic-veterans and fans: what are your thoughts?
Sound and unsound logic here. The direlord is already heavily designed and implemented. What good does it do for them to revamp that class intead of continuing to work on the necro?
That said, I agree with the overall idea that at some point they need to stop or else everything will be watered down, or done less well.
We need necro in this game as the 2nd pet class, and we need more support classes like bard and necro.
To me more options is never a bad thing, I am personally not in support of class/race restriction but its not a big deal. Pantheon will likely have new races over time as new worlds connect to Terminus, it just makes good sense to add the content from level 1 up. The challenge with adding classes is not to break from good, math based, class design. Just uping the power level on each new class and race for "hype" reasons is just as bad as cash shops.
As per the OPs question if the Necro is just another DPS class then I would say no its not needed and likely to add to the complaining about class balance. Now if Necro was actually a CC class that was a combination of bone cages, petrified fear effects, distracting short term tank pets that are intended to die and a range of debuffs but few damage options then I'm totally on board. After all right now we only have 2 CC classes at launch so another would be good.
Lastly I think it is likely that 50% or more of Pantheon expansion content will be focused on new horizontal progression options that both new and old characters can enjoy.
We need and adept in dark magic, not to push it into a melee tanking class that should fit another role.
We have illusion and enchantment magic covered by the enchanter, evocation and alteration by the wizard, invocation and ? maybe evocation or transmutation on the summoner.
What we need more is necromancy, on the raise dead aspect but also on manipulating the life forces alltogether.
I'd also love an Abjuration oriented class, but I'm not sure they would enjoy bringing a healer-mage character.
When an expansion has Kung-Fu Pandas with a serious attempt to have 'lore' to include them you know a game has gone badly wrong.
I think Necro and Bard would be a shame to be missed - they are RPG staples for good reason - but I too hope that VR don't get tempted to follow up with too many 'cool' and 'fun' classes or races that are weird and/or unbalanced.
It is definitely not added classes/races that bring down games, it's all the other content and mechanic changes that tend to come with expansions. Regardless Pantheon is currently set to launch with 3 less races and 2 less (confirmed) classes than EQ did.
There is most definitely room for Necromancer and the unique class feeling/playstyle that they can bring to the table, hopefully as the 3rd class for the CC role centered around transfering life/mana essence, paraylyzing fear (mez), and things like that. There is also plenty of room for other classes down the line (Berserker etc).
Necro will probably be released in the first expansion. It makes too much sense in terms of marketing to not do it. Rushing to get the necro in for the game's release puts a ton of pressure on the devs with marginal benefit. Not only do you have to make the class itself, but you have to develop a bunch of content specifically for the class (having class content being a part of Pantheon's design philosophy).
But if you're arguing that the game should never do a necro... well that's just silly.
Iksar said:It is definitely not added classes/races that bring down games...
Sometimes it is when not balanced. I remember when the fairy became playable with an expansion in EQ2. It was clearly broken on the PVP server. They had a huge advantage over any other races. They could glide, chose where to land and take no damage from falling. Some classes had safe fall as a passive, and the fairy racial ability was much stronger. All classes played as fairy were much stronger on the PvP server.
In pvp, it was very important to position yourself correctly. Let's say you were on a griffon tower and a melee would kick you down. That was supposed to be a great play but fairies did not care.
As much as I loved my EQ necro. It always felt like a solo class. It also took a lot of effort just to get reputation to enter cities to visit friends. Always had to wait down the road so I wouldn't get killed by guards. When they do add necros I hope they have an interesting story in this world and aren't so hated. :D
I think Necros and Bards should be post launch.
I think the Necro is a very important class, not only for lore but as a group asset too. They shouldn't just be DOT wizards. They should be capable as a third CC to the bard and enchanter. Considereing there are 3 tanks, and 3 healers. As far as the direlords, nobody wants to play the "weaker" class just for some necro spells.
The number of races in a game doesn't make anything worse or take away from playability. They deffinitely don't "dumb" down gameplay. Take another game Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup for example, There are 27 races you can play, all with their unique quirks. They range from felines, to mummies, to octopi. None of them feel like the others.
Variety is a spice of life and will keep players trying many combinations.
Expansions should add content of varying difficulty and should be balanced with previous versions. They have to scale up in power, otherwise, what's the point?
SilkyWhip said:I think the Necro is a very important class, not only for lore but as a group asset too. They shouldn't just be DOT wizards. They should be capable as a third CC to the bard and enchanter. Considereing there are 3 tanks, and 3 healers. As far as the direlords, nobody wants to play the "weaker" class just for some necro spells.
The number of races in a game doesn't make anything worse or take away from playability. They deffinitely don't "dumb" down gameplay. Take another game Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup for example, There are 27 races you can play, all with their unique quirks. They range from felines, to mummies, to octopi. None of them feel like the others.
Variety is a spice of life and will keep players trying many combinations.
Expansions should add content of varying difficulty and should be balanced with previous versions. They have to scale up in power, otherwise, what's the point?
I've been thinking of them as a DPS class, but this isn't a bad idea. They could bring CC in the form of pet tanking, fear, rooting, and debuff.
zoltar said:SilkyWhip said:I think the Necro is a very important class, not only for lore but as a group asset too. They shouldn't just be DOT wizards. They should be capable as a third CC to the bard and enchanter. Considereing there are 3 tanks, and 3 healers. As far as the direlords, nobody wants to play the "weaker" class just for some necro spells.
The number of races in a game doesn't make anything worse or take away from playability. They deffinitely don't "dumb" down gameplay. Take another game Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup for example, There are 27 races you can play, all with their unique quirks. They range from felines, to mummies, to octopi. None of them feel like the others.
Variety is a spice of life and will keep players trying many combinations.
Expansions should add content of varying difficulty and should be balanced with previous versions. They have to scale up in power, otherwise, what's the point?
I've been thinking of them as a DPS class, but this isn't a bad idea. They could bring CC in the form of pet tanking, fear, rooting, and debuff.
Undead mez and charm as well.
I for one will be dropping whatever character I start with like a hot potato when the Necro class gets released.
The Necromancer class has been, and always will be my favorite class in any game I have played that has them as an choice.
Saying that the Necro would be "just be more of a burden to the gameplay of Pantheon" is a very narrow minded point of view towards those that perfer it as their chosen class.
OK let’s walk through this. Currently we have the four group dynamics. Tank, healer, dps, and caster . Three tank classes, three healers, three melee dps classes and three caster classes. Within most of these classes so far we have the abilities to provide different roles as they are needed. Be it crowd control, extra DPS, off tanks, or buffer. Plus they have some cool extra utilities to get out of situations.
All in all, we have a pretty awesome and seemingly balanced class situation here. The question for me becomes what do the necromancer (or the bard )add or provide to a group, and to the game, outside cool ideas for new classes? I agree that both of these classes are interesting to think about. As I recall, the bard was usually just a buff bot/extra dps/tank class and the necro is a dot/ pet class that has some interesting utilities, but as I mentioned before, the necro felt like a loner class and the bard felt redundant. Where do they fit? For me, they seem like bogus extra classes for the sake of having extra classes.
I would love to be wrong here ( and probably am ), but I've seen too many games with balancing issues just because the dev's wanted to have extra classes to fill some creative nook. With each new class you risk pushing another class out of its desire to be wanted in a group. UNLESS...you have them all perfectly and interchangeably balanced....... I've yet to see that.
My two plats :D
Bronsun said:When they do add necros I hope they have an interesting story in this world and aren't so hated. :D
I really like how necromancer is handled story-wise in GW2. They're creepy as hell but are fundamental to human society. Death is scary, dark, and gross, but unavoidable.
As for the expansion discussion... I love when new races are added, even more than new classes. This game already has so many, that I won't be fussed if they don't add any for a while, though. I generally think that expansions should be as their name implies - expanding the game, through the opening of new zones (significantly more, as in like a new continent), progression of storylines, implementation of new/improved game systems, etc. They're more than just a content patch; they change the game in such a way that it's almost like a new one.