vjek said:So, this is the same as EQ1 today. Which means the behavior, for those who treat MMO's as a job/income, will be the same.
They don't break the EULA/TOS, they multi-box (permitted) multiple accounts.
They never leave, or will train you repeatedly until you leave, if you try to encourage them to leave.
They never communicate using in-game communication methods unless a GM /tells them.
The reason this happens in eq1 is because the game is so old, that all of the information is present and available to know exactly what items are valuable and how to exploit camps to achieve this.
Also eq1 is EXTREMELY easy to box, and there are a ton of programs out there that "assist" you. Again this is due to the way the game was designed.
This is very unlikely in a game that is newer and has a robust loot system. And if RMTers cant camp 1 particular item they generally will camp tradeskill materials which usually mean a much more advanced script and a much higher likelihood of being caught.
Ainadak said:I believe the system is 5) Most Damage Done. Whatever group/raid has damaged a mob most gets everything.
This is how it was in EQ1 - I think it would be a good model for Pantheon also. It makes sense. If someone is fighting over the mobs, the best group / person wins. Now, there is always potential for greifers or people stealing, that is why GM's will be active and have a report system - just like EQ1. Later on I believe they implimented a % base of the mobs HP that will allow it to be "tagged" say 20%. Once the mob has received 20% damage it is the group who did the most dmg in that time that gets it.
I do not agree with "tagging" because it makes it very easy to powerlevel other players. A lvl 5 player "tags" 5 or 6 lvl 10 mobs and then you lvl 50 wizard friend - awe nukes them all and you get 100% of the xp for them. Thats not right. At least requiring the lvl 5 player to deal 20% of the damage and then someone else kill is more of a balanced system.
dorotea said:That's a very odd argument to make, given everything Pantheon is about and its very reason for being created in the first place. And really, that's a rather false assertion. It's not that "players are different today". There's an entire extant demographic of MMORPG fans that have been under-served. We're still around. We haven't "gone away" or changed. We were pushed aside in favor of the more watered-down, cookie-cutter themepark, "everyone's a winner" type design that's taken over the genre over the last decade or so. Pantheon is not being developed to cater to "today's players". There's already dozens of other titles filling that role. Pantheon is, quite deliberately, not one of those options. This has been known since its announcement. Your arguments echo something I see a lot, especially for this game: "I like idea of a MMO designed around old-school, classic concepts and gameplay, just as long as it has all the conveniences and inclusive "everyone's a winner" design of modern themepark titles". Not saying that to be rude, or sound like a jerk... Your perspective here just seems very out of line with what Pantheon is intended to be.This is not EQ. Players today are different.
Wolfsong said:dorotea said:That's a very odd argument to make, given everything Pantheon is about and its very reason for being created in the first place. And really, that's a rather false assertion. It's not that "players are different today". There's an entire extant demographic of MMORPG fans that have been under-served. We're still around. We haven't "gone away" or changed. We were pushed aside in favor of the more watered-down, cookie-cutter themepark, "everyone's a winner" type design that's taken over the genre over the last decade or so. Pantheon is not being developed to cater to "today's players". There's already dozens of other titles filling that role. Pantheon is, quite deliberately, not one of those options. This has been known since its announcement. Your arguments echo something I see a lot, especially for this game: "I like idea of a MMO designed around old-school, classic concepts and gameplay, just as long as it has all the conveniences and inclusive "everyone's a winner" design of modern themepark titles". Not saying that to be rude, or sound like a jerk... Your perspective here just seems very out of line with what Pantheon is intended to be.This is not EQ. Players today are different.
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dorotea said:This is not EQ. Players today are different.
I can say with almost total certainty that when the game starts almost every single player other than us will assume it is proper to tag mobs that are already engaged because in almost every MMO for over a decade it is proper and the mechanics prevent kill stealing. We will have rampant kill stealing and confusion and it will do a lot of harm before things get sorted out.
You kill any points you may have when you make statements like this. I could just as easily say - This is not WoW, ESO, etc. etc. Players that pledged to Pantheon are different - see http://pantheonmmo.com/game/game_tenets/ or http://pantheonmmo.com/game/faqs/.
You're right it's not EQ, but that doesn't mean players don't want some of the mechanics from EQ, it's mainly the reason why Pantheon is still here with the early EQ/VG pledgers were donating while Pantheon was on life support. I'd still argue that players aren't different today, there are plenty of old EQ/VG/FFXI vets dying for challenging gameplay again, and, also more importantly that there has been no games offering EQ style gameplay to even determine if newer MMO players are different. No one has been willing to take the risk. Field of Dreams style again - "If you build it, they will come."
And back on topic though, as far as tagging goes, you can still KS just as easy with tagged mobs. And in original EQ (not P1999 or progression servers) from March 99 really up until about 2016 when I quit for good, (took numerous breaks), I really struggle to remember any memorable KSing experience, but I'm sure it occured at least a handful of times throughout the years.
Raidan said:dorotea said:This is not EQ. Players today are different.
I can say with almost total certainty that when the game starts almost every single player other than us will assume it is proper to tag mobs that are already engaged because in almost every MMO for over a decade it is proper and the mechanics prevent kill stealing. We will have rampant kill stealing and confusion and it will do a lot of harm before things get sorted out.
You kill any points you may have when you make statements like this. I could just as easily say - This is not WoW, ESO, etc. etc. Players that pledged to Pantheon are different - see http://pantheonmmo.com/game/game_tenets/ or http://pantheonmmo.com/game/faqs/.
You're right it's not EQ, but that doesn't mean players don't want some of the mechanics from EQ, it's mainly the reason why Pantheon is still here with the early EQ/VG pledgers were donating while Pantheon was on life support. I'd still argue that players aren't different today, there are plenty of old EQ/VG/FFXI vets dying for challenging gameplay again, and, also more importantly that there has been no games offering EQ style gameplay to even determine if newer MMO players are different. No one has been willing to take the risk. Field of Dreams style again - "If you build it, they will come."
And back on topic though, as far as tagging goes, you can still KS just as easy with tagged mobs. And in original EQ (not P1999 or progression servers) from March 99 really up until about 2016 when I quit for good, (took numerous breaks), I really struggle to remember any memorable KSing experience, but I'm sure it occured at least a handful of times throughout the years.
KSing happened a couple times a year to everyone, therefore there should be a mechanic in place to prevent it which makes the game worse for everyone, every single day.
Keno Monster said: KSing happened a couple times a year to everyone, therefore there should be a mechanic in place to prevent it which makes the game worse for everyone, every single day.
I'm not going to get back into the debate about MDD vs whatever other system people want, but I want to ask Keno why he keeps going back to this arguement? Just because YOU didn't see KS'ing very often does not mean this wasn't a daily thing for many other players. You're like a person saying "I've never met anyone who got murdered, so murders must not happen very often." or "I don't know anyone who committed suicide, so suicide must not happen very often." This would be very naive to think this way. You can't just assume that your experience is the most common experience. Perhaps you are the outlier or exception to the statistic. Perhaps only 5% of people never got KS'd very often, and you were part of the lucky 5%. And you sit back saying "Oh this never happens very often" because you are in that very lucky minority of players who didn't see KS'ing at all. (Please note, I am not saying that 5% is an actual true value... just using it to make a point).
Unless you have specific resourced data that accurately calculates the true rate at which KS'ing happend in previous games, you can't just make a blanket statement saying "This almost never happens" and expect people to accept that.
I'm not telling you to change your stance on the topic of 'who gets kill credit'. I'm just saying, that this arguement is not going to be accepted by anyone you say it to and will probably just get them upset at you and think you're just ignorant. I happen to believe that you normally have good idea's and thoughts, so you're not likely ignorant. But using this type of statement does sound that way.
I'm wondering what would be the effort to make the exp/loot repartition dependant of the mob that is being killed.
Basically, the system giving xp and loot to the party that makes the more damages works fine in most situations (except maybe that I would take into account damages dealt by the mob and also damages healed, not only damages done to the mob, to make tanks and healers less disadvantaged).
Problems occur on some named mobs or world bosses in heavy concurrential situation (I mean, not deep in a dungeon with long clean etc ...) when loot is more important than exp repartition (which on these mobs is totally petty). For these situations, considering a mob being a player's / party's property is a bit ridiculous and negating the community and massive aspect of MMO. For such mobs, sharing exp do not appear scandalous to me, and about loot, for every item a roll taking into account the contribution of any participant / party seems more adequate. Another aspect is quest items of that kind of mobs, it can be managed by giving the item to every participant, or by making mobs dropping a random number of these items and making rolls for each instance of the item. All in all, making this kind of encounters some kind of public events, with specific rules.
One last thing, I remember in raid situations, there were many groups involved but very often one was getting most of the exp, and it was not so cool, creating concurrency and race inside raids ... stupid, but human ... so if raid exp could be shared equally among raiders, that would be fine.
GoofyWarriorGuy said:Keno Monster said: KSing happened a couple times a year to everyone, therefore there should be a mechanic in place to prevent it which makes the game worse for everyone, every single day.
I'm not going to get back into the debate about MDD vs whatever other system people want, but I want to ask Keno why he keeps going back to this arguement? Just because YOU didn't see KS'ing very often does not mean this wasn't a daily thing for many other players. You're like a person saying "I've never met anyone who got murdered, so murders must not happen very often." or "I don't know anyone who committed suicide, so suicide must not happen very often." This would be very naive to think this way. You can't just assume that your experience is the most common experience. Perhaps you are the outlier or exception to the statistic. Perhaps only 5% of people never got KS'd very often, and you were part of the lucky 5%. And you sit back saying "Oh this never happens very often" because you are in that very lucky minority of players who didn't see KS'ing at all. (Please note, I am not saying that 5% is an actual true value... just using it to make a point).
Unless you have specific resourced data that accurately calculates the true rate at which KS'ing happend in previous games, you can't just make a blanket statement saying "This almost never happens" and expect people to accept that.
I'm not telling you to change your stance on the topic of 'who gets kill credit'. I'm just saying, that this arguement is not going to be accepted by anyone you say it to and will probably just get them upset at you and think you're just ignorant. I happen to believe that you normally have good idea's and thoughts, so you're not likely ignorant. But using this type of statement does sound that way.
You realize that by pointing this out, you re essentially saying that people who have been ksed a bunch and think it's the norm are correct. But in reality it's the same exact arguement Keno is making. They are saying omg I hate this mechanic I've had it happen a bunch... blah blah.
Fact of the matter is, KSing was never a big part of EQ. If YOU have any statistics to counter this feel free to add then and cite references. It just didnt happen. Yes. There were jerks on all servers who might KS you here or there, but it was not widespread at all. Infact from classic to dragons of Norrath I cannot remember ever being KSed in eq1. Ever.
Porygon said: Fact of the matter is, KSing was never a big part of EQ. If YOU have any statistics to counter this feel free to add then and cite references. It just didnt happen. Yes. There were jerks on all servers who might KS you here or there, but it was not widespread at all. Infact from classic to dragons of Norrath I cannot remember ever being KSed in eq1. Ever.
Well I don't have specific statistics to site for you... but I do have several years experience as a Guide in EQ1 and I know how often I had to deal with tickets regarding KS'ing and similar griefing every single day. Since I was the one dealing with mediating this kind of thing, I got to see how much it happend on the server I was a Guide and not just on my own player charaters when it happend to me personally. So while I may not have exact numbers or statistics, I do have a third party perspective of the fact that this was a very common occurance for lots of players every single day.
This is why I have said in other threads on griefing topics that VR needs to have clear policies for what is and what is not acceptable in regards to KS'ing and other similar things so that guides will be able to rapidly deal with these kinds of reports. If it's clearly defined in a PNP what crosses the line into unacceptable KS'ing/Griefing, then the Volunteer guides will be able to clearly guide (no pun intended) players to working things out and head off future Griefing.
Now if you were lucky enough to never ever experience this kind of griefing... you were blessed and I hope you never have to deal with that kind of griefing and/or harrassement. But for you to say "It just didn't happen", well I'm sorry to disappoint you, but it did. Hopefully Pantheon will not have this kind of problem at the same level it happend in EQ back in the day.
Porygon said: It just didnt happen
Porygon said: I'm not implying it didnt happen.
Facepalm!
Porygon said: If it never happened we wouldn't have terminology for it. I'm saying it didnt happen enough to warrant needing to design mechanics that specifically prevent it. It's not a major issue. That's all.
Actually they did just that when Blizzard created World of Warcraft to be instanced and use FTE. This was specifically because EQ had so much KS'ing and they wanted their game to not have to deal with that issue.
Of course with Pantheon the whole point of the game is to NOT be instanced, and so the real mechanic specifically preventing KS'ing isn't going to happen. So this means therewill be KS'ing in Pantheon and it will need to be dealt with in some way. My points have always leaned more towards clarity in PNP so players know what is acceptable competition for targets and what is considered KS'ing and you could be penalized.
As for FTE or MDD or whatever other system people want, they are all going to have some form of KS'ing. I don't mind which one is chosen myself... I just want there to be some rules in place to deal with the KS'ing when it happens.
With FTE this prevents some KS'ing but tends to cause accidental KS'ing and piss off people who are a little slower when somebody snags the mob they were about to engage. This one is where the line is very blurry on KS'ing or not since some would argue "Until you tag it it's not yours". At least with MDD it's very obvious when somebody is attempting to KS you. Since they need to actively dps burn the mob to try and take it from your group.