I didn't want to mention it because it is opinion based but, I do agree with Keno. Kill Stealing was simply never a major issue.
Especially in a group first game where reputation matters like Pantheon will be, KS'n will likely end up hurting a player in the long run more than that exp/loot from that mob would help them.
Keno Monster said:You're saying that you want mobs to drop their loot for every group that touched it?
It works well in my experience, especially so when dealing with major world bosses that might require a large number of people. But in general, my experience has been that the community benefits from an open-tagging system. I don't have to get stressed by the presence of other people in a zone competing for particular mobs. Instead, we help each other. It's no skin off my back if someone gets to a boss spawn after I did and wants to hit the boss, too. (I actually feel guilty if I seem them coming and the boss dies before they get to it... xD)
Naunet said:Keno Monster said:You're saying that you want mobs to drop their loot for every group that touched it?It works well in my experience, especially so when dealing with major world bosses that might require a large number of people. But in general, my experience has been that the community benefits from an open-tagging system. I don't have to get stressed by the presence of other people in a zone competing for particular mobs. Instead, we help each other. It's no skin off my back if someone gets to a boss spawn after I did and wants to hit the boss, too.
Again, it is a huge reason to not group. Why form up into a group of 6 and get 1 piece of loot when all 6 of you can kill the same mob and each one of you get the loot?
That creates massive inflation, kills trade, and forces the developers into mechanics like no drop and soulbound items.
1. It devalues content, both encounters and loots.
2. It increases the pace of the game(people don't need to stay in one spot, they can just tag and move tag and move)
3. It effectively reduces the size of the world. This is a form of instancing. You are instancing loot/exp/quest objectives in this case. Again, this is a mechanic that should be in place in a game like WOW where the vast majority of open world loot is gained through kill 10 rat quests.
4. It accelerates the power curve of players(more inflation) which in turn accelerates their leveling speed(more inflation), which again devalues content and makes the world smaller, forcing the devs to do even more work.
5. It is a disincentive to group.
6. Harms trade. No reason to trade for anything when you can just go tag it and get credit. See: no drop/soulbound items.
7. And, perhaps worst of all, it flies in the face of risk vs reward.
This aboslutely hurts you. It hurts everyone. And why? So the few and far between kill stealing griefers can't hurt someone? That is well beyond throwing the baby out with the bath water. This is a cure that is signifincantly more destructive to the game than the claimed disease could ever be.
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/game_tenets/
Are you asking what it "should" be or what it is? Because we already know the answer to the question.
Whoever (group/player/raid) does the most damage to a mob gets the full experience and loot. Just as it was in EQ1. There won't be any type of tagging system. Anyone can hit anything.
I disagree that MDD is more consistant that other systems with the game's core values. I not only disagree I am totally baffled by the statement. What in the core values is NOT just as consistant with some of the other options. MDD may or may not be the best system that is a separate point. It is consistancy with core values that has me shaking my head in disbelief.
While I like shared credit as I have said - I acknowledge some of Keno Monster's points which is why I mentioned first-to-tag as an old school formerly VERY common alternative.
Some people argue that kill stealing was not common in EQ - this may be so (depends on time period and server perhaps) but it is almost totally irrelevent.
This is not EQ. Players today are different.
I can say with almost total certainty that when the game starts almost every single player other than us will assume it is proper to tag mobs that are already engaged because in almost every MMO for over a decade it is proper and the mechanics prevent kill stealing. We will have rampant kill stealing and confusion and it will do a lot of harm before things get sorted out.
No we should not abandon basic principles because most newer players haven't experienced them and don't understand them. We should show them how good a game based on basic principles can be.
But I see this as an ancillary issue. Almost any of the systems discussed here can be used in a way consistant with slow leveling, consistent with slow traveling, consistent with large world, consistent with risk and excitement.
In short I don't see facilitating killstealing as a core principle.
If VR has made up their minds and the topic is not one that can productively be discussed they will tell us - they have done that on other topics. Otherwise even if they have a *leaning* we should assume that they are willing to listen to differing opinions.
dorotea said:If VR has made up their minds and the topic is not one that can productively be discussed they will tell us - they have done that on other topics.
Huh? They have always been open with the fact that it's ok to discuss game systems and theories while we wait regardless of how it will be implemented in game (as long as the conversation stays civil). There are constantly threads discussing mechanics that we have previously received official responses on. Usually those threads are from newer members who aren't up to date on all of the official info. They don't realize that a topic has been discussed repeatedly or that the answer is already known...just like this thread. It's fine to discuss. I would encourage people not to get their hopes up about changing game mechanics that we already have official answers on.
Keno Monster said:Again, it is a huge reason to not group. Why form up into a group of 6 and get 1 piece of loot when all 6 of you can kill the same mob and each one of you get the loot?
This just doesn't happen nearly as much as you think. I'm telling you my personal experience with this system, where it absolutely did NOT hurt me, nor anyone else.
Devalues content - how? Players can help each other, how horrible!
Increases pace of the game - not really. Easily balanced by scaling mob HP to the number of people attacking it (dynamic mob scaling is something a number of MMO developers have designed) and modifying rewards appropriately.
Reducing the size of the world? A form of instancing? These points make no sense. It opens up the world because EVERYONE can share it.
Accelerates power curve - again, how? With proper balancing of rewards and scaling, there is no significant effect.
It's not a disincentive to group. I group just as much as I would normally do in games with open tagging.
Harms trade? No, it does not in an appreciable way observed in other MMOs.
Not sure how it "flies in the face" of risk/reward balance, either.
Naunet said:Not sure how it "flies in the face" of risk/reward balance, either.
You don't see how one group clearing a spawn camp, spending 3 hours waiting for the rare mob to spawn, doing 95% damage to it when it does spawn and 5 other groups doing 1% of the damage and everybody getting the same rewards impacts risk vs reward balance?
Naunet said:Keno Monster said:Again, it is a huge reason to not group. Why form up into a group of 6 and get 1 piece of loot when all 6 of you can kill the same mob and each one of you get the loot?This just doesn't happen nearly as much as you think. I'm telling you my personal experience with this system, where it absolutely did NOT hurt me, nor anyone else.
Devalues content - how? Players can help each other, how horrible!
Increases pace of the game - not really. Easily balanced by scaling mob HP to the number of people attacking it (dynamic mob scaling is something a number of MMO developers have designed) and modifying rewards appropriately.
Reducing the size of the world? A form of instancing? These points make no sense. It opens up the world because EVERYONE can share it.
Accelerates power curve - again, how? With proper balancing of rewards and scaling, there is no significant effect.
It's not a disincentive to group. I group just as much as I would normally do in games with open tagging.
Harms trade? No, it does not in an appreciable way observed in other MMOs.
Not sure how it "flies in the face" of risk/reward balance, either.
Have you played either TESO or GW2 ? If you did, you would know this strategy sucks badly...
Wouldn't that make the standard playstyle to tag every mob you see that is being killed? So you can earn exp from things other people kill?
Open tagging won't work in a game like pantheon. Open tagging is best used (as mentioned before) in games with a wide variety of quests used to level. So that multiple players can all receive credit for killing the "quest mob".
MDD is going to be the way pantheon is run, and yes while you will find some people that kill steal... you won't see "killstealing death squads" of 6 rogues... that just doesnt happen.
What you would see... in an open tagging game. Is people hanging around named mobs they cant kill waiting for another group to attack them. Or entire raids that end up killing mobs with no groups in order to give every player a chance at loot.
I get that you've played games in the past where open tagging was a mechanic and these things didnt happen. But I guarantee you they would happen in a game like pantheon.
kreed99 said:This completely what if here, but What If: First to engage only needs to get 51% of the damage dealt to get the exp and loot and any group that trys to steal the kill must meet a 75% damage dealt percentage to steal the kill and get the exp/loot. Or some other higher percentage limitation. This way you can still help people that pull trains, but you won't get the recongnition for the kill unless you bypass a higher % standard. And this way if the FTE group dies then the percentage drops back down to 51% damage split between any competing groups.
Its kindof a hybrid idea. And totally what if'ing here.
I actually REALLY like this idea, and it's a shame it got lost in the discussion of MDD vs open tagging.
The only issue I have with it is that if I'm the kill stealer... and I happen to tag the mob first... you just made my job that much easier.
I dont know how the game would differentiate between the kill stealer vs the player/players they are stealing from.
philo said:Wouldn't that make the standard playstyle to tag every mob you see that is being killed? So you can earn exp from things other people kill?
It brings a lot of anti social abuses, the first beeing bots that roams areas by packs of 30 and just tag anything with AOE attacks, killing them instantly, getting mass exp and loot in the event.
Players that do not group neither socialize or even communicate. See a boss currently beeing damaged ? Just throw a spell to earn credit and go somewhere else killing something else before coming back for loot.
Rarity is divided by the number of players involved. As loot is multiplicated by the number o players present (exp too of course), the more people you bring the more odds to get something valuable you have. This, forces the change to be made from a "rare spawn secured loot" system, to a "rare spawn rare loot" system, because if you don't, for every spawn of a boss you get a loot table per player present. On the same edge, the more player you bring the more experience you get because you kill X times faster and everyone receives as much xp as if you were alone killing it, superprofit.
On this model, you bring a lot of instability in the market and reduce the edge of "performing a good group", as the largest number is allways victor. Make mob scale ? Either people will figure out thresholds of effectivness, or people will just semi-grief each others by tagging the mob for loot and exp withouth participation, hence increasing the scaling strength of the ennemy for who had the stupid idea to be seriously doing it. Overall, what does a scaling mob means in a RPG world ? If an ennemy has no fork of statistics, what are your own stats meaning, what is your current powerlevel ? Are you weaker the more people are present because the ennemy is stronger ? It makes no sense and really offer a pityfull experience.
That's what GW2 took as a model, and TESO all the way. It's even how do open world WOW bosses work and that's why all of them are just jokes. That's also why they suppressed long respawn on all thoses encounters because if everyone can tag them to get a loot, then everyone should have the chance to tag them. That's also why they changed to personnal loot, because if you're just here gather herbs and see a big baddie engaged, well, go forth and give it a shot. Even if you die in the first second of the fight you still EARN a chance to loot.
No, really, shame to everyone get Exp, loot and everything. It dumb down games and remove every social aspect of making a team, keeping friends, and bringing them for hard challenge. Why ? Because in the end you need none of them to obtain something, all you need is to engage the ennemy as do hundreds of players around you, withouth even talking, knowing or beeing friendly with any of them.
Porygon said:kreed99 said:This completely what if here, but What If: First to engage only needs to get 51% of the damage dealt to get the exp and loot and any group that trys to steal the kill must meet a 75% damage dealt percentage to steal the kill and get the exp/loot. Or some other higher percentage limitation. This way you can still help people that pull trains, but you won't get the recongnition for the kill unless you bypass a higher % standard. And this way if the FTE group dies then the percentage drops back down to 51% damage split between any competing groups.
Its kindof a hybrid idea. And totally what if'ing here.
The only issue I have with it is that if I'm the kill stealer... and I happen to tag the mob first... you just made my job that much easier.
This.
FTE is bad any way you slice it, imo. FTE is what facilitates killstealing, not MDD.
Porygon said:kreed99 said:This completely what if here, but What If: First to engage only needs to get 51% of the damage dealt to get the exp and loot and any group that trys to steal the kill must meet a 75% damage dealt percentage to steal the kill and get the exp/loot. Or some other higher percentage limitation. This way you can still help people that pull trains, but you won't get the recongnition for the kill unless you bypass a higher % standard. And this way if the FTE group dies then the percentage drops back down to 51% damage split between any competing groups.
Its kindof a hybrid idea. And totally what if'ing here.
I actually REALLY like this idea, and it's a shame it got lost in the discussion of MDD vs open tagging.
The only issue I have with it is that if I'm the kill stealer... and I happen to tag the mob first... you just made my job that much easier.
I dont know how the game would differentiate between the kill stealer vs the player/players they are stealing from.
The idea is not bad by itself but I think the maths are a bit off. If the FTE group does 49% and the second group does the 51%, both failed to attain their threshold of loot, meaning the loot and exp are both forever lost ?
Maybe the FTE need 25%, and any secondary group need to win the race of 51% to win the loot.
Meaning if FTE did 30% and STE did 70%, STE wins.
If FTE did 50% and STE did 50%, FTE wins.
If FTE did 25%, STE did 40% and TTE did 35%, FTE still wins.
If FTE did 40%, STE did 55% and TTE did 5%, STE wins.
Of course theses numbers can be tweaked in many direction, the idea is "two groups will be pretty competitive with each others, but a third one will break the balance and ease the work of the FTE". It can however be abused with a TTE group pre made to secure the FTE kill, for this reason my numbers can be wrong too.
>FTE is bad any way you slice it, imo. FTE is what facilitates killstealing, not MDD. <
A system that doesn't allow someone to come in and steal a mob facilitates killstealing more than a system that allows someone to steal the mob by doing more damage.
Of course ....walks away as quietly as possible.
>The only issue I have with it is that if I'm the kill stealer... and I happen to tag the mob first... you just made my job that much easier.<
But the traditional definition of killstealing is taking a mob away from someone that pulled it and is fignting it by doing more damage to the mob. By definition the puller CANT be the killstealer.
>You don't see how one group clearing a spawn camp, spending 3 hours waiting for the rare mob to spawn, doing 95% damage to it when it does spawn and 5 other groups doing 1% of the damage and everybody getting the same rewards impacts risk vs reward balance? <
Sure I have a problem with this. But I also have a problem with that group that spent three hours getting nothing because someone else rolled in and did a bit more damage. On balance I prefer loot being easier to get for people that didn't do the waiting than very hard to get for people that DID do the waiting. Also there is no reason someone doing almost no damage needs to get credit for a kill. Requiring e.g. 25% damage makes perfect sense.
dorotea said:>FTE is bad any way you slice it, imo. FTE is what facilitates killstealing, not MDD. <
A system that doesn't allow someone to come in and steal a mob facilitates killstealing more than a system that allows someone to steal the mob by doing more damage.
Of course ....walks away as quietly as possible.
Seriously? How in the world do you figure that FTE doesn't allow someone to steal a mob?
With MDD they at least have to do the majority of the damage. With FTE, all griefers have to do is wait until a group has cleared a spawn and when the named mob pops throw a knife at it and the mob is locked to them.
And what about classes that out range others? Your puller has been clearing spawns for 3 hours and is running towards a mob that just popped and a ranger shoots it from 150 yards away and it's their kill now?
There is ZERO recourse if a mob is stolen from you via FTE. NONE. You can't do anything about it. All because someone fast twitched better than you. At least with MDD you have a fighting chance.
smdh
The reason "most damage" works in this style of game is that "solo" is not typically possible on valuable targets. It's not "one jerk" who can come steal from your group. If 1 griefer is strong enough to do more damage to the mob than your entire group then they probably out-level the content such that there's no loot and no XP for them. The ONLY reason to engage in such activity is to grief and you report them and they get banned (all progress in a slow advancing game lost).
The trick with MDD is when equal strength groups are competing for spawns in the same area it allows a "winner". The server can decide socially if it's acceptable to bully into a camp, but it's on Pantheon devs to make sure there are enough camps to go around. If our pullers overlap between camps one of them will win and it doesn't matter who "tagged" first.
FWIW I also enjoyed the GW2 system that made me happy to see another hero, but that lead to some of the most insane scale-ups I've ever seen in a game. That level 10 centaur warlord suddenly grows to 10 million hit points to accommodate the 30 people that roamed into an area. Instead, Pantheon will have things like "doors that close when the boss is engaged" so it's not like another group can come running in and steal it mid fight. Of course, if you wipe, they can come through that door behind you and take it. Better be ready to finish fights you start.
Also, you can still help people. Group with them. It's hard to remember that the unit of content consumption in this game is a group, not an individual. If some necro is out soloing, they don't want your help. If a group of 3-4 is struggling they should be shouting for more or inviting you when you show up and shout for a group. If there's some incentive for multiple groups to be in the same camp/fight at the same time, organize a raid. This mythical scenario of "i'm out hunting by myself and someone steals my kill" is unlikely to be something you stumble into.
dorotea said:But the traditional definition of killstealing is taking a mob away from someone that pulled it and is fignting it by doing more damage to the mob. By definition the puller CANT be the killstealer
You're camping a named. I come to your camp. Watch you kill the ph, then time my attack so it hits when the names spawns (therefore attacking it first)and I kill said named doing more damage than you.
Most people would file this under kill stealing.
vladrynne said:The reason "most damage" works in this style of game is that "solo" is not typically possible on valuable targets. It's not "one jerk" who can come steal from your group. If 1 griefer is strong enough to do more damage to the mob than your entire group then they probably out-level the content such that there's no loot and no XP for them. The ONLY reason to engage in such activity is to grief and you report them and they get banned (all progress in a slow advancing game lost).
The trick with MDD is when equal strength groups are competing for spawns in the same area it allows a "winner". The server can decide socially if it's acceptable to bully into a camp, but it's on Pantheon devs to make sure there are enough camps to go around. If our pullers overlap between camps one of them will win and it doesn't matter who "tagged" first.
FWIW I also enjoyed the GW2 system that made me happy to see another hero, but that lead to some of the most insane scale-ups I've ever seen in a game. That level 10 centaur warlord suddenly grows to 10 million hit points to accommodate the 30 people that roamed into an area. Instead, Pantheon will have things like "doors that close when the boss is engaged" so it's not like another group can come running in and steal it mid fight. Of course, if you wipe, they can come through that door behind you and take it. Better be ready to finish fights you start.
Also, you can still help people. Group with them. It's hard to remember that the unit of content consumption in this game is a group, not an individual. If some necro is out soloing, they don't want your help. If a group of 3-4 is struggling they should be shouting for more or inviting you when you show up and shout for a group. If there's some incentive for multiple groups to be in the same camp/fight at the same time, organize a raid. This mythical scenario of "i'm out hunting by myself and someone steals my kill" is unlikely to be something you stumble into.
Great post
