I was just wondering in Pantheon, who will get exp (and loot) for a kill (when not grouped)? i.e. Player 1 is attacking a mob and someone else comes along and helps kill it without grouping up first. It's been done many ways in different MMOs. General list (though there may be others) is:
1) First damage "tags" the mob and they they all exp and loot regardless of who does does damage after that (as long as the player doesn't die).
2) Killing blow takes all damage and loot.
3) Everyone who damaged a mob gets exp and loot (in equal amounts).
4) Everyone who damaged a mob gets exp and loot (proportional to the damage they did).
Personally I like #4 the best. I'm not sure if the devs have made any comment on this or if there are other threads about it but I didn't see any from a quick search.
I generally prefer open-tagging systems, as it tends to encourage a less selfish community.
For more boss-like open world mobs, I think threat is a better determiner of contribution for rewards than damage. Basing it off damage screws over tanks and healers.
When they talked about it on stream, they said that credit would go to the group that dealt the most damage. XP and loot would then be split among that group. They might experiment with other systems during testing, although that is probably unlikely.
I hope they reconsider during testing. Giving loot and credit to whoever does the most damage encourages higher levels to come in and steal mobs that lower levels have pulled already. Kill stealing simply is not a good mechanic to adopt.
If I am level 3 and lose mobs to selfish level 9s a few times I may well decide that the system in this game is idiotic and I am not going to subscribe. Is that really what we want?
If open tagging is too "modern" better to go to the older system where whoever pulled the mob keeps it even if other people jump in and damage it.
I agree with Dorotea. Credit based on damage done is far too open to exploitation. In addition to the scenarios described by Dorotea, it also encourages stacking of DPS in groups at the expense of tanks/healers, to maximize a group's chance of getting credit on kills for world bosses and the like.
Honestly, I don't really see the problem with open tagging systems and consider them to be one of those modern MMO innovations that hugely improved communities. Instead of seeing a player or a group of players and feeling like you need to avoid them (or worse, be a jerk and steal mobs), everyone can work together without conflict.
I in turn agree that open tagging has improved communities and made people play nicer. Many innovations have made MMOs far too easy over the years - almost all of us agree to that or we wouldn't be here. Open tagging *does* make things easier but it is worth it for the reduction in selfishness.
Good point about stacking DPS a kill-steal group won't want tanks or healers if it can get away with just dps. Well bugger killsteal groups but good groups *afraid* of being kill stolen won't want tanks or healers either unless desperate.
Let us remember the goal of encouraging socialization. If three people show up and steal my mob they will get on my unfriends list. If three people show up and we can share - even if we weren't grouped when the pulling started - we may wind up friends, groupmates or even guildmates.
Valid point Dorotea.
I'll settle for option 3.
I don't see how it would work for the other options when in raids.
The issue concerning option 3, you allow for players to just pop in and hit the mob with a pillow and gain the same as an wizard did who nuked the mob from the start.
But then again, one might not be inclined to team up with such a player in the future.
philo said:This has been discussed multiple times. As Baz and others pointed out, the answer is "most dmg done".
And now we're having a discussion regarding the issues with "most dmg done". The game isn't even out in alpha yet. If VR is so set in their ways that we shouldn't be providing feedback on things they've "decided" on, then why even be here on the forums?
Barin999 said:The issue concerning option 3, you allow for players to just pop in and hit the mob with a pillow and gain the same as an wizard did who nuked the mob from the start.
I mean, if it doesn't hurt the other players, who really cares? If they were deliberately standing off to one side and then just tagged the mob once, then it's pretty easy to blacklist them from future groups. But if they just heard about a boss going down and wanted to participate but ended up arriving shortly before the kill, only getting a few hits in, it's not like it would negatively affect anyone in an open tagging system.
I agree that we need to discuss things to help give VR feedback. They will make the final decision, but we all have experience actually playing MMOs so our feedback should have some value to them. I spent 4 years in mmo game development (though I've moved to a different industry now) and so I can understand that they have implemented a "most damage gets the kill" approach for now. That is what we did initially too since it's the most strait forward approach to implement. But we later changed it to a more open kill system. Even though there might be some possibility for people to get exp or loot from minimal contribution to a kill, I think that the social benefit of not making kill stealing a possibility far out-weigh that.
This completely what if here, but What If: First to engage only needs to get 51% of the damage dealt to get the exp and loot and any group that trys to steal the kill must meet a 75% damage dealt percentage to steal the kill and get the exp/loot. Or some other higher percentage limitation. This way you can still help people that pull trains, but you won't get the recongnition for the kill unless you bypass a higher % standard. And this way if the FTE group dies then the percentage drops back down to 51% damage split between any competing groups.
Its kindof a hybrid idea. And totally what if'ing here.
Naunet said:And now we're having a discussion regarding the issues with "most dmg done". The game isn't even out in alpha yet. If VR is so set in their ways that we shouldn't be providing feedback on things they've "decided" on, then why even be here on the forums?
I'm not sure exactly how many discussions there have been about the pros and cons of the various ways who gets exp could be implemented. At least multiple.
The last one was very recent. Maybe a couple months ago?
You are not the only person that missed a dev comment a year or 2 back Naunet about how, at this point, major systems are pretty much set in stone. We have been in the tweaking/adjustment stage for a long time. We are welcome to discuss anthing we want on this forum while we wait for access to the testing forums but any major system changes would have had to happen years ago. I consider this to be one of those. How exp is distributed is fairly major. We know it will be most damage dealt.
I disagree that this is a "major system". Having actually worked in development in an MMO, it is a minor system from the development side of things. Yes it can have a major impact on exp gained, but from the development side of things this is actually fairly minor. I re-wrote our original "one player/group takes all" to a contribution based exp kill system in about a day.
Firewalker said:I disagree that this is a "major system". Having actually worked in development in an MMO, it is a minor system from the development side of things. Yes it can have a major impact on exp gained, but from the development side of things this is actually fairly minor. I re-wrote our original "one player/group takes all" to a contribution based exp kill system in about a day.
And how did you go about rebalancing the change in exp distribution to keep the leveling curve the same as it was prior to the change? Mass changes like you mention are easy to implement poorly.
At the end of the day, after a discussion has been rehashed repeatedly, we simply have to have faith in the VR team and Brads experience.
There will be a time to offer feedback during testing of course, but it seems to me there would have to be a serious issue to change something as essential as how exp is distributed.
philo said:but it seems to me there would have to be a serious issue to change something as essential as how exp is distributed.
IMO, this is a "serious" issue but one that can be fixed before it even becomes a problem. Nearly every MMO I've played that started by measuring contribution through damage done has switched, through community pressure, to measure it via threat generated (or in some cases, went to an open-tagging system). The roles of tanks/healers means damage done is simply not a valid measure of contribution for them, and open-tagging is far more community-inclusive.
Naunet said:philo said:but it seems to me there would have to be a serious issue to change something as essential as how exp is distributed.IMO, this is a "serious" issue but one that can be fixed before it even becomes a problem. Nearly every MMO I've played that started by measuring contribution through damage done has switched, through community pressure, to measure it via threat generated (or in some cases, went to an open-tagging system). The roles of tanks/healers means damage done is simply not a valid measure of contribution for them, and open-tagging is far more community-inclusive.
Define open tagging for me please. Does that mean first to engage? FTE is an absolutely awful idea if people are worried about kill stealing.
Keno Monster said:Define open tagging for me please. Does that mean first to engage? FTE is an absolutely awful idea if people are worried about kill stealing.
Open-tagging is when anyone who hits a mob gets credit for the kill, receiving XP and (where appropriate) loot, even if the players are not in a party together.
Basically, it completely eliminates "kill-stealing" and also incentivizes people helping each other kill mobs because everyone can get credit.
Keno Monster said:MDD is 100% in line with the core values and philosphy of this game. It is extremely unlikely that they will change it, and that is a good thing.
Except, again, it means that tanks and healers will have a VERY difficult time getting credit for kills...
Naunet said:Keno Monster said:Define open tagging for me please. Does that mean first to engage? FTE is an absolutely awful idea if people are worried about kill stealing.Open-tagging is when anyone who hits a mob gets credit for the kill, receiving XP and (where appropriate) loot, even if the players are not in a party together.
Basically, it completely eliminates "kill-stealing" and also incentivizes people helping each other kill mobs because everyone can get credit.
That's a mechanic for themepark quest hub based games where people level up and gain items by doing kill 10 rat quests. It has no place in a game like this.
If your group clears down to a named mob and clears the area for a couple hours when it finally spawns, you engage and kill the mob, why in the world would anyone else deserve a piece of that pie just for poking it with a stick once or twice? They took no risk, participated the bare minimun, and yet are rewarded? That flies in the face of everything this game is about.
Additionally, open tagging is absolutely a disincentive to group and be social with others. If people can just piggyback on content that someone else is doing they have that much more reason to not bother with other people, violating another core value of this game.
Naunet said:Keno Monster said:Define open tagging for me please. Does that mean first to engage? FTE is an absolutely awful idea if people are worried about kill stealing.Open-tagging is when anyone who hits a mob gets credit for the kill, receiving XP and (where appropriate) loot, even if the players are not in a party together.
Basically, it completely eliminates "kill-stealing" and also incentivizes people helping each other kill mobs because everyone can get credit.
Keno Monster said:MDD is 100% in line with the core values and philosphy of this game. It is extremely unlikely that they will change it, and that is a good thing.Except, again, it means that tanks and healers will have a VERY difficult time getting credit for kills...
I never saw rampant, or even common, kill stealing in EQ and I have something like 2 years /played. You're acting like kill stealing death squads are roaming every zone.
Keno Monster said:That's a mechanic for themepark quest hub based games where people level up and gain items by doing kill 10 rat quests. It has no place in a game like this.If your group clears down to a named mob and clears the area for a couple hours when it finally spawns, you engage and kill the mob, why in the world would anyone else deserve a piece of that pie just for poking it with a stick once or twice? They took no risk, participated the bare minimun, and yet are rewarded? That flies in the face of everything this game is about.
Additionally, open tagging is absolutely a disincentive to group and be social with others. If people can just piggyback on content that someone else is doing they have that much more reason to not bother with other people, violating another core value of this game.
I disagree entirely.
From my personal experience, I am far more socially engaged in MMOs with open-tagging than I am in MMOs without. I'll happily help out people I see in need and more than willing to share space with others in a zone. The overall experience is far more positive as well.
I honestly don't care one bit if someone comes in at the end to get a tag on a mob I helped kill. It doesn't affect me at all, and I'm happy they got the chance to kill it. I like my gaming to be positive and friendly, not cut-throat and nasty and rife with kill-stealing.
Naunet said:Keno Monster said:That's a mechanic for themepark quest hub based games where people level up and gain items by doing kill 10 rat quests. It has no place in a game like this.If your group clears down to a named mob and clears the area for a couple hours when it finally spawns, you engage and kill the mob, why in the world would anyone else deserve a piece of that pie just for poking it with a stick once or twice? They took no risk, participated the bare minimun, and yet are rewarded? That flies in the face of everything this game is about.
Additionally, open tagging is absolutely a disincentive to group and be social with others. If people can just piggyback on content that someone else is doing they have that much more reason to not bother with other people, violating another core value of this game.
I disagree entirely.
From my personal experience, I am far more socially engaged in MMOs with open-tagging than I am in MMOs without. I'll happily help out people I see in need and more than willing to share space with others in a zone. The overall experience is far more positive as well.
I honestly don't care one bit if someone comes in at the end to get a tag on a mob I helped kill. It doesn't affect me at all, and I'm happy they got the chance to kill it. I like my gaming to be positive and friendly, not cut-throat and nasty and rife with kill-stealing.
You're saying that you want mobs to drop their loot for every group that touched it?