Hey there, I know there's a few threads about spells and abilities, but I have yet to see anything talking about this particular idea! :)
Would it not be neat if spells and abilities leveled up and grew more powerful the more you actually used them instead of constantly having to buy new spells and abilities that are basically the same thing, just stronger versions? I suppose we could argue that trainers help you get better with certain stats/skills, but what about our characters being able to self-teach themselves? Also, this isn't to say lots of spells and abilities learned/mesmerized at various levels wouldn't be a must (because the more spells and abilities the better) but I always thought it would be neat to see a max level vs another max level compare their spells levels. How much do they use what spell that makes them more powerful than the other player?
Interested in hearing your thoughts! <3
Yes this topic has been discussed but I don't have a certain person's eidetic memory to point to the threads and link them.
My view is that the idea works far better in theory than in practice. Casting firebolt at trash mobs thousands of times to improve its strength or jumping off a table to damage yourself slightly and then casting heal thousands of times to improve its strength is not at all fun. Been there - done that (in Elder Scrolls single player games) - don't want to do it again.
I have always loved the idea of slapping an efficiency rating to spells. EQ did this (sort of) with the fizzle rates in early spell use. I would really love to see some more thought into this - but NOT if it means a major delay in releasing the title.
Basically, early spell use of a new spell would result in mostly fizzles and a low efficiency rate. So let's say the Spell is "Magic Dart". A level one spell, the use of it will almost certainly fail the first few times you try to use it. But eventually you get to the point where you deal a single point of damage on a fairly reliable cast. Continue to use it and you do a little more damage, again, adjusting your reliability based over use/time. By the time you get to learning Magic Dart II you are a master with MAgic Dart I. Every cast hits and hits for maximum damage. Once you Learn Magic Dart II - it does NOT reset. You already have the basics for Magic Dart. Instead it continues to scale up. However, Magic Dart II does not affect your use of the new spell "Magic Cloud". You will have to start out a a much lower efficiency on that spell as it is nothing like Magic Dart. Also, now that you have Magic Dart II, your use of Magic Dart I might actually produce a limited amount of bonus damage, depending on the circumstances (using it againt lower level mobs, etc.).
I would also like to see a decay system. What this means is that let's say you used Magic Dart all the time and eventually, by the time you get to Magic Dart II your efficiency is about 98%. But let's also say that at this point you decide to use your mana on a totally different type of spell - something like Magic Cloud. You do this so muich so that you don't evern bother with Magic Dart anymore. So your efficiency with the Magic Dart Class of spell starts to slip. It drops to 97 - then 96 - and so on. But there should be a maximum point at which it will drop - say 85%. Eventually you hit another level and now you have access to Magic Dart III. But since you did not keep your efficiency up since stopping it's use for Magic Cloud, now you are going to have to grow your efficiency a bit more to get the maximum benefit.
Porygon said:As was mentioned earlier. All this will do is create a system where people sit in town and spam their spells to level them up. Whether it's based on str ot efficiency, this will just be abused.
It doesn't have to be that way though, by tieing level ups to qualifying targets. IE can't use a grey mob to practice, it must be used on a mob that earns xp to the player for the skill-ups to rise.
Why not just tie a spell's power directly to your casting skill for that spell school?
If you are high level and have never worked on a spell school, then start wanting to use it. Your spells will be very weak. Or say you are buffing a low level player, but only buffs up to level XX work on the player. Your skill still goes up as you level and it would allow that low level buff to continue getting more powerful as time goes on.
Fulton said:It doesn't have to be that way though, by tieing level ups to qualifying targets. IE can't use a grey mob to practice, it must be used on a mob that earns xp to the player for the skill-ups to rise.
So instead you go out and drone-spam a spell on a mob... yeah, not exactly the most engaging thing we could do with our time. XD
ESO does this feature decently. Class skills level up simply by being on your action bar whenever you do something (anything) that would yield XP. Weapon and armor skill lines level up based on if you have it equipped (e.g. to level up light armor skill line, you need at least one piece of light armor equipped). The different guild skill lines (i.e. fighters guild, mages guild, thieves, etc), it depends. I think mages guild levels up based on lore books you find? Fighters guild skill lines level up by killing undead/daedra. Anyway, it's variable enough that it doesn't feel grindy, especially since it's basically stuff you're doing anyway by playing the game - you don't have to just go out and sit in a spot and kill a mob over and over and over and over again.
One thing historically done in games that use a skill-up system for abilities is to limit the skill range based on level.
So for example at level 5 your skill in conjuration or with swords cannot go over 50.
Using a skill is still relevant but there isnt a huge incentive to spam the skill endlessly as soon as you hit level 5 - it will go up soon enough on its own and having it go from 40 to 50 isn't game changing enough to be worth too much boredom.
Naunet said:Fulton said:It doesn't have to be that way though, by tieing level ups to qualifying targets. IE can't use a grey mob to practice, it must be used on a mob that earns xp to the player for the skill-ups to rise.So instead you go out and drone-spam a spell on a mob... yeah, not exactly the most engaging thing we could do with our time. XD
ESO does this feature decently. Class skills level up simply by being on your action bar whenever you do something (anything) that would yield XP. Weapon and armor skill lines level up based on if you have it equipped (e.g. to level up light armor skill line, you need at least one piece of light armor equipped). The different guild skill lines (i.e. fighters guild, mages guild, thieves, etc), it depends. I think mages guild levels up based on lore books you find? Fighters guild skill lines level up by killing undead/daedra. Anyway, it's variable enough that it doesn't feel grindy, especially since it's basically stuff you're doing anyway by playing the game - you don't have to just go out and sit in a spot and kill a mob over and over and over and over again.
Not sure how what you wrote is different than what I wrote, just not in so many words. :)
Your suggestion is already been used in other games.
It could work based on skillpoints. So the more skilled you get in 'pyrotechnics', the more damage your firebolt will do. So it could be a matter of walking through skilltrees and adding points or just skilling up by amount of times used.
Other more general stats might influence that spell as well. But I don't think that's what you wanted to talk about.
Fulton said:Not sure how what you wrote is different than what I wrote, just not in so many words. :)
Perhaps I misunderstood. To me it sounded like you were suggesting leveling skills by just using the skill repeatedly on mobs that grant XP. That's different from ESO, where the ability simply needs to be on your action bar, and ANYTHING you do that gives XP (not just killing a mob) levels that skill. There are also other skill lines (like weapon type, armor class, guilds, etc) that are leveled in a variety of ways.
I'm just not keen on the thought of having to spam one skill over and over and over just to level it up.
Fulton said:Porygon said:As was mentioned earlier. All this will do is create a system where people sit in town and spam their spells to level them up. Whether it's based on str ot efficiency, this will just be abused.
It doesn't have to be that way though, by tieing level ups to qualifying targets. IE can't use a grey mob to practice, it must be used on a mob that earns xp to the player for the skill-ups to rise.
No, I know. But what this will do. Is create a game where i invite a wizard... maybe his best spell is ice comet, but his conflagration spell low level. So he spams that in my group because he needs to level it.
Idk, I just dont see a way that this doesnt end up being cheesed just for the sake of leveling the spells.
Wouldn't the best way to have abilities scale up as you level up to actually tie the damage or effect of the ability into your stats. For example players can have a stat called 'Power'. Your primary stat, such as Strength or Intellect or Dexterity would directly increase your 'Power'. Items could also have +Power on them as a stat.
Your Damaging ability would then say 'Causes 5 damage + 25% of your Power'. Thus as you scale up your Power, your abilities scale higher and higher damage as well. No need for the spell to level up. Simply level yourself up and increase your stats, and your spell gets stronger. So at level 5 with only 4 Power your ability would be doing 6 Damage. At level 50 you might have 200 Power so now your spell is doing 55 Damage with the same spell.
When you find those rare spells out in the world, they could have a higher % of your Power. So Fireball may only be 25% of your Power scaling. But Sun Flare spell has 30% of your Power scaling. Those Uber crazy legendary spells could then have 35% scaling. Of course it would be up to balance team to decide what the %'s would be and how much difference between the common and the uncommon spells should be.
They could even split it up into 'Attack Power' for physical attacks and 'Spell Power' for spell based attacks. The Pure classes might only worry about one and not the other, but maybe a hybrid class (like Paladin) would have some abilities that use physical attacks and use 'Attack Power' scaling and also have spells that use 'Spell Power' scaling. Of course this might just complicate things and VR might not want to force hybrids to mix and match items or decide which is more important to them: Attack or Spell power.
Even debuffs could tie into this Power. For example a 'Slow' type spell could say 'Reduces targets attack speed by 5% + (1% of Power)'. Thus our high level player with 200 power could Slow by 7% instead of the base 5%. Maybe could even effect a duration... Like a Stun could say 'Stuns target for 1 + (1% of Power) seconds. So at low level you may only get the 1 second stun, but at high level you might get a 3 second stun out of the same spell.
This could work for buffs too such as Haste or whatever. Of course not all buffs might scale like this... maybe they want some effects like Strength buff to always be a set value and never scale.
They could even use this for passive effects as well. Such as a 'Multi-Attack' skill could say 'You have a 5 + (15% of your Power)% chance to Double Attack and 1 + (5% of your Power)% chance to Triple Attack'. So at low level you have the base 5% chance to get double and 1% chance for Triple attacks. While our pretend character with 200 Power would have 35% chance to get a second attack and a 11% chance to get a third attack when he swings.'
This system also fixes the problem that EQ1 had where some classes were more dependant on gear than others. Warriors were usless in no armor, yet a wizard with a really awesome nuke spell could still do crazy damage while fighting naked. But with this scaling system, the naked wizard is only doing newb damage while naked because his Power is effectively nothing and so his spells are doing base damage.
Anyway... just my thoughts.
GoofyWarriorGuy said:Wouldn't the best way to have abilities scale up as you level up to actually tie the damage or effect of the ability into your stats. For example players can have a stat called 'Power'. Your primary stat, such as Strength or Intellect or Dexterity would directly increase your 'Power'. Items could also have +Power on them as a stat.
I think SWTOR had "power" as a stat, that did exactly what you just explained. It was on all gear and increased most abilities effectiveness.
Porygon said:Fulton said:Porygon said:As was mentioned earlier. All this will do is create a system where people sit in town and spam their spells to level them up. Whether it's based on str ot efficiency, this will just be abused.
It doesn't have to be that way though, by tieing level ups to qualifying targets. IE can't use a grey mob to practice, it must be used on a mob that earns xp to the player for the skill-ups to rise.
No, I know. But what this will do. Is create a game where i invite a wizard... maybe his best spell is ice comet, but his conflagration spell low level. So he spams that in my group because he needs to level it.
Idk, I just dont see a way that this doesnt end up being cheesed just for the sake of leveling the spells.
I can see that, but I recall in EQ1 there was a cap of 5 skill points per level, so unless you neglected a skill up until that point, there was little to no reason to force it to rise.
Fulton said:I can see that, but I recall in EQ1 there was a cap of 5 skill points per level, so unless you neglected a skill up until that point, there was little to no reason to force it to rise.
Yes but this didn't actually affect power. Just chance to successfully cast your spells, and there were archetypes. A system like that I'm fine with, but If every spell needed to be leveled individually, rhats where I see the problems.
No thank you. Understand the appeal from a realism point of view, but for me it's a completely unnecessary level of complexity. Improving your skills is simulated by leveling and getting more stats. That's enough IMO. I don't want to feel forced to "practice" casting niche spells/abilities to level them up (i.e. spam them for no reason), and that would be the main consequence of something like this. I find that completely unappealing and counter-intuitive.
Raidan said: EQ did this by having the skill increases per level + choosing a spell school specialization (alteration/evocation etc.) - I’d still prefer mastery over a spell school versus specific spells.
This only increased the spells efficiency. Not power. Which is why it didn't cause alot of issues.