I see two essentially unrelated topics being discussed. Each of them quite relevant to the question that was asked, of course.
One of them deals with the extent to which encounters are scripted - most important for "boss" fights.
One of them deals more with "trash" mobs either in landscape or in dungeons - where the number of mobs, the number of linked mobs, the distance between mobs, the extent of "bring a friend" mechanics, the difficulty of fighting a mob of your level versus one a level or two higher or lower, etc, determines the "challenge" of the content.
The two topics can be related - trash mobs can be given complex semi-random routines to follow in combat - but I think the people discussing scripts are mostly thinking of bosses not trash.
oneADseven said:While it's true that some players may create a "standard" for their XP groups based on being able to pull off chains, I always viewed this as a good thing. If you wanted to get into a group focused on XP, you would generally build a composition that offered sustained damage, good regen, situational burst, great pulling, and overall flexibility.
What's funny... is that people already did this in eq1 without the bonus reward. If I knew I was able to kill 23 mobs from where my camp was before the 1st respawns... and then someone new joins and all the sudden were only killing 17... we know what the issue is. We either lost a buff. Or the dps decreased.
This is also why you didnt see too many healing classes or tank classes invited as dps. Because players were already "discriminating" in lieu of being more efficient. Which is why I think it's funny when people post that they are nervous about people acting elitist... those practices began back in eq1 very early on.
I know challenge still exists, as I can challenge myself right now in the MMOs I play by hitting up a P15 dungeon or a raid boss I don't yet outgear in WildStar. No amount of heroism or gear will save you from a mistake in a P15.
Some others have brought up the "mystique" of early MMOs, and I honestly believe the hunt for replicating that feeling I had when figuring out my very first MMO will never succeed. It's just not possible. We all go into MMOs with background knowledge we've acquired from other games. That background knowledge helps us navigate the new systems and designs of the new MMO - either in finding similarities or being able to recognize differences. Chasing that feeling will only ever end in disappointment.
KrasnayaSolnza said: Naunet, I can say with confidence that you are wrong. You may be right about the fact that YOU will never feel that feeling again but since EQ I played a bunch of MMOs and felt that again with WoW. It is not only possible to replicate that new game mystery it is plausible. Mystery is about immersion and some games are better at it than others. I have max level toons on so many mmorpgs and I can say that only EQ and WoW had me enthrall. Single player game like the Witcher also manages that feeling. So yeah it depends on the game but it is possible.
I got it when I tried EQ Project 99 a couple of years ago. Played that for many months and had a great time until I hit the same barriers to enjoyments I had in original EQ, but that's nother story.
You absolutely can get back those old feelings simply by playing a game that has those old values. For me it was about challenge and danger which every MMO after EQ bit-by-bit removed.
They became so as it was very hard to die without ignoring and skipping a mass of content intended for your level even when you soloed.
Pantheon is absolutely going to bring that back. The whole mystery of "is this group going to get wiped when we enter this area" is back. When it was just you and some guaranteed-level-appropriate content, that was gone.
Sure, if you play with the same guildies every time and they've done the same raid 20 times it will lose mystery, but it will have a whole lot more 90% of the time than current MMOs.
KrasnayaSolnza said: Naunet, I can say with confidence that you are wrong. You may be right about the fact that YOU will never feel that feeling again but since EQ I played a bunch of MMOs and felt that again with WoW. It is not only possible to replicate that new game mystery it is plausible. Mystery is about immersion and some games are better at it than others. I have max level toons on so many mmorpgs and I can say that only EQ and WoW had me enthrall. Single player game like the Witcher also manages that feeling. So yeah it depends on the game but it is possible.
I dunno if I can agree. The experience I had in my first MMO (and this is probably true for many people) really hinged on everything being new. I'd never really been much of a video game person until my roommates in undergrad introduced me to "this cool new game we're playing and I think you'd like because you can be a zombie!" I really had no concept for what it was, and learning the systems was a classic fumbling in the dark experience (though assisted by my roommates). Nowadays, my approach to new MMOs is couched in my experience. I approach the building of my character and my use of the game systems in a much more focused way. So in a sense, it is impossible to replicate one's first MMO. It is physically impossible to go into future MMOs lacking the knowledge you've built from others, and that will inevitably color the way you approach the game and your ability to learn it.
That said I can definitely get a sense of wonder and joy and immersion when exploring a new world, so bits and pieces of that "first MMO experience" can definitely stick around.
Porygon said:Ziegfried said:Everyone else in this thread has mostly said what I would have said, but yes I consider the challenge to be almost non existant in modern MMORPGs. I don't think the challenge should begin at max level, and that is the model most of the developers today are using.
How would you go about making challenges while leveling?
Furthermore, if a majority of a characters time is spent at max level, why would you not put a focus on making that area challenging?
Any challenges made for below max level either get trivialized by being a higher level, or become obsolete by passing a level requirement.
Well first of all you gotta make the mobs actually be able to kill the players, in other words not hit like wet noodles. So far most MMOs I've seen lately have mobs hitting like wet noodles unless you are doing max level content. There should be some mobs that can rip up a group of players real quick if they aren't interrupted, kited, slowed, etc. Your post is a classic example of end game mentality and that's a pity...I am glad VR seems to have a different approach. Any challenges made below max level get trivialized hmmm sounds familiar...like when a new raid gets released the old raids are obsolete perhaps? Or when a new expac comes out all the old content is obsolete? Why have levels at all why not start the game at max then?
How are players supposed to learn their class, how are they supposed to learn any kind of group dynamics or synergy if everything they come across before max level is mind numbingly easy?
Kilsin said:Challenge - Have today's MMORPGs watered down the genre too far, has the challenge been removed beyond repair, and how do you think this will effect MMORPGs in the future? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters
Yes - today's MMORPG's have watered down the genre too far. No - it's not beyond repair. What it really needed, and I think I speak for just about everyone when I type this, is someone with the balls to make a game for a specific community, rather than pander to the masses.
Pantheon have created an idea or movement which could revolutionise game design. They are, in my opinion, pioneers. If they succeed I expect more game designers to follow suit.
Blood.
Ziegfried said:Well first of all you gotta make the mobs actually be able to kill the players, in other words not hit like wet noodles. So far most MMOs I've seen lately have mobs hitting like wet noodles unless you are doing max level content. There should be some mobs that can rip up a group of players real quick if they aren't interrupted, kited, slowed, etc.
Ziegfried nailed down the bottom line in the above quote. In EQ1, death lurked around every corner. All it took was more than one mob coming at you at one time. Enchanters made things easy by getting rid of multiple enemies and letting 6 people gang up on one mob. But really, multiple mobs and no CC meant run or die, if the mobs were worth experience anyway. Even for the soloing king necros, enchanters and bards, a bad pull and one or two resists meant you die. And that was all mobs in the whole game.
Take the n00b starting areas. In NQeynos, WFP, Steamfont (for sure, argh), Innothule and Feerot (even bigger argh), getting killed at level 1-2 happened all the freaking time. Kliknik beetles with social aggro, lizardman shaman with freaking blind, random level 10 mobs walking right through your level 1-4 farming spot, etc. EQ1 stepped on your neck from the opening bell and never let up. As you got higher level, the game got harder and less forgiving, even though you had more spells, better weapons/armor, etc.
My only disagreement with the above quote is "there should be some mobs" because it should be MOST mobs.
Venjenz said:Ziegfried said:Well first of all you gotta make the mobs actually be able to kill the players, in other words not hit like wet noodles. So far most MMOs I've seen lately have mobs hitting like wet noodles unless you are doing max level content. There should be some mobs that can rip up a group of players real quick if they aren't interrupted, kited, slowed, etc.
Ziegfried nailed down the bottom line in the above quote. In EQ1, death lurked around every corner. All it took was more than one mob coming at you at one time. Enchanters made things easy by getting rid of multiple enemies and letting 6 people gang up on one mob. But really, multiple mobs and no CC meant run or die, if the mobs were worth experience anyway. Even for the soloing king necros, enchanters and bards, a bad pull and one or two resists meant you die. And that was all mobs in the whole game.
Take the n00b starting areas. In NQeynos, WFP, Steamfont (for sure, argh), Innothule and Feerot (even bigger argh), getting killed at level 1-2 happened all the freaking time. Kliknik beetles with social aggro, lizardman shaman with freaking blind, random level 10 mobs walking right through your level 1-4 farming spot, etc. EQ1 stepped on your neck from the opening bell and never let up. As you got higher level, the game got harder and less forgiving, even though you had more spells, better weapons/armor, etc.
My only disagreement with the above quote is "there should be some mobs" because it should be MOST mobs.
Agree with this 100%, i hate playing a game i can litterally play for like a week and basically say yep been there done that already, need to get to max level in wow, woot ok that took 2 days, so lame.
Venjenz said:Ziegfried said:Well first of all you gotta make the mobs actually be able to kill the players, in other words not hit like wet noodles. So far most MMOs I've seen lately have mobs hitting like wet noodles unless you are doing max level content. There should be some mobs that can rip up a group of players real quick if they aren't interrupted, kited, slowed, etc.
Ziegfried nailed down the bottom line in the above quote.
My only issue with this, is that it's only relavant to newbies to the genre. I went back and leveled on a true classic wow server. And played like I did on live servers and died so many times. Once I realized that I wasn't as strong as I remembered being... I stopped pulling 3 mobs at a time and didnt die again for 45 levels.
This happens for EQ as well, once you understand the major mechanics of the game, pulling mobs isn't fearful. If you make single mobs too strong you completely ruin the solo aspect of the game, which I understand is not the core of the game... but you have to provide players a way to solo even if its inefficient.
The knowledge I have of how mmos work will allow me to prevent myself from dying to a degree that eliminates the fear and challenge. I dont really see any game that is going to ever be able to provide a challenge leveling up again. (Other than like, hardcore diablo, but that's because of the vast penalty of you die).
The challenge in my eyes comes from max level dungeons, and raiding and I dont think you'll ever be able to shift that. So much time is spent at max level by most players that you basically are required to focus on that aspect the game sooner or later.
Porygon said:If you make single mobs too strong you completely ruin the solo aspect of the game, which I understand is not the core of the game... but you have to provide players a way to solo even if its inefficient.
.
There's a simple solution to this, make the dungeon mobs or simply the mobs that are meant to grped against have this increase of difficulty, that way if you want to solo you go to other areas that are meant to be soloed, and make them difficult but from a soloing aspect and knock down the amount exp you get from them so people wouldnt want to grp against them cept maybe 2 man for saftey if anything, and have the grp targets hit the difficulty that the people want, plus we alrdy know that certain mobs are going to be naturally harder by their skill sets anyway, so lets keep the difficulty bar up high, and hope we can keep it there.
Also i believe not not every Namer, Boss, Or whatever should be able to be defeated by every player at their current level, it should take a certain amount of skill or trial and error til you get it right to defeat him, and if you dont have the skill or the time to sink into him to get it right than you don't deserve the loot that he is dropping, but this is just me talking and knowing maybe their might be a monster in a dungeon that at first could have my number.
I see a lot of comments about how the challenge is gone due to youtube and gaming strat sites. To those people I say: why not join a no-spoiler guild? I run no-spoiler raids. It really does make a difference.
For those who have no idea what I'm talking about: essentially, everyone in the raid agrees to not look up any strategies online, or if they must, then they are not allowed to speak or otherwise signal on raids.
It means we fail more than other guilds, and progress slower than some. But you'd be surprised--good raiders, good players, can solve the puzzles on their own in a surprising amount of time. In VG we weren't a top tier guild, but we were right on their heels.
It also means every victory is worth that much more, and to every player--not just the leader who memorized someone else's strat. And, in rare moments, we discover new ways of doing things not previously posted/linked/made into a tutorial video.
Feel free to PM me with questions, but we can't be the only guild doing this.
Porygon said:Venjenz said:Ziegfried said:Well first of all you gotta make the mobs actually be able to kill the players, in other words not hit like wet noodles. So far most MMOs I've seen lately have mobs hitting like wet noodles unless you are doing max level content. There should be some mobs that can rip up a group of players real quick if they aren't interrupted, kited, slowed, etc.
Ziegfried nailed down the bottom line in the above quote.
My only issue with this, is that it's only relavant to newbies to the genre. I went back and leveled on a true classic wow server. And played like I did on live servers and died so many times. Once I realized that I wasn't as strong as I remembered being... I stopped pulling 3 mobs at a time and didnt die again for 45 levels.
This happens for EQ as well, once you understand the major mechanics of the game, pulling mobs isn't fearful. If you make single mobs too strong you completely ruin the solo aspect of the game, which I understand is not the core of the game... but you have to provide players a way to solo even if its inefficient.
The knowledge I have of how mmos work will allow me to prevent myself from dying to a degree that eliminates the fear and challenge. I dont really see any game that is going to ever be able to provide a challenge leveling up again. (Other than like, hardcore diablo, but that's because of the vast penalty of you die).
The challenge in my eyes comes from max level dungeons, and raiding and I dont think you'll ever be able to shift that. So much time is spent at max level by most players that you basically are required to focus on that aspect the game sooner or later.
If you don't see the difference between leveling in WoW and leveling in EQ and you find the leveling process easy/boring I guess you are gonna be rushing to max level. The vast majority of MMORPG players do not raid however, most players do NOT spend the majority of their time at max level. Take a look at the statistics that are available for various MMOs you'd be surprised how many players don't even ever hit max level let alone do raiding. Every single player will experience the content in the starting zones but the farther you go the more players fall off. That's why I think you are minimizing the importance of the leveling content. Considering Pantheon is catering to a more experienced audience it is possible there will be more max level players, more raiders, etc. but I doubt it will be the majority just by looking at all the previous MMORPGs demographics.
I agree with Ziegfried - in fact by pure coincidence I just said much the same thing discussing a different point in the thread on character slots.
In all games that I know the hard core "endgame" players tend (with many exceptions) to assume that most players are like them - they just aren't skilled enough or haven't put in the time to get to the hardest content yet. The view that someone may not *care* about getting to level cap and may not *care* about getting the best gear and just may want to enjoy the world and if they never get past 30 of 50 levels so what is just so *alien* to them they legitimately cannot wrap their minds around the concept.
I have been married (for almost 50 years) to someone that is a casual player by most definitions - plays for an hour or two perhaps just to enjoy that hour or two without worrying about how fast the character is progressing. There are quite a few people like that; I often see them in guilds and groups.
I am quite definitely not a casual player - I spend a lot of time playing. But I consider level-cap a good time to think of "alts" - I simply find the character development phase of the game more fun than the grind forever to get one more piece of marginally better gear phase. There are more than a few people like me as well.
I suspect that being more experienced than average, Pantheon players will spend *more* time enjoying the world and *less* time at level-cap than typical in other games. Most of us have been at level cap in other games - some of us dozens or hundreds of times. We don't necessarily get the same thrill of accomplishment we did the first time many years ago, and we understand better the limitations on what can be done at level cap to keep it fun.
Yes many of us will race to level cap because they like to raid or because they want to help others or because a high level can support a growing family of alts and that is fine. I may do it myself for the last reason I mentioned. But many of us will spend more time stopping and sniffing the roses, at risk of the occasional bee bite or even having a hive of bees trained onto us.
Ziegfried said:If you don't see the difference between leveling in WoW and leveling in EQ and you find the leveling process easy/boring I guess you are gonna be rushing to max level. The vast majority of MMORPG players do not raid however, most players do NOT spend the majority of their time at max level. Take a look at the statistics that are available for various MMOs you'd be surprised how many players don't even ever hit max level let alone do raiding. Every single player will experience the content in the starting zones but the farther you go the more players fall off. That's why I think you are minimizing the importance of the leveling content. Considering Pantheon is catering to a more experienced audience it is possible there will be more max level players, more raiders, etc. but I doubt it will be the majority just by looking at all the previous MMORPGs demographics.
The point wasn't to make a comparison from eq to wow, it was that once a gamer understands the mechanics of a game (which many of us will by level 5) the process of leveling loses all challenge. You're just rinsing AND repeating every level.
And if you spend x amount of time creating true challenges during leveling... you're essentially creating content that is going to become obsolete at a certain point in every characters career. At some point in time, the majority of your player base will be at max level. Which means that is where your dev team needs to focus. Can you make the leveling process long? Yes of course. But I don't see how you can truly spend time making it "challenging" considering 6 months after launch most people won't be dealing with it (random time estimate, make it a year and the same concept is valid)
Porygon this line of thought baffles me. All content in MMORPGs eventually becomes obsolete including raids, so why use that as an argument? You are underestimating the number of players who never reach max level. And let's say for the sake of argument every single player hits max level in 6 months...the content was used for 6 months. That is not a bad lifespan...and we aren't even mentioning players who make alts. On the topic of challenge and game mechanics there should be content below max level that pushes groups to their limit, there are many ways to go about this. Entering certain dungeons could put debuffs on you or the mobs may be resistant/immune to various status effects/weapons/spells. The dungeons will hopefully be mazes easy to get lost in and will have traps in them. I want to see some classic D&D stuff!
So what makes the endgame dungeons and raids challenging? The gear treadmill is just the same as the level treadmill you know...once you got your guild fully geared that dragon dies a lot easier. And mechanics are mechanics...the real challenge of raids is keeping a consistent roster and coordinating the larger number of players. But when you strip it all away isn't raiding also "rinse and repeat"?
I mostly agree with Ziegfried and am horrified at the thought that the dev team needs to focus on maximum level. Meaning I *really* disagree.
If we all race to level cap and Pantheon becomes a game of raiding and dailies there is a technical word that describes the result. Failure. This is not what Pantheon aims at; it is not what we all talk about when we discusss how to make things slower and make the game focus on *enjoying* the world not racing to *get through* the world.
Raiding is a nice extra but it is not what makes a game old school.
Raiding is a nice extra but it is not what makes a game different from WoW amd EQ2 and Rift, and SWTOR and .....
No, no a thousand times no. Let us not see the golden dream that is Pantheon sacrificed upon the altar of "endgame".
Ideally, having a variety of fun/interesting/challening things to do as you level will create a situation where just being max level is not a necessity to access a lot of content. Yea, the 'big bad' might be waiting for you and your friends at level cap, but why rush there when you can have interesting stories, 'sightseeing', and enjoyable content on the way.
I think the idea that a leveling experience is boring/inconsequential is largely a symptom of devs focusing all their effort elsewhere, and is not inherently the case. I'd personally relish the opportunity to not feel compelled to speed-grind my way to level cap, and just take it slow, enjoy being a tourist in Terminus, and fleshing out my Codex and experiencing content across as many zones as possible before I'm out of the level range for it.
'But no one is forcing you to level fast' - while true, creating a situation where people are compelled to do so is usually the case by making the content of the most depth/value at the end of the treadmill.
dorotea said:I mostly agree with Ziegfried and am horrified at the thought that the dev team needs to focus on maximum level. Meaning I *really* disagree.
If we all race to level cap and Pantheon becomes a game of raiding and dailies there is a technical word that describes the result. Failure. This is not what Pantheon aims at; it is not what we all talk about when we discusss how to make things slower and make the game focus on *enjoying* the world not racing to *get through* the world.
Raiding is a nice extra but it is not what makes a game old school.
Raiding is a nice extra but it is not what makes a game different from WoW amd EQ2 and Rift, and SWTOR and .....
No, no a thousand times no. Let us not see the golden dream that is Pantheon sacrificed upon the altar of "endgame".
What if 50% of the players race to level cap and want to raid. How do you determine where you design the game...
Eventually at some point the majority of your playerbase will have a character at (or very close to) max level. You need to make sure these players have meaningful content to do or they will leave.
All games eventually need to design for endgame.
Porygon said:dorotea said:I mostly agree with Ziegfried and am horrified at the thought that the dev team needs to focus on maximum level. Meaning I *really* disagree.
If we all race to level cap and Pantheon becomes a game of raiding and dailies there is a technical word that describes the result. Failure. This is not what Pantheon aims at; it is not what we all talk about when we discusss how to make things slower and make the game focus on *enjoying* the world not racing to *get through* the world.
Raiding is a nice extra but it is not what makes a game old school.
Raiding is a nice extra but it is not what makes a game different from WoW amd EQ2 and Rift, and SWTOR and .....
No, no a thousand times no. Let us not see the golden dream that is Pantheon sacrificed upon the altar of "endgame".
What if 50% of the players race to level cap and want to raid. How do you determine where you design the game...
Eventually at some point the majority of your playerbase will have a character at (or very close to) max level. You need to make sure these players have meaningful content to do or they will leave.
All games eventually need to design for endgame.
Brad has given statistics on it. It's more like 15% Raid. I think it safe to assume it's even less that actually race to get there.
Porygon I agree that over time characters will gain levels and many will hit level-cap. Your argument isn't a silly one but I think there are a few *important* countervailing considerations.
1. How you design a game affects player behavior. In Rift or EQ2 where you could hit level cap in a day of *course* a large percentage were at level cap. That doesn't mean this will happen in a *good* game.
2. If your plan is to encourage people to explore and see the world - but a lot of people start accumulating at level cap adding raids isn't the way to go. The way to go is raise the level cap a bit, open up new zones at the higher levels and people can continue to explore the world. Raids as a primary focus of the game simply aren't Pantheon any more than soloing as a primary focus of the game is.
Your may spend a lot of time raiding now, and want more of that than Pantheon intends to give. I may spend a lot of time soloing now, and want more of that than Pantheon intends to give. Looks like we both will have to accept getting a game that gives us 90% of what we may consider ideal and just suck it up on the other 10%.
Zorkon said:
Brad has given statistics on it. It's more like 15% Raid. I think it safe to assume it's even less that actually race to get there.
It is actually a bit more complex than that because the raiding (or end content) percentage of players is not constant but varies with time .
During at least 2-3 years in EQ , it was around 5 % (the statistics exist) . Today, 19 years later, the TLP EQ servers start at around 10 % raiders with Classics but after a few months, latest with Velious release, it is already above 50 % . The mechanism is simple - non raiding people leave the game and those who stay are at or near max level so that only raiding is left . And as there is no flux of new players, there are no low level groups and as there are no low level groups it accelerates the departure of people who are not max level . Finally after some time only raiding guilds are left and the percentage is near to 100 % .
So the percentage mentionned by Brad will only be true during a few months (6 ? 12 ? ) but as the non raiding/casual people will leave slowly but surely , it will mechanically increase the percentage of raiders . This has of course nothing to do with any sort of "challenge" . Like someone rightly said above , raids are not more "challenging" than levelling and vice versa . Pantheon will surely make the mobs more difficult (more HP, harder hitting, debuffing and stunning) but that will not make them "challenging" it will just take more time to kill them and one will have to manage mana and aggro a bit more carefully than in your standard modern MMORPG . No rocket science in there .
Even after all these posts (I read them all) , nobody was still able to give a single argument what he means by "challenging" in an MMORPG . The only argument that was coming over and over was that "challenging" actually means "needing more time" .
However spending more time on some routine non challenging activity doesn't make it any less some routine non challenging activity :)