In other words, will there be the potenial to start an elitist mentality similar to how gear scores worked in WoW? I'm not saying this will happen in this community, but players seem to somehow find ways to alienate other players and this could be that thing, but obviously I'm not sure. I'm excited for this game and would hate to see something as simple as this, ruin the group vibe.
Has anyone brought this up before? I'm sorry if it has been asked, I couldn't find anything and... I'm searched out.
I would love to hear other thoughts on this.
Thanks,
Bronsun
I think the dev team will do a good job at balancing skills that can be upgraded or morphed into stronger versions. If you look at the examples we've had so far you can see that the basic version of the epic skill is still a desirable skill, and the upgraded version only adds an extra level to that skill I don't think it will be so much better that people will shun players that have not managed to get the epic version of their skill yet.
I imagine the epic versions will just be more of a quality of life improvement for the player like the Cleric generating Celestial Power while meditating, the cleric should still be able to generate enough Celestial Power without the epic version but may have to pay a little more attention to her expenditure.
I find it likely in the same way better gear (with or without gear score) could do it. In other words, I'm sure a lot of people will use their in game achievements as status symbols and lord it over people but in the end I think something like that is mostly up to the integrity and character of the individual players, case by case.
Sometimes discrimination by in game power is valid too, if you know there's a particularily hard encounter and you know you need x amount of raw power, you're probably not going to bring somebody who doesn't meet those requirements. That raw power might be a certain minimum level, the stats on ones gear or indeed certain abilities.
Anything that directly influences the power or capability of a character in combat can and will be used as a "bar" by very competitive guilds. It's no different from guilds having a level minimum, or an AA minimum, or a gear score minimum, or what you see in many games these days where people say things like "must know the fights" when recruiting for their teams.
I don't agree with how far people sometimes go with this sort of thing (though as Spluffen mentioned sometimes it's just a reflection of what's needed for a fight) but there are plenty of people out there who simply accept that they have to prove they're strong enough in order to get into a group/guild/raid, and even feel that it's totally appropriate. So it will happen.
I think the best way for us as a community to keep this from becoming something that causes problems in the game is just to insure that the game doesn't skew heavily towards any particular playstyle. There should be content for the hardcore, competitive guilds to strive after, but there should also be content for the more inclusive, community-focused guilds to enjoy. Whether we're talking about grouping or raiding, if the content only rewards one side or the other, then people will feel forced to play in a way that they don't enjoy.
I'll use my guild and oneADseven's guild as examples (because I know he'll be ok with me saying this). Shadowfire (my guild) is big on inclusion and letting folks play at their own pace. We'll field a raid team, but we won't really be competitive about it, and for us it will be more about "hey let's all go do something fun and exciting together". In fact, we'll likely purposely limit how fast we go with raiding to insure we don't leave too many of our members behind. By contrast, TDC (oneADseven's guild) will absolutely have a raid team, and it's safe to say that they'll try hard to be as competitive as they can be, without compromising the other ideals that are important to them. In this situation, I could totally see TDC having a higher requirement to join their raid team than Shadowfire would for ours. But, at the same time, it's quite likely that they'd be clearing many of the raid fights before we ever got to them.
So as long as the game itself supports a span of playstyles, from the ultra-competitive guilds to the casual/social guilds, and everything in between, things should work out. Yeah, you'll still see people shouting frome time to time about how someone has to have their Epic X to join a raid - but there should be options for people who don't have that yet as well.
I don't know if it's possible to add unlockable meaningfull features that don't trigger a difference between "the player that has none, and the player that has them". It's the risk of making such features, as they will obviously end up mandatory, and be considered the norm afterwards.
Such is the price for character improvment, as stated by spluffed, or for the nostalgia of EQ where AA's were a "number" to account for a player's efficiency.
In old school MMO's, you started as a nobody, with no special destiny, with no special skills, and go as far as your skill, dedication, social ties, and personal decisions carried you, for good or bad. You could become a hero to one noob, a good friend to a handful, or a server legend. Or you could be a nobody. More likely, you fell somewhere in between - much like the real world.
In some modern MMORPG's, you could be told you're special and a hero from day 1. Everything you do is of importance to the world, or so you're told. You slay tons of filthy monsters with every blow without blinking. You gather amazing gear just by logging in and doing the bare minimum. It's pretty much a dopamine machine based upon a sense of accomplishment. No matter how much you really accomplish. There isn't even social interaction in many MMO's, your fellow players with whom you're randomly assigned by matchmaking software while sitting in the same spot you logged out, may as well be NPC bots for all the interaction that happens.
So this takes us to "epic" abilities. My view could just as easily apply to anything with the term "epic" - such as "epic" weapons, armor sets, mounts, etc. So if everyone can get something "epic" with ease, with the bare minimum of effort, then what is the point in making them an "epic" ability? Why not just put them on some merchant for some price? If everyone has an epic, then is it really epic? Not really...I mean, nobody calls clothes from Wal-Mart "epic" (aka, buying an epic spell from a merchant). "Epic" also isn't just something that's longer or has more checklist points than a regular quest. Ie, millions of people have college degrees, it's not really "epic" to get one (aka a longish quest you print off and slowly check off the boxes on". What is really "epic" IRL? Well, it's saving a kid from a burning building, starting a non-profit that eradicates a parasite impacting millions in multiple countries, brokering piece in the middle east, or maybe even your name is Joseph Welch and you stand up to a lying, fearmongering, opportunistic bully that is harming your country.
Some people like starting as a hero and legend, others like to try to become one. If you ask me, you should have to make some sort of "epic" effort to obtain an "epic" ability, spell, item, etc Otherwise, we're all wearing Wal-Mart clothes bragging about our 15th Century Basketweaving degree and wondering why we're not getting a Nobel Prize or such. No, I'm sorry, you're not Nobel material, and even then, of many deserving people, only a handful may get a Nobel. Much like something that is called "epic".
I think that about covers my thoughts on "epic" abilities and my level of concern over them distinguishing unique effort by a player who obtains them.
If Jimmy Carter, Mother Theresa, a Medal of Honor recipient, or even a disabled veteran came around I'd expect a bit of segregation given their accomplishments. I'm not sure that's a bad thing IRL, and I'm not sure it's wrong to have something similar in a game due to in-game achievements.
Even EQ would have certain groups in certain zones later on require things from tanks and healers. I remember often having to look for an 8k tank for later pop zones. The mobs hit so hard anything less would be very inefficient for the group.
Noone felt discouraged by this. Because it was known. And made sense.
I think you'll see similar requirements in this game. But I don't think you'll come close to seeing something like gear score (or the effect of it).
We will see how things look as the design decisions are fleshed out and tested.
A great character in awful gear will drag down a group as fast as an awful character in great gear. I'm talking about the character here not the skill of the player.
So just as a rational non "elitist" group might not want a 2k tank in Porygon's example that same group might not want any class in gear so crappy that the character cannot contribute well.
What I would call "elitist" is limiting group members to those with only top gear not in order to get the job done but to get it done 1n 29 minutes instead of the 30 minutes that an average geared party would take.
The short answer is that given enough time not having your epic tier abilities will put you in a lower tier of power and it is likely that it will become an important bar you must reach. This will be especially true if these epic abilities are increases in functionality and not just a boost in magnitude of something you already do. As others have said though that is exactly what should be expected of anything that adds power to a character.
The real concern to me is not blocking these abilities behind competitive large group encounters. All epic abilities should be achievable through single group content or triggered large group encounters. That does not mean they need to be easy, quick or common to get. Each and every ability could be its own full epic quest with grinds, lucky drops and challenging encounters.
If getting these abilities is restricted to those who can complete competitive raid encounters then it will increasingly create a gulf of ability from those who are hardcore raiders and those who are not, the gear will already be enough of a difference.
Kellie said:I think the dev team will do a good job at balancing skills that can be upgraded or morphed into stronger versions. If you look at the examples we've had so far you can see that the basic version of the epic skill is still a desirable skill, and the upgraded version only adds an extra level to that skill I don't think it will be so much better that people will shun players that have not managed to get the epic version of their skill yet.
I imagine the epic versions will just be more of a quality of life improvement for the player like the Cleric generating Celestial Power while meditating, the cleric should still be able to generate enough Celestial Power without the epic version but may have to pay a little more attention to her expenditure.
I agree with you on this. I know this can be a big discussion. I tend to lean more towards the optimistic approach like you Kellie and I do realize its impossible to stop everyone from barring others as Nephele brings up. People always find a way to create walls, but as long as there aren't too may ways for them to do that,everything will work out fine.
I guess I mainly wanted to bring this up for the devs. A lot to balance in a large game like this and sometimes things get missed or not thought about. Having epic abilities and making them difficult to obtain is part of the design so there will be the have's and have nots just in that alone. As Kellie and Trasak mention it will be in how much more powerful the abilities turn out to be and it is way to early to tell.
Thank you eyeryone for the feedback. You all make great points. :D
-Bronsun
Porygon said:Even EQ would have certain groups in certain zones later on require things from tanks and healers. I remember often having to look for an 8k tank for later pop zones. The mobs hit so hard anything less would be very inefficient for the group.
Noone felt discouraged by this. Because it was known. And made sense.
I think you'll see similar requirements in this game. But I don't think you'll come close to seeing something like gear score (or the effect of it).
This is a good point. I don't see how this is any different than having artifically gated content - and in fact, it's better. It's the epitome of the community policing itself. You don't need to be keyed, you just need to put in the time on your character to be successful in some content.
I don't really see anything wrong with that.
I've never really seen this elitist attitude first hand, and sometimes that makes me wonder.
Tralyan said:This is a good point. I don't see how this is any different than having artifically gated content - and in fact, it's better. It's the epitome of the community policing itself. You don't need to be keyed, you just need to put in the time on your character to be successful in some content.
I don't really see anything wrong with that.
I've never really seen this elitist attitude first hand, and sometimes that makes me wonder.
Most people who theorycraft on the elitist attitude have never seen it first hand. It's a game forum boogeyman for the most part. At the very highest end of super competitive raiding/clearing/guild competition/etc, yes, there are rigid expectations, but that is because there is a push to be #1. It's so few players, your chances of actually playing with anyone like that is about like hitting Pick-4. And most of the people at that level of min-max devotion, when they leave their high end enclave to PUG with the less devoted, tend to be helpful, pleasant and full of really useful advice.
Sure, there are gear/level/item gates on content, but that's not elitism, it's just a gate. Meet the requirements, pass through gate.
A simple example is a permanent underwater breathing item for going to Sirens or Kedge. Lots of guilds had that as a requirement, but it made sense, given how many epics required things from Kedge ad how many mobs dispelled Enduring Breath buffs. Nothing elitist there, just recognition that fewer people drowning increased the success chance of the raid.
It's just not as big a deal as people think.
Of course it will and it is fine by me! For me it is not negative at all. Players look up to others players.
Players will require to put efforts to find those epic abilities. Just like the mythical weapon quest line in EQ and EQ2.
Just have a look at the Druid epic ability: Storm keeper. In indoor settings, Druids will be much weaker than others without their storms. I like how the gameplay does not change, a druid will still be a druid but it is great quality of life passive to have and will encourage people to go explore terminus.
Ithaca said:Just have a look at the Druid epic ability: Storm keeper. In indoor settings, Druids will be much weaker than others without their storms. I like how the gameplay does not change, a druid will still be a druid but it is great quality of life passive to have and will encourage people to go explore terminus.
It will be interesting to see howthis plays out. If the bonus is too much. Then most likely noone will want druids for indoor activities. But if there's a exp bonus in dungeons... will most people want to group outside? Shy of specific areas for quests/gear.
Venjenz said:Most people who theorycraft on the elitist attitude have never seen it first hand. It's a game forum boogeyman for the most part. At the very highest end of super competitive raiding/clearing/guild competition/etc, yes, there are rigid expectations, but that is because there is a push to be #1. It's so few players, your chances of actually playing with anyone like that is about like hitting Pick-4. And most of the people at that level of min-max devotion, when they leave their high end enclave to PUG with the less devoted, tend to be helpful, pleasant and full of really useful advice.
Sure, there are gear/level/item gates on content, but that's not elitism, it's just a gate. Meet the requirements, pass through gate.
A simple example is a permanent underwater breathing item for going to Sirens or Kedge. Lots of guilds had that as a requirement, but it made sense, given how many epics required things from Kedge ad how many mobs dispelled Enduring Breath buffs. Nothing elitist there, just recognition that fewer people drowning increased the success chance of the raid.
It's just not as big a deal as people think.
My focus of this topic wasn't really on elitist behavior, but items that could be exclusionary. Since this game is being designed around the theme of characters working together rather than competing or excluding one another. I saw that potential in the epic ablities. Granted I have not yet played Pantheon, I thought I'd ask for peoples thoughts on it.
Elitist behavior does exist and in my experience, its not all that rare. That said its a much more philosophical topic.
I can't wait to try out the epic abilities for myself as well as see how the community at large handles them once the game launches. At the moment, I'm just keeping my fingers crossed that general chat in Pantheon doesn't descend into diatribes and chuck norris jokes. :D
I want epic abilties to be difficult to reach so people that invest in a character will have a little edge and feel special to have them. People that have 50 alts will be able to enjoy different gamestyle but perhaps will not have all the epic abilties unlocked. It is a tradeoff.
In Guildwars, it was like that with elite spells. Players had to unlock them, explore, defeat a dungeon, steal it from some ennemies etc.
For the difficult content, some elite group would require player to have certain elite spell. I believe it would be similar in Pantheon. If a player wants to raid, it will be difficult enought and every little thing will be helpful. I like that design.
What I do not know at the moment is... would a great player without epic abilities be able to do his role better than a low skill player with all epic abilties? I hope so, but it certaintly depends on VR and how they designed those epic abiltiies.
Ithaca said:What I do not know at the moment is... would a great player without epic abilities be able to do his role better than a low skill player with all epic abilties? I hope so, but it certaintly depends on VR and how they designed those epic abiltiies.
Exactly. This will be the question with all powerful items and abilities in Pantheon. The more I listen to the VS team the more they seem to have a handle on this stuff. It will ultimately be in the hands of we the players and what we do with the power and how we treat one another. I'm hoping for the best as always.
We know there won't be many choices in character creation. Allot a few stat points after you pick your race/class. The only variation will be gear and these acquired spells and abilities. If someone is concerned about another players perception of their character it doesn't get much more minimal than that. There won't be a ton of choices that lets the player build their character to be different from someone else...which limits the elitist mentality.
Nanoushka said: I’m guessing with the emphasis on teamwork and groupplay that in most cases people will depend on others too much to gripe about this. I can only see it mattering with cutting edge content and competitive guilds. Which is fine imo, it’s only natural. For everyone else on the more casual side I’d expect it to be less important and not demanded, as long as you can do your job basically. I could see it being great group or guild projects, to help each other with this for a sense of character progression, if people want to. Picking a good guild and surrounding yourself with likeminded people is usually a very effective way of not being affected (too much) by these things.
This is exactly how I feel.
Porygon said:Nanoushka said: I’m guessing with the emphasis on teamwork and groupplay that in most cases people will depend on others too much to gripe about this. I can only see it mattering with cutting edge content and competitive guilds. Which is fine imo, it’s only natural. For everyone else on the more casual side I’d expect it to be less important and not demanded, as long as you can do your job basically. I could see it being great group or guild projects, to help each other with this for a sense of character progression, if people want to. Picking a good guild and surrounding yourself with likeminded people is usually a very effective way of not being affected (too much) by these things.This is exactly how I feel.
I feel the same too.
Porygon said:Nanoushka said: I’m guessing with the emphasis on teamwork and groupplay that in most cases people will depend on others too much to gripe about this. I can only see it mattering with cutting edge content and competitive guilds. Which is fine imo, it’s only natural. For everyone else on the more casual side I’d expect it to be less important and not demanded, as long as you can do your job basically. I could see it being great group or guild projects, to help each other with this for a sense of character progression, if people want to. Picking a good guild and surrounding yourself with likeminded people is usually a very effective way of not being affected (too much) by these things.This is exactly how I feel.
Same. A goal for friends to travel the world in search of....
No matter what game you play you will always have elitist and people that will segregate you. Luckily the EQ style of community doesn't do that that much. You may have 1 or 2 guilds on your server that are like that, but overall not many of us are like that and still manage to down end game content.
I don't feel like there will be a segregation per say. There will be progression barriers that will initiate people into certain levels of gameplay once they are reached. But from my past experience when those "Elite" came down to hang out with "normals" they were just the same, infact many were super helpful and would take time to teach/train/mentor people they might have known previously. I still remember when i got "initiated" into the elite group because i had max haste items and raid loot. I was still the same helpful person i had ever been, i just ran with a new crew with new goals.