One of my fondest memories was breaking Plane of Fear and the wipes that resulted. Corpse recoveries were challenging and fun. The best part of Fear, was that it was enter at your own risk. The GM would have nothing to do with that zone unless it was clearly a bug issue. We had to be very creative with on how to recover from a wipe, because sometimes even our secondary cr gear ended up on a corpse in Fear. That is where our guild heros were born, Because most of gear at that time were rare drops and took days to camp. That was the feel of the game I loved and miss. Will there be zones like this?
Ohh and on a totaly unrelated subject, bring back a faction pvp, that was some serious fun.
I hope so also, though it will never be quite as scary without the threat of corpse decay hanging over your head. These are the types of risks that make the world feel more dangerous and make it more challenging. They keep you from taking the world lightly.
Player 1: Hey man. Me and my buddies are gonna go explore Plane of Fear. You wanna come?
Player 2: Uh, you're crazy. I think I'll pass.
Player 1: Come on! What's the worst thing that can happen?
Player 2: Well, I could die, and then I could die ten more times trying and failing to recover my corpse. Then my corpse could rot before I can get it back and I could lose all of my gear.
Player 1: Oh.
EDIT: Apparently I misheard them, so I guess gear loss will be a thing so, this is me telling myself to shut up lol. Sorry for any confusion if i caused it with incorrect info.
Don't forget the de-leveled naked guy asking for guildies help to power level him back up to level 46 so he could re-enter Plane of Fear to get his gear. Or back before they put in the level restriction and some poor level 25 guy would wander into the cave and not realize he was zoning into Plane of Fear since you could just walk in. And since the exit was nowhere near where you appeared in Fear, he was as good as toast. There was no way he was getting his gear back without help.
That aside, I don't think plane of fear and plane of hate were quite as crazy hard as most of you remember it. Crazy whipes usually happend because of the mass entrance of so many people together. People would appear and start spreading out, often in the wrong directions. This would cause aggro from all sorts of extra mobs that caused a crazy fight as the raid was attacked from all sides. If you were more cautious as you entered and paid attention it really wasn't that hard. And once you cleared out the initial area, even if you ended up with a whipe on one of the bosses you could usually come in and recover without much fuss.
I remember we used to 5 man farm Plane of Hate (yes that's not even a full group of 6) for gems because they dropped like candy in there. We had a alt wizard on a seperate account that we would use to port us into Plane of Hate and then we'd log him off. It was me=Monk, Paladin Tank, Cleric, Mage, and Rogue (sometimes we had an enchanter friend come with us). One day we were casually breaking the Plane of Hate portal room when our Cleric got a message from a GM who was responding to a ticket she had about a totally unrelated issue from the day before. He needed to reimburse an item she had lost due to a glitch. He asked her if it was an ok time or if she was busy. She told him she was fine, so the GM did a port to her location. So there we were in Plane of Hate fighting and this GM appears out of nowhere. He suddenly was like "Oh my... I didn't realize you were on a Raid!" Once he looked around and realized it was just us 5 he was freaking out asking how we were managing in Plane of Hate without a full raid force. But as he watched us for a few pulls he realized that without the mass of people, it was actually much simpler to get things under control without the crazy aggro of all the mobs in the area. And once you clear out the immediate area, it was quite safe and we could move throughout the zone just like any other dungeon group.
Dubah said:This is the only decision VR has "made" when it comes to getting your corpse back and that is that you revive with all your gear. I hate this decision [snip]
Now, even tho they won't have the corpse run system, I would still love to see these zones. I think they are fun and give the players that want that extra challenge exactly what they are looking for. I'd spend days in there lol, just because it isn't easy, and there is no way to cheese it.
Can you site where VR made this announcement? From what I understood it was only during the pre-alpha streams that the Dev's were having you respawn with all your gear just so they could keep things going without long corpse recoveries. Once the game launched I was under the impression that your gear was left on your corpse and you would have to go get it.
Dubah said:Man, I miss those days. This is the only decision VR has "made" when it comes to getting your corpse back and that is that you revive with all your gear. I hate this decision because back in the day you had to utilize every single outlet to get your corpse back, which made the community into an amazing one, where a lot of people had to work together. Taking out the losing your gear side of it reduced the conversations and working together probably by at least half, there was never a safe camp, and there was never an easy way, you even had necromancers that could summon your corpse, I mean, so many things worked very well together in this system. And going into things like PoF and PoH made you think twice before doing it. Now it's just whatever, if i die i die, there is no more decision making involved, it's just a brainless cheese. Nobody even cares if they die anymore except if they have to run back to where they died.
Now, even tho they won't have the corpse run system, I would still love to see these zones. I think they are fun and give the players that want that extra challenge exactly what they are looking for. I'd spend days in there lol, just because it isn't easy, and there is no way to cheese it.
They never made any such decision. In fact, the opposite. You revive naked and have to go back to your corpse to get your stuff. They have showcased this in MANY streams, and it has even been shown that there is an "Equip All" button on the retrieval screen.
There *ARE* naked corpse runs. You are, very much mistaken.
GoofyWarriorGuy said:Dubah said:This is the only decision VR has "made" when it comes to getting your corpse back and that is that you revive with all your gear. I hate this decision [snip]
Now, even tho they won't have the corpse run system, I would still love to see these zones. I think they are fun and give the players that want that extra challenge exactly what they are looking for. I'd spend days in there lol, just because it isn't easy, and there is no way to cheese it.
Can you site where VR made this announcement? From what I understood it was only during the pre-alpha streams that the Dev's were having you respawn with all your gear just so they could keep things going without long corpse recoveries. Once the game launched I was under the impression that your gear was left on your corpse and you would have to go get it.
I could've sworn in the last 2 or 3 streams they mentioned this. I don't have time to watch to find it, and maybe i misheard them, my memory isn't exactly good either. But I'm pretty sure i had this talk with someone about them not doing the gear on death. Like I said, I could be wrong and if I am i can easily edit my post. But as of right now that's what stuck in my head lol.
Dubah said:GoofyWarriorGuy said:Dubah said:This is the only decision VR has "made" when it comes to getting your corpse back and that is that you revive with all your gear. I hate this decision [snip]
Now, even tho they won't have the corpse run system, I would still love to see these zones. I think they are fun and give the players that want that extra challenge exactly what they are looking for. I'd spend days in there lol, just because it isn't easy, and there is no way to cheese it.
Can you site where VR made this announcement? From what I understood it was only during the pre-alpha streams that the Dev's were having you respawn with all your gear just so they could keep things going without long corpse recoveries. Once the game launched I was under the impression that your gear was left on your corpse and you would have to go get it.
You are incorrect. They spawned without their gear after they died. They DID, however, make some adjustments from time to time specifically for the streams due to time constraints. Like GM kills and such on their corpse runs to get back to their bodies.
I could've sworn in the last 2 or 3 streams they mentioned this. I don't have time to watch to find it, and maybe i misheard them, my memory isn't exactly good either. But I'm pretty sure i had this talk with someone about them not doing the gear on death. Like I said, I could be wrong and if I am i can easily edit my post. But as of right now that's what stuck in my head lol.
Kalok said:Dubah said:I fixed my stupidity, and I'm sorry for spreading bad info, I guess I misheard them or something... No idea what's going on in my noggin lately lol.
On the plus side it didn't turn into a flame war.
Well, this community that we have is pretty solid, there's a few people I prefer not to converse with because some of their posts/responses just sounds disrespectful, granted that may not be the case, it's tough to tell these things with reading, but overall most people here will guide anyone in the right direction without being a dbag.
Back on to the original topic, YES PLEASE, we actually need more zones like it. I love the challenge I love the thought and the execution, grated simple, was pretty freaking awesome.
I will be interested in how death is finalized. With no level loss, a minor exp loss, no corpse rot etc. the 'fear' factor is at a bare minimum. naked corpse run isn't even as scary without some of that.
Not too worried though. I just really have a lot of faith in the design team.
My personal "wish" is to have level loss back on the table. I remember stayin in EQ groups After gaining a level so i could get 10% into level just in case i died. with no level loss people will bolt 13 seconds after they ding.
So...Kilsin started this thread almost three years ago and it’s still going. There were some comments from Brad sprinkled in there.
On February 6, 2016 (Page 5) he said:
Great discussion. Lot of good ideas. Too early to set the death penalty in stone, but if you know us, read up on Pantheon, the FAQ, you can get a good general idea: death needs to sting for victory to be sweet. If the death penalty is too light, players will not respect the environment, risk vs. reward is damaged, as is sense of accomplishment. If a death penalty is too great, people won't take any risks and just try to find the safest, no matter how boring route to progression. So we need to find the middle ground that works for our target audience, and I am confident we will dial that in.
Then on February 7, 2016 (Page 6) he said:
Quick comment: whatever the specific death penalty turns out to be, I can say now that we're not going with an item system where your items wear down and need to be repaired.
Finally, on June 3, 2016 (Page 10) he said:
Whew, awesome thread, great ideas, etc.
As I've stated before, the 'severity' of Pantheon's death penalty will likely lie inbetween two 'extremes': Vanilla EQ and Vanilla VG. We need to find that sweet spot in-between the two. Totally naked corpse runs are probably too extreme. But, on the other end of the pendulum, trivializing death penalties leads to all sorts of problems. Players don't respect the environment, aren't encouraged to play seriously and with forethought, etc. At the same time, if we go too far the other way, many players will want to avoid death to such a great degree that exploration, trying new tactics, taking on that formidable boss-mob, etc. will suffer.
The goal, of course, is to come up with a death penalty that is desired by our target audience. That's easier said than done, though, because even though you all are more often on the same page than not when it comes to design and mechanics, there are a few categories where there is not an obvious or clear mandate from our community. The death penalty, of course, is one of these.
So when it comes to situations like this, here is our general approach:
Define the two extremes. Set up the system where it's relatively easy to 'tune' between these two extremes. Implement during alpha and beta the system and adjust the 'tuning'. Watch the players, listen to the community, etc. Adjust accordingly and, hopefully, narrow things down.
This is, of course, a great example of why a long beta is so important to MMORPG development. Opinions and plans are great, but often until players are actually experiencing these critical mechanics and systems we developers need to wait and watch (and not commit to specifics).
So that will be our approach -- try the spectrum out in alpha and beta, listen to the community, experience it ourselves, and slowly but surely iron out the details.
Lastly, in the event that the community becomes truly split on something as critical as the Death Penalty and its associated mechanics, we always have the option to implement variations on the theme depending on the server/shard. Athough it's far too early to speculate with any certainty, the penalty for dying in Pantheon may turn out to be something that becomes part of our Alternate Ruleset Servers, with the details and severity depending on which server/shard you've chosen to play on.
Those comments are pretty dated, though, and we’ve already seen naked corpse runs in the streams. Maybe we’ll get lucky and we’ll end up with corpse decay and deleveling as well.
It may not be the main point of the original post, but since it was there I feel free to agree with it without being off-topic.
Faction pvp is the only kind I will play - where there is an underlying purpose other than murdering others for fun and profit.
The more faction in the game the better, even in pve.
Problems in zones that aren't your race or faction, even as extreme as being kill-on-sight, make the world seem larger and more realistic. Languages too - no buying a book and suddenly you know the language as in EQ2.
I think an important concept that applies here is that the game will influence player behavior. I would argue that part of the joy of playing a game in general is the influence the rules and conditions of the game place upon the player that require the player to adhere and adapt to those rules.
As this pertains to the nature of corpse runs and death penalty the game will teach the player early on to avoid these scenarios, perhaps in the following manner:
1. Exp loss at lower levels are not as severe, and perhaps exp gain at lower levels are somewhat higher (like in the exponential monster increase article someone posted that was really good), likewise exp loss at higher levels is more severe, and exp gain is not high or is normal, but there are rezzes that can get some of the exp back- although not necessary for you have learned that a camp in X spot tomorrow and the4 next day will get you some exp back no problem and possibly some nice drops- then you go back.
2. Naked corpse runs. At early levels its the instant calming reinforcement of spawning inside your home town- just like when you started. Everyone knows you and its relatively safe, buy some humble food and drink for a few silver, just enough to stop the pangs while you go outside the city gates to get your corpse in that zone. Its not far, but you get the first twinge of nervousness. Maybe one thwak from a monster causes you to run back to the guards because it did a heck of alot more damage than when you had your gear on. So you run a different route, get your stuff and dash back to the gaurds possibly training the guards.
These initial two learning experiences then compound (exponential?). The more you explore, and the spells and skill you learn, improve your survivability. Corpse runs are not so bad two zones over because you've learned the pathing of the monsters from exploring there when younger and you know what to avoid, plus you know some landmarks in the new zone from where you died. Corpse runs in Dungeons are more severe but lower end dungeons are closer to your starting city making the run to the dungeon nerve-wracking and then doubly so in having to think about how to get your corpse once in the dungeon. You learn, the farther away you are from town, the better a player you need to be-regardless of the group make-up. I say regardless of the group make up because in my opinion the first boss in darkrose keep CAN be defeated with just a shaman healing at level 20- if your group is good enough.
Props to the Devs snickering while the way higher level monster one-shots you on your corpse run one zone away from the town. Not too far to run back but an annoyance that is easily overcome by dusting yourself off and running back and makes you ask questions as you progress and meet people in the harder areas or to older players like "anything I need to look out for in here"? and the reply : yes, at your level? avoid the Giant skeleton cyclops but keep his head for brewing.
Yeah i remember i had to wait few days to get my corpse back, countless numbers of tries with piles of Tombstones :P
This is one way to make dead meanful, hard corpse runs. So you need to be careful when you play there. Saw to many MMO where you could do the dumbiest things over and over again and only get a bit XP loss.
Would be funny when you die, the NPC drag your corpse into a jail and your group needs to come and do a rescue mission to get your corpse back.