Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

WoW Clone or Complete Failure?

    • 54 posts
    May 20, 2018 12:58 PM PDT

    I have a lot of experience with MMORPGs and the trend I see from developers is to either copy World of Warcraft or to create something different, albeit do it poorly.

    Creating a game that is very similar to WoW is a bad idea because Blizzard has already set the bar so high with respect to polish and game content. A player isn't going to stop playing WoW to play a game that offers essentially the same experience with the only differences being its lore, lower quality, and lesser content. And even if the experience is miraculously just as polished, it would just be more of the same. Why would a seasoned WoW player leave their guild, friends, and memories to play more of the same when they could just continue playing WoW?

    Then there are the developers who do try something different. They try to be edgy or attempt to appeal to PvPers or more hardcore players. I have no problem with this approach, but unfortunately these developers have all sucked. And because of their ineptness, they've in a sense tarnished these other approaches, discouraging other developers from creating something that isn't a WoW-clone or themepark MMORPG.

    Looking back on EverQuest, why is it so difficult for developers to create a similar experience, only updated? And by updated I mean tight controls, good graphics, good sound, good music, and a good UI? In other words, my ideal MMORPG would be more or less the original EverQuest with the controls, UI, and combat of WoW. I don't want instanced dungeons. I don't want to be coddled when my character dies. I don't want dance emotes or quests referencing memes or pop culture. I don't want to hit the level cap in two days. I don't want to respec whenever I feel like it (or whenever my guild wants me to), defeating the purpose of specialization. Is that too much to ask? Evidently, it is.

    Pantheon seems to have more promise than other future MMORPGs, but we'll see. I've been through this many times before. It may be the case that the MMORPG genre will remain forever ruined and that my tastes are completely different from the mainstream or the target audience of every single developer of MMORPGs.


    This post was edited by manofyesterday at May 21, 2018 9:51 AM PDT
    • 115 posts
    May 20, 2018 4:08 PM PDT

    manofyesterday said:

    Looking back on EverQuest, why is it so difficult for developers to create a similar experience, only updated?

    Corporate Greed.

    • 2756 posts
    May 20, 2018 4:10 PM PDT

    manofyesterday said:I've been through this many times before. It may be the case that the MMORPG genre will remain forever ruined and that my tastes are completely different from the mainstream or the target audience of every single developer of MMORPGs.

    Whilst I've been through many disappointments over the years, none but VR have ever exposed and emphasised their core tenets and beliefs as clearly and openly.

    None of them intentionally and publically stated they aim at a niche audience because they have faith that they will gain a fiercely appreciative and loyal, if smaller, community.

    The hope that they will also sway people outside that existing niche to be 'converted' is well-founded, I believe, but it is a risk and a brave one to take.

    VR are doing it differently to the other MMORPG producers since EQ and I truly believe they are getting it right and will not disappoint us.


    This post was edited by disposalist at May 20, 2018 4:11 PM PDT
    • 218 posts
    May 20, 2018 4:13 PM PDT

    disposalist said:

    manofyesterday said:I've been through this many times before. It may be the case that the MMORPG genre will remain forever ruined and that my tastes are completely different from the mainstream or the target audience of every single developer of MMORPGs.

    Whilst I've been through many disappointments over the years, none but VR have ever exposed and emphasised their core tenets and beliefs as clearly and openly.

    None of them intentionally and publically stated they aim at a niche audience because they have faith that they will gain a fiercely appreciative and loyal, if smaller, community.

    The hope that they will also sway people outside that existing niche to be 'converted' is well-founded, I believe, but it is a risk and a brave one to take.

    VR are doing it differently to the other MMORPG producers since EQ and I truly believe they are getting it right and will not disappoint us.

    I agree WHOLE-HEARTEDLY!!

    • 1095 posts
    May 20, 2018 4:17 PM PDT

     

    Are you trying to ask if Pantheon is a wow clone? lol


    This post was edited by Aich at May 20, 2018 4:21 PM PDT
    • 844 posts
    May 20, 2018 5:14 PM PDT

    Zeem said:

    Are you trying to ask if Pantheon is a wow clone? lol

    Yeah, same thing I was wondering.

    These guys that think WOW invented MMO's don't realize if you take away the cartoon characters (they had to appeal to young children), add instancing, reduce deaths to a carebear joke, WOW is actually a copy of EQ1.

    Shocking.

    • 54 posts
    May 20, 2018 5:31 PM PDT

    True, blizzard didn't invent the MMORPG genre. My first MMORPG was EverQuest.

     

    However, I wouldn't call WoW a copy of EverQuest any more than I would call Mortal Kombat a copy of Street Fighter. I do agree with the overall sentinment that WoW is an MMORPG on training wheels and was created in such a way to appeal to a much wider audience. Unfortunately, many developers and their customers have grown acustomed to this type of MMORPG.

    • 1281 posts
    May 20, 2018 5:57 PM PDT

    Since Pantheon is as far from a WoW clone as you can get, I'm not worried.

    • 1456 posts
    May 20, 2018 7:11 PM PDT

    bigdogchris said:

    Since Pantheon is as far from a WoW clone as you can get, I'm not worried.

    I've been questioning that laitly.

    1) No real death penalty, (experiance loss is insignifacant)

    2) No need for corpse run, (if you dont loose anything then there is little reason to go get it unless right out in the open)

    3) The recent word of fast travel (teleport between all starting city's)

    Whats next?

    To me it appears they are already caving into the dumbed down WoW version of EQ (WoW Clone) and it's not even alpha yet. 

     

    • 162 posts
    May 20, 2018 7:20 PM PDT

    Ok, edited for clarification, other post seemed kinda bad lol.

    Anyways, There is no such thing as a WoW clone, honestly EQ clone would be more like it, and I do believe that is what Brad is creating, if you haven't played his other games, Vanguard and EQ I wish you still could play vanguard. But, honestly there were so many MMO's that came out before WoW there really isn't such a thing as a WoW clone, it is a myth.

    Anyways, back to the topic, the difficulty is what i really crave, I am with you there, I don't want to be coddled, if I wanted that I'd run to my wife or my service dog or something lol. But realistically I do like what they are doing and have done so far, if you've watched their streams they are doing some pretty tough content with some cool effects that even level 20's aren't prepared for, and it's in their range, kind of. So, I like where it's going.

    I honestly don't even need a graphics update, I'd be ok with eq like graphics just a new game with more and different tough things to do. I think they are gonna nail it and i have high hopes for this game, so I hope it doesn't crash.


    This post was edited by Dubah at May 20, 2018 7:32 PM PDT
    • 3 posts
    May 20, 2018 8:12 PM PDT

    Zorkon said:

    bigdogchris said:

    Since Pantheon is as far from a WoW clone as you can get, I'm not worried.

    I've been questioning that laitly.

    1) No real death penalty, (experiance loss is insignifacant)

    2) No need for corpse run, (if you dont loose anything then there is little reason to go get it unless right out in the open)

    3) The recent word of fast travel (teleport between all starting city's)

    Whats next?

    To me it appears they are already caving into the dumbed down WoW version of EQ (WoW Clone) and it's not even alpha yet. 

     

     

    Eh,

     

    Still only in Pre-Alpha, so all of these are not set in stone. Any of these could or could not actually happen.

    • 1456 posts
    May 20, 2018 8:21 PM PDT

    Jyles said:

    Zorkon said:

    bigdogchris said:

    Since Pantheon is as far from a WoW clone as you can get, I'm not worried.

    I've been questioning that laitly.

    1) No real death penalty, (experiance loss is insignifacant)

    2) No need for corpse run, (if you dont loose anything then there is little reason to go get it unless right out in the open)

    3) The recent word of fast travel (teleport between all starting city's)

    Whats next?

    To me it appears they are already caving into the dumbed down WoW version of EQ (WoW Clone) and it's not even alpha yet. 

     

     

    Eh,

     

    Still only in Pre-Alpha, so all of these are not set in stone. Any of these could or could not actually happen.

    Agreed, but all three have been stated as where they are at this point. I dont expect that to change much.

    • 1281 posts
    May 20, 2018 9:11 PM PDT

    Zorkon said:

    bigdogchris said:

    Since Pantheon is as far from a WoW clone as you can get, I'm not worried.

    I've been questioning that laitly.

    1) No real death penalty, (experiance loss is insignifacant)

    2) No need for corpse run, (if you dont loose anything then there is little reason to go get it unless right out in the open)

    3) The recent word of fast travel (teleport between all starting city's)

    Whats next?

    To me it appears they are already caving into the dumbed down WoW version of EQ (WoW Clone) and it's not even alpha yet. 

     

    1.  Show me where they hvae said thee is no real death penalty....  Inn fact, they have said the exact opposite.  They just haven't "fined tuned" it yet, which they have stated will probnablly not happen until beta.

    2.  They have already stated, in just about every video, that corpse runs will be a thing.  Period.

    3.  They have already said that fast travel will not be a thing.  Period.

     

    Nice try.

    • 1860 posts
    May 20, 2018 9:37 PM PDT

    Zorkon said:

    I've been questioning that laitly.

    1) No real death penalty, (experiance loss is insignifacant)

    2) No need for corpse run, (if you dont loose anything then there is little reason to go get it unless right out in the open)

    3) The recent word of fast travel (teleport between all starting city's)

    Whats next?

    To me it appears they are already caving into the dumbed down WoW version of EQ (WoW Clone) and it's not even alpha yet. 

     

    This is pretty much misconstrued.

    1)There will be exp loss on death.  It is level loss that may or may not be included.

    2)Naked corpse runs are a thing.  We have seen this in every single stream.  You will have to get your gear.

    3) Where did you hear fast travel between all starting cities?  Did I miss that?  We know player ports will be in eventually.  Likely solo ports from wiz/druid and group ports at higher lvl.  Was fast travel between starting cities recent info that I missed?  That seems to go against a lot of what has been brought up in the past.  Can you link to that info please?

    Edit: I guess Kalok beat me to it above.


    This post was edited by philo at May 20, 2018 9:39 PM PDT
    • 394 posts
    May 20, 2018 10:05 PM PDT

    Zorkon said:

    bigdogchris said:

    Since Pantheon is as far from a WoW clone as you can get, I'm not worried.

    I've been questioning that laitly.

    1) No real death penalty, (experiance loss is insignifacant)

    2) No need for corpse run, (if you dont loose anything then there is little reason to go get it unless right out in the open)

    3) The recent word of fast travel (teleport between all starting city's)

    Whats next?

    To me it appears they are already caving into the dumbed down WoW version of EQ (WoW Clone) and it's not even alpha yet. 

     

     

    sounds like you don't follow the game at all. or watch Any of the streams. 

    you are naked after you die. and they may not have corpse rot (where your stuff goes away) but if you don't go get your stuff, you strart over with zero gear after Every single death.  You don't Have to get your old gear if you don't want... i guess... if that's how you wanna play the game.  not sure anyone will group with a naked, weaponless, lev 8:  'anyclass'

    The only thing that sucks is no level loss... you Should be able to lose levels .... 

     

    • 627 posts
    May 21, 2018 3:19 AM PDT
    @Zorkon Wow is a themepark mmo, you can que to dungeons, raids and pvp. Players get activities to do like daily and weekly quests. Quests are very easy to spot and you get a lot of guidance through them.

    Pantheon is what we call a sandbox mmo where non of these features will be available, if you want in a specific dungeon you have to more your character to that location and begin your adventure. Here the player is a part and move within the world he's not raised about it for easy access to the content or for convience.

    So Pantheon can never be a wow clone, as you state. Because it is not build around the same principles.

    You are sad about the limited death penalties, ok that's fair. But from a business PoV hour long death runs is not for everyone, likely it's actually a very low procentage of players who actually enjoy this makanic.

    Most of us like the sting when you die, and death should be something you would do a lot to avoid.
    Maybe VR can make a Hardcore server with specific bonuses to death, travel and such to cater to players who share your opinion.

    The portal system and fast travel needs to be there, again non of us wants to spend 4 hours moving around. Moving should take time, but not hours long runs of doing latterly nothing like in Eq. We are in 2018..

    As for Alpha I'm getting tired of hearing waaa waaa no Alpha waaa stop ur crying and have some patience. It takes time and effort to create a piece of art, it can't be rushed.
    • 1456 posts
    May 21, 2018 7:29 AM PDT

    I dont have time now, I'm at work.  But here just

    ICYMI

    You might want to check this stream with Kilsin. 

    I'll respond to each of my points again in there respective threads. This one is about Pantheon becoming a WOW clone, not about any individual point of why I see that concern.

    And while I'm at it, I'll add to my WOW clone concern list there solution for the overhead "?" ... replace it with a investigate/ignore pop up.. seriously?

    The question marks are less intrusive.

    No matter what clothes you put on it a clone is a clone.


    This post was edited by Zorkon at May 21, 2018 8:33 AM PDT
    • 780 posts
    May 21, 2018 7:29 AM PDT

    @manofyesterday There are some good replies here and some bad ones, but my advice is to read and understand the game tenets.  If you agree with what they say they are trying to make, then have faith in them.  They're putting in work and they're doing a good job.  I'm not a fanboy.  I complain about stuff here or in Discord pretty often.  Overall, though, they are doing a good job, and this is going to be a great game. 

    • 3852 posts
    May 21, 2018 7:31 AM PDT

    WoW was not an EQ clone - it had some similar elements and many that were different. Probably more that were different and the aim was at a younger audience. Hit that aim really well too (which is why most of *us* were not impressed).

    EQ was not a UO or Yserbius clone. Some similarities many differences and it did a great job of hitting its audience.

    I hope that Pantheon will not be a clone of anything, but rather a game with an EQ-like approach, some obvious similarities most done deliberately to appeal to nostalgia, and many improvements. And some things done poorly - we cannot hope for perfection since on every major decision some of us will be overjoyed and some of us will ....not be. Better on balance than any alternative is my hope, with some things going the way I want but other design decisons going the way I do not want. That is the way of it.

    Death will have much more of a sting than in most current MMOs but less of a sting than EQ - bet on this. 

    Classes will be more locked into specific group than most current MMOs but will be designed so that they can solo too - you can bet on that also.

    Death runs will be there but will be a lot more optional than in EQ - another really safe bet.

    Travel will be a lot easier than in EQ but a lot harder than most current games - we are on a roll with these bets and this isn't even a roll-playing forum. 

    • 1860 posts
    May 21, 2018 8:09 AM PDT

    @Zorkon I'm sure most of us already watched that interview. Unsure why you came across with such a different interpretation than others did. I just watched the relevant part with Kils again thinking that I might have missed something.

    There wasn't any new info in that interview that someone following the game closely didn't already know. It wasn't stated that 1) there will be no real death penalty. 2) There will be no need for a corpse run or 3) there will be fast travel between starting cities like you stated above. 

    There have been multiple posts you have made that seem to have a twisted perspective of the game Zork (not just this thread). Maybe you can share specifics links to where you are getting your info?


    This post was edited by philo at May 21, 2018 8:13 AM PDT
    • 1456 posts
    May 21, 2018 8:59 AM PDT

    OK at the 57.20 min mark in the Kilsin interview Braun ask a question about corpse runs, the answer is something to the effect of...

    If you release you lose the experience if you get back to your corpse you regaine it. (See the interview for the exact quote)

    to me the word "release" would mean you can easly bypass the corpse run. To me (and I'm not alone) the experience loss is trivial so this, EXPECIALLY compiled with no level loss means corps runs are not required, they are optional to anybody not in a hurry to end game.

     

    Did you miss that or ignore it?

    I'm pretty sure the starting city teleport comment was in that interview as well..

     Like I said I'll look more after work.

     

    • 89 posts
    May 21, 2018 9:23 AM PDT

    Zorkon said:

    OK at the 57.20 min mark in the Kilsin interview Braun ask a question about corpse runs, the answer is something to the effect of...

    If you release you lose the experience if you get back to your corpse you regaine it. (See the interview for the exact quote)

    to me the word "release" would mean you can easly bypass the corpse run. To me (and I'm not alone) the experience loss is trivial so this, EXPECIALLY compiled with no level loss means corps runs are not required, they are optional to anybody not in a hurry to end game.

    From what we've seen in streams releasing means respwan. So if you don't respawn and someone else wanders along to res you, then you wouldn't lose XP. That's actually pretty similar to EQ, find a res to not lose as much XP.

    If you do make the corpse run, Kilsin said that he thinks that they may go with a system where you get back a portion of the lost XP.

    You also have no idea how much expirence will be lost on death. In EQ it capped out somewhere around 12%. What if in Pantheon it's closer to 30%? What if they work expirence debt so that it has to be all paid off before you can level? There are so many systems still up in the air that we know nothing about and everything we've seen has shown us a hardcore game.

    I honestly think you're looking for reasons to be disappointed.

    • 1456 posts
    May 21, 2018 10:09 AM PDT

    Gurt said:

    Zorkon said:

    OK at the 57.20 min mark in the Kilsin interview Braun ask a question about corpse runs, the answer is something to the effect of...

    If you release you lose the experience if you get back to your corpse you regaine it. (See the interview for the exact quote)

    to me the word "release" would mean you can easly bypass the corpse run. To me (and I'm not alone) the experience loss is trivial so this, EXPECIALLY compiled with no level loss means corps runs are not required, they are optional to anybody not in a hurry to end game.

    From what we've seen in streams releasing means respwan. So if you don't respawn and someone else wanders along to res you, then you wouldn't lose XP. That's actually pretty similar to EQ, find a res to not lose as much XP.

    If you do make the corpse run, Kilsin said that he thinks that they may go with a system where you get back a portion of the lost XP.

    You also have no idea how much expirence will be lost on death. In EQ it capped out somewhere around 12%. What if in Pantheon it's closer to 30%? What if they work expirence debt so that it has to be all paid off before you can level? There are so many systems still up in the air that we know nothing about and everything we've seen has shown us a hardcore game.

    I honestly think you're looking for reasons to be disappointed.

    Everything you stated is irrelevant if you had read what I stated (now highlighted) experience is trivial to a LOT of people... granted not so much people that pay to get into the development process, but casual players looking to spend some time in a fantasy world...They don't care if they are level 15 or 50... there is an elite bunch (15%  per Brad) that value exp. above all else and need to get to max level.  For this group that don't care about exp... make it 100% of a level worth of exp if you like.. it's simply debt and no level loss so big deal. A day will come along where were in a good exp group and we'll blast through that debt and be done with it.

    I'm not looking for reasons to be disappointed, quite the opposite. It's in development, if I don't speak up now I have nobody but myself to blame when it launches and I am disappointed.

    In turn the fact that it seems a lot of you missed the "release" comment could imply your being fan boy's and seeing what you want to see. But I won't go there.. I think you all like me want what is best for pantheon and you just missed that.

    • 411 posts
    May 21, 2018 10:23 AM PDT

    Could there be some confusion with regards to what gear loss will come with death? I could be wrong, but it seems like Zorkon is working under the belieft that when you respawn you have your gear with you, as that's the only way I could see a corpse run as being optional. As we have seen in the streams when you respawn you have no gear. You have to retrieve your corpse to get your gear back. The difference between EQ and Pantheon (of course subject to change) is that your gear will never be completely destroyed if you don't retrieve your corpse. If you log in 1 month after you die your corpse will still be waiting for you wherever you died with all your gear still on it.

    If all of your gear stays on your corpse, then I don't see how you can reasonably proceed without doing a corpse run, so it's not at all "optional" as in Zorkon's highlighted quote.

    • 2752 posts
    May 21, 2018 10:42 AM PDT

    Zorkon said:

    Everything you stated is irrelevant if you had read what I stated (now highlighted) experience is trivial to a LOT of people... granted not so much people that pay to get into the development process, but casual players looking to spend some time in a fantasy world...They don't care if they are level 15 or 50... there is an elite bunch (15%  per Brad) that value exp. above all else and need to get to max level.  For this group that don't care about exp... make it 100% of a level worth of exp if you like.. it's simply debt and no level loss so big deal. A day will come along where were in a good exp group and we'll blast through that debt and be done with it.

    I'm not looking for reasons to be disappointed, quite the opposite. It's in development, if I don't speak up now I have nobody but myself to blame when it launches and I am disappointed.

    In turn the fact that it seems a lot of you missed the "release" comment could imply your being fan boy's and seeing what you want to see. But I won't go there.. I think you all like me want what is best for pantheon and you just missed that.

    What further punishments would you want? A lot of people seem to want death to do more than sting, they want every death to be a desk pounding experience. Death should sting a little sure, but not be a punch in the kidney. It's not as if all death or even most deaths are personal failings and even if they were - the punishment should fit the crime. You or your group made a mistake and it costs you some measure of time (corpse run/regaining exp), time being the main "currency" for almost all things in a MMORPG. You die and you lose time, seems fitting enough to me without discouraging taking risks too much. 

     

    Release means to respawn at your bind point naked in Pantheon...in every single MMO I have ever played release means to leave the overview of one's corpse and respawn at their bind/home point.