Making travel more difficult/tedious/punishing than even EQ would be a mistake.
Raine said:What I'm seeing from many posters here is that travel time is considered to be, essentially, time that you're not playing. Time that's being taken out of your playtime. Something you do before you can get to your playtime. I think this is probably the #1 mentality to tackle. That is partly on the devs, sure, but also on the player.
Secondly, this problem comes down to one of Pantheon's design tenets - the one about unapologetically being able to say that your game isn't designed for everyone. I personally really hope that ports are never ubiquitous - no amount of travel is worse than that feeling that the "world" you're in is not a world at all, but just some zones you traverse in moments on a loading screen. Meaningful travel for me, for sure.
It IS time spent not playing or otherwise really enjoying/engaging the game. At a certain point a player has seen the world a couple times over and travel is just a complete tedious chore, point your character in the general direction of the next zone line and hit auto-run then turn and continue watching Netflix. What meaning is there? What is meaningful about running the same path across the world for the 10th time?
It also limits the ability to curb overcrowding and competition when the options end up being stay and hope a spot opens up during ones playtime or spend anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour or so trying to get to another area for the level to do the same. The longer it takes to get to other similar areas the less appealing it is to even risk it, especially for someone that only has a couple hours a night on average.
I mean, there are people here saying that they do enjoy it as part of their game for a variety of reasons. I suppose it's just a different type of player.
The point that it kind of "locks" people a bit more to their chosen location is true, of course. That is why the choice of said location is a little more meaningful.
Iksar said:Making travel more difficult/tedious/punishing than even EQ would be a mistake.
Raine said:What I'm seeing from many posters here is that travel time is considered to be, essentially, time that you're not playing. Time that's being taken out of your playtime. Something you do before you can get to your playtime. I think this is probably the #1 mentality to tackle. That is partly on the devs, sure, but also on the player.
Secondly, this problem comes down to one of Pantheon's design tenets - the one about unapologetically being able to say that your game isn't designed for everyone. I personally really hope that ports are never ubiquitous - no amount of travel is worse than that feeling that the "world" you're in is not a world at all, but just some zones you traverse in moments on a loading screen. Meaningful travel for me, for sure.
It IS time spent not playing or otherwise really enjoying/engaging the game. At a certain point a player has seen the world a couple times over and travel is just a complete tedious chore, point your character in the general direction of the next zone line and hit auto-run then turn and continue watching Netflix. What meaning is there? What is meaningful about running the same path across the world for the 10th time?
It also limits the ability to curb overcrowding and competition when the options end up being stay and hope a spot opens up during ones playtime or spend anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour or so trying to get to another area for the level to do the same. The longer it takes to get to other similar areas the less appealing it is to even risk it, especially for someone that only has a couple hours a night on average.
It is ture but I think at the start there should be very little fast travel, giving people lots of time to explore. As the game gets older and its no longer exploring, finding little things to shorten travel time will have to come but not so much it takes people out of the game like WoW with flying mounts.
I like the idea OP and I think it, or some variation, has merit.
My personal concern regarding teleportation and game-play is having a bunch of low level toons being ported all over the game space by their friends, guildmembers, or other players for the sake of conveinience or advantage. There should be limits that appropriately regard any number of uneccessary or exploitative teleport usage.
I also really like the idea of having attunement limits for teleporting classes.
And I think the process of teleporting could include various types and degrees of risk not only for the caster, but those being teleported as well. Developers could have fun creating some crazy scenarios that might occur at very rare chances.
Just make teleporting have some limits, make it reasonalbe and appropriate to the skill and it's process.
Iksar said:Making travel more difficult/tedious/punishing than even EQ would be a mistake.
You believe it is tedious and punishing. Other people don't, including me.
If the goal of VR is to create a compelling virtual world, then fast-travel has no place.
It IS time spent not playing or otherwise really enjoying/engaging the game. At a certain point a player has seen the world a couple times over and travel is just a complete tedious chore, point your character in the general direction of the next zone line and hit auto-run then turn and continue watching Netflix. What meaning is there? What is meaningful about running the same path across the world for the 10th time?
Lots of people, including me, do enjoy traveling to location to location in games because it makes the game feel real. Do you know why? Because that's how people travel in the real world. If you want to go down to the local 7/11, even though you've visited it 100 times before, you still need to hop on your bike, jump into your car, or start walking. And some people like the act of traveling because it allows them to think and destress. Some people just enjoy looking at the scenery while traveling even when they've been down the same road hundreds of times before. I'd also argue that the act of traveling to a destination increases the rewards found at the destination. Is this really that foreign of a concept to you? And while people are traveling down the road that they've been down hundreds of times before, they may encounter something new.
Now, what do we call people who can't be bothered to walk down to a local store even when there's something there that they want? We call them lazy and maybe even depressed. If you want to be lazy and depressed, then fine. There are a ton of MMORPG devs out there that cater to lazy and depressed players, but there are little to no MMORPG devs who have the main goal of creating a compelling virtual world.
Well I think maybe druids/Wizards have to actually get to one of this spots (circles/spires) and maybe there is an npc, or something else (preception system) there that they can learn the spell to access that spot. Either a quest, rep, coin, etc,likely behind a level requirement to use.
There so many good ideas from everyone here. Some out of the box thinking.
Personally, I want to see ships in the game for sure. Maybe they aren't the greatest, best looking ships, but as the game evolves over the years, maybe that is something that can change. I 100% agree, it's something that plays into what they want to go with the game. That down time waiting on a ship is the chance for social, interacting, etc with others. The teleports for druids/wizards, I feel, is something that can come later as they gain levels and stuff.
also, EQ ships were horrible, when you zoned on one half the time you were in the water. I think it was because of the technology at the time. But we have seen in world of warcraft, archage, and so many other games that, that same system can be used and works with better technology. So I think it's possible! If there world is setup so there isn't any zoning, like there was in EQ, I very much can see it working! *crosses fingers*
eldrun said:Agreed. I’m very excited to see what the ocean traveling can look like.
I've always looked back on the ship building of Vanguard with melancholy. It was such a neat concept that just didn't have the time/money to get as fleshed out as I belive it was intended to be.
Saicred said:Would a "de-buff" after teleporting make any sense?
Like a Rez sickness in a way... maybe something that would cause you to run slow for a minute or two after TPing?
Perhaps it could depending on the distance you travled the longer it takes to regain your senses and full stats. Add in some random areas you can spawn in at in the area and it could add for some exciting and risky gameplay!
Please let's not let this devolve into that "if you want anything more than classic hardcore old-school mechanics whatsoever then you don't want Pantheon" rubbish?
And please can we avoid the hyperbole like "if you want to avoid 30 minute boat trips, you must want instant travel everywhere"?
People want to explore and adventure. Repeatedly taking a long time travelling the same routes over and over is not exploring or adventuring.
Here's a thought I just had -
How about placing the "portals" (druid rings/wizard spires) only in the more dangerous high level zones?
I was thinking about Dreadlands and Ice Clad Ocean. If I wanted to go to Crystal Caverns in the Eastern Wastes, it wasn't very difficult to find a teleport to Ice Clad, only 1 zone over, but the terrain between the port locaion and crystal caverns was deadly and tense. You had to cross hilly tundra filled with cougars and frost giants in Ice clad, Orcs and Griffins in Eastern Wastes, and somehow sneak your way into the Ry'Gorr keep and place your hand on the orb that sends you to Crystal Caverns. THAT'S what makes those adventures fun to me. It's not too much the running itself that does it as much as the danger that goes along with it.
Everyone has a story about their first run from Qeynos to Freeport. Every one of those stories involves dangers and running for your lives from bandits in West Karana, Griffins in North Karana, Orcs in Highpass and Undead in the dead of night in Kithicor. The stories don't talk about the time it takes, they talk about the dangers. Even the small trek from the port location in Butcherblock to Unrest involved a trek through Dagnor's Cauldron, and without a Levi or SoW, that was a tense run in your low 20's high teens.
So if you want to be safe? Take the long boat. If you want to be quick? Buy a teleport from a Druid and Wizard that sends you right in the middle of danger. Don't have a ring/spire in Western Commons - have it on the friggin' Spectre Isle in The Oasis.
I'd be ok with that trade off.
There are few schools of thought with portals. The first being that you would want to port to safe zones or city zones. This is common, but you end up with basically EQ1 PoK book portals with a connecting zone or nexus. Or you have a large list of spells you can cast and travel is free and abundant.
The second is to keep the portals in dangerous areas and make the travel meaningful at first, but easy after you gather your totems. This is the more popular choice because travel between towns will most likely be relatively easy. And some form of Caravan can be introduced like a Land-Boat that auto transports you between towns.
The third option is a hybrid like EQ1 original content. Portals that are close to safe areas. 1or2 zones away. Usually placed low level zone areas. Not extremely dangerous but not safe.
The main thing to consider is the SCOPE of the game. These zones are going to be massive. With multiple different areas with different levels of mobs to keep people entertained. I think a lot of players are going to want portals that put them closer to dangerous areas so that travel to EXP spots will be easier. This is EQ1 Velious Era portals. I personally feel that this is how they should be handled. You travel to the portal that is dangerous and near a really high level dungeon(but not right next to it), grab a totem and you can now return to that place a lot easier the next time. The initial run should be memorable, and these portals should not be safe for any extended period as they will be valuable due to the magic power coursing through the area. So you will want a full EXP group set up before you venture out.
disposalist said:Repeatedly taking a long time travelling the same routes over and over is not exploring or adventuring.
I hear what you're saying. But this only applies once you've explored and adventured all the stuff that space has to offer. I think it's fair to say that the higher you level up there will be some relief in the form of travel time, especially through content/areas that you've already been through. At least to some degree.
dayhjawk said:Well I think maybe druids/Wizards have to actually get to one of this spots (circles/spires) and maybe there is an npc, or something else (preception system) there that they can learn the spell to access that spot. Either a quest, rep, coin, etc,likely behind a level requirement to use.
I always took VR's statement on this to mean that each player would have to have travelled themselves to the ring/spire or whatever, and have been attuned somehow, to even be ported there. I don't remember where I read it, but that was the impression that I got. Of course, this would include the wiz/druid also!
manofyesterday said:Lots of people, including me, do enjoy traveling to location to location in games because it makes the game feel real. Do you know why? Because that's how people travel in the real world. If you want to go down to the local 7/11, even though you've visited it 100 times before, you still need to hop on your bike, jump into your car, or start walking. And some people like the act of traveling because it allows them to think and destress. Some people just enjoy looking at the scenery while traveling even when they've been down the same road hundreds of times before. I'd also argue that the act of traveling to a destination increases the rewards found at the destination. Is this really that foreign of a concept to you? And while people are traveling down the road that they've been down hundreds of times before, they may encounter something new.
Now, what do we call people who can't be bothered to walk down to a local store even when there's something there that they want? We call them lazy and maybe even depressed. If you want to be lazy and depressed, then fine. There are a ton of MMORPG devs out there that cater to lazy and depressed players, but there are little to no MMORPG devs who have the main goal of creating a compelling virtual world.
Sure, if I want to go to the local 7/11 I walk/bike/drive there but at no point do I enjoy the commute any more than any previous time or get excited that maybe this time I'll see a different dog walking around on the way over. The odds of encountering something entirely new and unknown in a game world is pretty dang low, let alone something that makes all that time spent traveling totally worth it. That said, if I want to go from California to Zimbabwe I am jumping on a plane, heck if I am going from Los Angeles to Seattle I am getting on a plane. Because that's how people travel in the real world...
I don't think anyone is arguing for super convenient fast travel exactly where you want to go. There really wan't anything wrong with most of the EQ teleports (they didn't make the virtual world less immersive or compelling) and no reason to not have something similar given that Pantheon zones are going to be much larger than EQ zones ever were. Respect the time of players to some degree, so if I am going from LA to Seattle then at least let me fly into Portland and drive the rest of the way.
Here's the thing, and i know this argument is terrible, but it's so valid. If fast travel is available, and you like exploring and running, then you can always do that. No one can tske that away from you. If I hate running across the world and that's my only option.. it's going to deter me from playing.
I would love to see a modification on a flight path system (using boats, caravans, blimps??) But only after you've already discovered that area and out leveled it. Example... starting area is commonly used until round level 10... once you're 10 and explored the area, you can take a "flight path" back. This would at least limit the travel of lower level characters while still allowing higher levels that freedom to travel thru ther various zones.
Porygon said:Here's the thing, and i know this argument is terrible, but it's so valid. If fast travel is available, and you like exploring and running, then you can always do that. No one can tske that away from you. If I hate running across the world and that's my only option.. it's going to deter me from playing.
I would love to see a modification on a flight path system (using boats, caravans, blimps??) But only after you've already discovered that area and out leveled it. Example... starting area is commonly used until round level 10... once you're 10 and explored the area, you can take a "flight path" back. This would at least limit the travel of lower level characters while still allowing higher levels that freedom to travel thru ther various zones.
Completely disagree. Like most other times that argument is used, if it limits your ability to be an active member of the community/hamstrings your experience, then it's not really an *option*. No group is going to keep a spot open for me just because I want to take the scenic route instead of the fast travel route.
Tralyan said:Completely disagree. Like most other times that argument is used, if it limits your ability to be an active member of the community/hamstrings your experience, then it's not really an *option*. No group is going to keep a spot open for me just because I want to take the scenic route instead of the fast travel route.
At the same time almost no group will ever take you beyond a certain distance if the only option is the "scenic" route.
Tralyan said:Porygon said:Here's the thing, and i know this argument is terrible, but it's so valid. If fast travel is available, and you like exploring and running, then you can always do that. No one can tske that away from you. If I hate running across the world and that's my only option.. it's going to deter me from playing.
I would love to see a modification on a flight path system (using boats, caravans, blimps??) But only after you've already discovered that area and out leveled it. Example... starting area is commonly used until round level 10... once you're 10 and explored the area, you can take a "flight path" back. This would at least limit the travel of lower level characters while still allowing higher levels that freedom to travel thru ther various zones.
Completely disagree. Like most other times that argument is used, if it limits your ability to be an active member of the community/hamstrings your experience, then it's not really an *option*. No group is going to keep a spot open for me just because I want to take the scenic route instead of the fast travel route.
So then only accept group invites within a certain radius around where you are.
Only use fast travel if a group is waiting on you.
There are a ton of things you can do if you still want to take the "scenic" route. But nothing I can do if I do not.
At some time you have to be willing to sacrifice things you WANT for the greater good of the game and the rest of the community.
Also. I played wow on a classic server where at any point I could be 5mins or 25mins from a dungeon entrance (since summoning was not available early on). Alot of groups didnt mind waiting for me. I never minded waiting for them. Give them an eta when they invite you and make your way there.
Iksar said:At the same time almost no group will ever take you beyond a certain distance if the only option is the "scenic" route.
Again, I have to disagree. If fast travel is not an option, those in a group who are seeking others with a LFG tag on will know how long it'll take to travel to their location.
I suppose it depends on how the LFG tools, if any, will work in Pantheon. But in the instance where you are in a group, searching for others to fill a spot, you'll know exactly where that person is you're sending a /tell to. You're not going to send them a /tell and then say, "nevermind, you're too far, we'll just hang out and hope someone else is LFG who is close by". You'll send them a /tell with the distance and time in mind, fully aware that the scenic route IS the only option.
Porygon said:There are a ton of things you can do if you still want to take the "scenic" route. But nothing I can do if I do not.
At some time you have to be willing to sacrifice things you WANT for the greater good of the game and the rest of the community.
What this really comes down to is our differing opinions of what is, in fact, for the "greater good" of the community. You believe what you want is what's best for the greater good. I believe what I want is what's best for the greater good.
I just don't want what we already have in every other contemporary MMO out there. Easy travel.
Tralyan said:What this really comes down to is our differing opinions of what is, in fact, for the "greater good" of the community. You believe what you want is what's best for the greater good. I believe what I want is what's best for the greater good.
I just don't want what we already have in every other contemporary MMO out there. Easy travel.
Do you feel EQ ports were bad for the game?
Porting options for some measure of reduced travel time (after you have already made the trip at least one time) is net positive for the game/community and falls in line with getting players more engaged in the social/cooperative/challenging parts of the gameplay.
I'd argue it completely aligns with:
"Pantheon, therefore, will indeed bring back some of these conventional mechanics and ideas but with a fresh perspective, some tweaks and revisions. We also understand that while gamers’ tastes don’t fundamentally change over time, their situations, lives, and responsibilities do. Likewise, some game mechanics often associated with earlier MMOs involved inordinate amounts of downtime, overly severe penalties, too much competition over content and resources, and even downright boring or overly repetitive gameplay. Our intention, therefore, is not to bring back ‘everything’ from the old days, but rather to pick and choose those which make sense and are needed to make a fun, social, cooperative, and challenging game."
Porygon said:Here's the thing, and i know this argument is terrible, but it's so valid. If fast travel is available, and you like exploring and running, then you can always do that. No one can tske that away from you. If I hate running across the world and that's my only option.. it's going to deter me from playing.
It’s not just about exploring or wanting to “take a walk.” It’s also about making the rewards at destinations more noteworthy.
Imagine two games that are equal in every way except that one has fast-travel and the other doesn’t. Without fast travel, it takes five minutes to get to any city, dungeon, or camp, regardless of where the player is. I know that this in itself doesn’t make sense but bear with me because it isn't the point of the hypothetical.
Which game would deliver a greater feeling of accomplishment? Obviously, the game that doesn’t have fast-travel. There would be a greater feeling of accomplishment for almost all aspects of the game.
And which game would feel bigger? Obviously, the game without fast-travel.
And which game would feel more “real”? Obviously, the game without fast-travel.
So, what is the point of fast-travel? Put simply, it’s for lazy players with short attention spans.
As for your argument, I don’t agree with it because it can be applied to all sorts of things, leading to undesirable results. Using your argument, a person could say that each player should be allowed to purchase cheap yet extremely powerful items from merchants, but that it's up to the player to decide if they're going to buy them. That’s essentially the heart of your argument. If some people want to put more effort into traveling, then they should be allowed to, but if other people don’t want to put as much effort into it, then they’ll be able to use fast-travel. I disagree with this notion.
Iksar said:Tralyan said:What this really comes down to is our differing opinions of what is, in fact, for the "greater good" of the community. You believe what you want is what's best for the greater good. I believe what I want is what's best for the greater good.
I just don't want what we already have in every other contemporary MMO out there. Easy travel.
Do you feel EQ ports were bad for the game?
Porting options for some measure of reduced travel time (after you have already made the trip at least one time) is net positive for the game/community and falls in line with getting players more engaged in the social/cooperative/challenging parts of the gameplay.
I think it might be a good idea to make my stance known before discussing further. Sounds like we're having a miscommunication of some kind. My earlier threads were in response to Nanfoodles point about being unable to locate a group in an evening of playing in P99 - a server where travel is ridiculously easy compared to classic EQ. They were NOT me saying I wanted absolutely no fast travel options at all. I am perfectly OK with having ports such as was done in classic EQ, with wizard spires and druid rings scattered throughout the world in various zones. I'm OK with only certain classes having the ability to port, and I'm ok with other players paying those classes for that service. I'm OK with that method of travel being supplemented by SoW, Evacs, Boats and possibly mounts.
I would PREFER these portals (rings and spires) to be in places that are dangerous, or for the ports to cost more (perhaps if a reagant was needed to cast) so as to make them slightly less accessible until you've reached a level where gold/plat/whatever is more easily attained. The reason for that is because, as has been said earlier by another poster, if you go into Project99 you'll learn how ridiculously easy it is to find a port for cheap - HOWEVER, I also concede that the reason for that is mostly because of how long P99 has been stagnant, forcing the economy to be a wonky mess. It's insanely easy to make platinum at earlier levels there, as opposed to early Everquest in 1999, so it's not the greatest comparison. That said, I'd be OK without my aforementioned addendums of dangerous port locations and reagants since I imagine Pantheon won't have that problem to such an extreme.
So to answer your question, I do not feel EQ ports were bad for the game as it was at its inception and up until Luclin. I'd be very happy with that in Pantheon.
Edit: What I am absolutely not ok with is any kind of teleport option, anywhere, for any reason, that does not involve another player. I.E. Spires on a timer that were introduced with Luclin, PoK books, etc.
manofyesterday said:So, what is the point of fast-travel? Put simply, it’s for lazy players with short attention spans.
It's just not that simple.
If there is always significant travel time between nearest dungeon, nearest unexplored area, nearest friends, nearest trade center, nearest bank and nearest vendor you are going to have to get used to spending significant portions of most gaming sessions travelling between the things you actually want to do.
You might notice I include "unexplored area" as one of the list of travel destinations. Yeah, travelling to distant lands can be a fun challenge in itself. The first time or two. Generally, though, travelling is not exploring. Travelling is travelling.
Regular significant travel times would simply be a tedious obstacle to what most people want to do most of the time. Depending on the length of your play session, how busy a server is, where you logged out and what you'd like to do it might often simply not even be worth logging in.
Putting something behind a 'boredom gate' is not a good way to give things worth and not finding a repeating running simulator meaningful doesn't make you "lazy".