I don't recall it being too much of an issue in live EQ as I never remember a time in which there weren't at least a handful of groups in places like Blackburrow/Crushbone and places like Orc Hill in GFay or the Orc camps in East Commonlands (or dervish camps in North Ro). Depending on how progeny plays out (or just alts in general) we might have an ever greater turnover than ever of players going through early/mid level content. Timelock/private servers are a bad example because they tend to hold more power gamers & min/maxers who sit at high levels and only level fully twinked solo capable alts or that just box their own parties altogether, it helps that the game has been entirely dissected over the past 18 years.
One other thing that can be done is adding new races to the game. That certainly causes a hearty surge in low level players any time it happens, same with adding classes.
What I've heard: -
Mentoring will allow higher level characters to more easily join newbies.
Zones are intended to have multiple level 'bands' of content.
Progeny system is probably/possibly going to encourage high level folks to start over.
What I hope for: -
Newbie zones will be right next to the auction house, bank and crafting areas (which will be close together).
There will be lots of character slots per account encouraging alts.
There will be lots of players constantly flooding into the game as people who wouldn't ordinarily play old-school style hear how freaking great it is.
Ghroznak said: I played EQ and a number of other older MMOs. One common thing to see, especially when going back, is completely empty newbie areas. I saw the same returning to EQ on timelock servers. Started on Lockjaw and low end zones were busy. Then IRL pulled me away for a long time. Came back to Lockjaw and newbie zones; deserted. This means a lot of areas are left unused and wasted. It also means starting out in a game is very hard, frustrating and not fun. Especially in games which require grouping. Has this been looked into for Pantheon? I worry that it will start out fun, then one year later when starting a new character there is noone around to group with...
Well, over time, EQ just grew, more and more zones added, and as the player base dropped, there was way more space then players. Add in that at some point, games just don't aquire NEW players, not many people are looking for games 10+ years old to play for a first time.
This is a subject that I am very passionate about. I also have a problem with empty starting areas. I think that by having empty starting areas, where new players enter the game and see no one, it really hurts a mature game. What I mean is, by the time the newbie areas are empty, the game is older and likely has a hard time recruiting new players. Could this be one of the reasons? Absolutely, yes. If you are a new player and do not see anyone when you log in, is there a chance that might scare you away because you think no one is playing?
My belief is that this happens, with almost 100% causation, by how developers design expansion content.
When the game is in the original state, players return to their starting city to train, bank, buy, sell, and craft. This is typically because they have the most familiarity, best faction, and possibly access to things they cannot find elsewhere.
When expansion content is added, often times the new areas include villages or cities that have all of the amenities of home, which completely eliminates the reason to return home.
I believe the solution is major player hub areas should not be added to expansion content and that there should be things in a home city player cannot be found elsewhere. Expansion content should focus exclusively on adventure areas and leave the original cities as the primary place for players to do business.
*Edit*
Just for clarification, I am talking about starting areas/starting cities and not specifically low level zones.
bigdogchris said:snip
I believe the solution is major player hub areas should not be added to expansion content and that there should be things in a home city player cannot be found elsewhere. Expansion content should focus exclusively on adventure areas and leave the original cities as the primary place for players to do business.
Good points all! I agree that seeing an empty world is a huge detterent for me especially. Even if I'm gonna solo, I wanna see other people if the game isn't built with all of the things that make single player fun.
I would add that it would also really help if existing leveling zones were added onto with each level expansion, so the newest high levels still have reason to come to the same zones.
Iksar said:I don't recall it being too much of an issue in live EQ as I never remember a time in which there weren't at least a handful of groups in places like Blackburrow/Crushbone and places like Orc Hill in GFay or the Orc camps in East Commonlands (or dervish camps in North Ro). Depending on how progeny plays out (or just alts in general) we might have an ever greater turnover than ever of players going through early/mid level content. Timelock/private servers are a bad example because they tend to hold more power gamers & min/maxers who sit at high levels and only level fully twinked solo capable alts or that just box their own parties altogether, it helps that the game has been entirely dissected over the past 18 years.
One other thing that can be done is adding new races to the game. That certainly causes a hearty surge in low level players any time it happens, same with adding classes.
You go to one of the older servers, like Tunare where I played in -99 to 2004, the newbie areas are 100% empty.
As for the timelock servers there are some min/max powergamers on those, but my experience on Lockjaw and now on Coirnav is that there are plenty people who just want to play casually, have fun and enjoy the old skool zones again. For instance on Unrest zone on Coirnav yesterday I was in /pick (instance) #62, which means the zone was bustling with players.
Over time though as the new expansions unlocked on Lockjaw players emigrated from the old zones and they become entirely bereft of players... just as it happened on Tunare... and just as it will happen on Coirnav as well.
philo said:There are a few systems that are being put into place that might aid this a little (mentor/progeny etc), but I'm curious what the OPs suggested solution is? You pointed out a problem Ghroz, how would you fix it? Do you have a solution?
I don't have a solution, but I recognize it as an issue as well as it being detrimental to the longevity of a game when the starting areas are devoid of players, especially if a game requires you to group to get the best progression experience.
What I can do is understand why Everquests newbie zones and 'old world' became deserted.
Two primary things at play are:
1. Without influx of new players the established playerbase becomes top-heavy. That is to say everyone eventually reaches max level and then only plays their alts in pre-organized groups with already established guildmates or network of friends. These guild-groups and friend-groups are largely inaccessible to new players, plus a lot of experienced players (who are usually twinked and massively geared and buffed by other high level characts, alt accounts or friend/guildies) don't really want new playesr with poor skill and poor gear to join them.
2. The way the developer introduces content. In Everquest the new content was largely linear stacking. New content rarely offered content for new / low level players. It was mostly content aimed at pleasing the top-end / end-level player base. This caused the playerbase to keep shifting from one expansion to the next, thus leaving the previous content to rot away unused.
To start with the 2nd point. One way to prevent playerbase from constantly leaving old areas behind is to introduce new content within or near the newbie areas as well as introducing lateral content, meaning content for ALL levels and not just linear content where the new content is only for top levels.
What happened in Everquest?
With the introduction of Kunark nearly everyone shifted over to that continent. There were new zones, new content, better gear. Surely this didn't happen all in one day where everyone packed up and left, however it did shift over time and the old zones were left behind. Then came Velious... and again, the playerbase shifted to a new continent. This meant the old zones became even more abandoned as players largely went to Kunark or Velious since that's where the groups were. And then we get Planes of Power, with the metro grand central station in the Nexus which enabled people to travel everywhere. Old areas were even more abandoned and everyone went gunning for the new raid bosses.
Really late, in Legends of Ykesha, they actually introduced newbie gear quests in the old zones, e.g. the Spurned cloth set in Neriak for casters. But adding lateral content for lower levels at that time was too little, too late.
The major problem is when new continents and areas are added and draw the entire playerbase away from the old areas. Surely it was fun and exciting when Kunark came out, when Velious came out and when Planes of Power came out. We all loved it, we all went there, we all had fun and noone really thought about how it affected the old zones and the game overall. Simply because we were a bit blind to that situation since Everquest was one of the forerunners to MMO games and similar situations had not been seen before.
But today we have 19 years of history to look back on, within dozens of MMO games. And among the older ones the situation is largely the same... old / starter zones are empty and abandoned.
For new zones to be active and full if life in the long run there needs to be motivations for players to hang out there, motivations for players to start new characters. Drawing players away by introducing content in far-away places will kill the newbie areas. We have seen this time and time again. Everquest II did exactly the same mistake as Everquest. New continents added, new content in far-off places... and the old world zones becomes nothing more than dead and wasted code.
I don't have all the answers, but I do have the history and enough foresight to see that if Pantheon doesn't plan and design to avoid "dead zones" then it will happen in Pantheon as well. Maybe not in the first year, or second year, but it will happen.
Saicred said:https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2226/zones-levels
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2384/one-great-benefit-to-having-zones-instead-of-chunks
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4250/zones-with-different-exits-than-the-entrance
These might help a little.
Thanks, I will definitely take the time to read through those. Appreciate you sharing the links. I'm fairly new on the forums and following the details of this game, hence my open questions and such.
BeaverBiscuit said:bigdogchris said:snip
I believe the solution is major player hub areas should not be added to expansion content and that there should be things in a home city player cannot be found elsewhere. Expansion content should focus exclusively on adventure areas and leave the original cities as the primary place for players to do business.
Good points all! I agree that seeing an empty world is a huge detterent for me especially. Even if I'm gonna solo, I wanna see other people if the game isn't built with all of the things that make single player fun.
I would add that it would also really help if existing leveling zones were added onto with each level expansion, so the newest high levels still have reason to come to the same zones.
And really, the "solution" that has come up in past games is make a single starting area and put everyone there to consolidate.
I’m sorry, but that is just putting on a band aid and not addressing the root cause.
Right now, before launch, is the time for the VR team to consider how they will handle this and decide how that they will build the game that keeps people around starting areas.
*Edit*
Just for clarification, I am talking about starting areas/starting cities and not specifically low level zones.
bigdogchris said:And really, the "solution" that has come up in past games is make a single starting area and put everyone there to consolidate.
I’m sorry, but that is just putting on a band aid and not addressing the root cause.
Right now, before launch, is the time for the VR team to consider how they will handle this and decide how that they will build the game that keeps people around starting areas.
Maybe I'm misinterpreting them, but I have the sense that VR is already addressing this by mixing low-level and high-level content in the same zone - sometimes even in the same dungeon. I think that has to be because they're aware of the potential for empty zones if they don't give higher level characters good reason to go back.
People are more informed about EQ than in the past and there was never a built-in reason to return to newbie zones. Once you hit Luclin the activity moved to the moon. Once you hit PoP quick-travel flat out removes any reason to travel anywhere unless you need to.
Pantheon will have MASSIVE zones with scaled progressive content so those zones will have newbies, low, mid, and higher level content. Imagine if Lower Guk, Upper Guk, Inno Swamp and Frog City and Troll City were all in one zone. People would probably stick around that zone for a while.
bigdogchris said:This is a subject that I am very passionate about. I also have a problem with empty starting areas. I think that by having empty starting areas, where new players enter the game and see no one, it really hurts a mature game. What I mean is, by the time the newbie areas are empty, the game is older and likely has a hard time recruiting new players. Could this be one of the reasons? Absolutely, yes. If you are a new player and do not see anyone when you log in, is there a chance that might scare you away because you think no one is playing?
My belief is that this happens, with almost 100% causation, by how developers design expansion content.
When the game is in the original state, players return to their starting city to train, bank, buy, sell, and craft. This is typically because they have the most familiarity, best faction, and possibly access to things they cannot find elsewhere.
When expansion content is added, often times the new areas include villages or cities that have all of the amenities of home, which completely eliminates the reason to return home.
I believe the solution is major player hub areas should not be added to expansion content and that there should be things in a home city player cannot be found elsewhere. Expansion content should focus exclusively on adventure areas and leave the original cities as the primary place for players to do business.
Totally agree with this.
EQ handled this great for the first few expansions. Kunark and Velious added two new cities, Thurgadin and Cabilis, that had most of the same amenities that previous hubs did in the old world, and yet the newbie areas continued to be populated.
Why?
One, because while Cabilis was indeed a new hub, it was the Iksar hub where pretty much every other race was KOS. And two, because while both did have banks, vendors, and crafting stations - they did NOT have guilds for every available class. Three, Thurgadin, while being available to more races for vendoring and banking than Cabilis, was in a much higher level area of the game than old world cities, making it much less accessible for those below Lvl 30. Four, lack of auction houses.
Once Luclin and PoP came out, auctioning became centralized in the bazaar, class trainers could be found nearby, along with vendors and banks, and travelling to those central locations became much easier. As a result, the population began leaving the old world in droves - including the newbie areas.
So, it's not so much the expansions that are the problem. You CAN create new "hubs", they just need to be more specialized hubs. Places like Thurgadin that are harder to get to and don't have everything centralized. Places like Cabilis, where the guards will drop you on sight. That's how you create expansions and keep newbie areas populated. Quit centralizing every little thing, and quit making every little thing too accessible in expansions.
Making low level zones relevant to everyone...that's a challenge pretty much every MMORPG has faced...
What are the options to combat it right now ? The popular go-to solution seems to be the scaling of mobs to your level, which is, well, really lame.
I'd like to see something where certain activities bring benefits to a town/faction/area. I used to play FFXI. Back in the day (not sure if it's still like that), there was a concept that I really liked - depending on how many monsters were killed in a given zone, by a given faction, would affect certain things, such as what NPC vendors have for sale. Always thought it was a nice concept. So why not bring that up a notch ?
What I see the most in this thread is people thinking about mostly combat. How about a starter or low level area where, for example, there is faction struggle between Orcs and Humans. Human soldiers (NPCs) need gear to fight the skirmishes. Depending on quality of weapons and armor provided through crafting in the zone, it would affect how well the guards do. Opening up certain privileges in the area...maybe gearing them up fully allows that garrison to be under Human control...in there could be a vendor that has some better wares.
Then maybe there are little quests to be done by both low and high level characters as well to help the warring effort. Sabotaging the plans of the orcs could open up something else, like finding a weakness in the fortress, but you need a ballistae built, which can only be built by a higher level character. Then shooting the fortress, a special dungeon could be open in the wall, where a section of it is for low level characters, and another for high level characters.
Making low level and high level characters work together in every facet, not just combat, would help create an environment where you would see population in all zones. But, for this to happen, other than fun factor alone, content and rewards need to be relevant. So in the example above...the lower level people could get tasks to gather supplies to build the ballistae, which then the higher level players would use to build it, as opposed to have to use their own resources.
In order to keep that relevant, you may need to have that NPC with better wares not always have the same selection, and having limited supplies...loot in the zone that gets opened up by the lower and higher characters need to be relevant, and probably not static. If the general at the end of the high level area always drop the sword of impeding jaundice...people will stop going as soon as they get it, or that new content is released with better swords than this one.
That is why I'm a big fan of non-static loot tables...at that point you do the content for the content itself, and the loot might never be the same, instead of targetting one specific mob because that mob has a 10% chance of dropping that piece of gear you want, and it's the only place it can drop.
Of course needs to be smart about non-static loot tables...you don't want a level 7 boss kobold to drop a level 50 sword...
But if what you want can drop from 20 boss mobs scattered across the world as opposed to 1 or 2...even with different % chances for each...wouldn't you be more tempted to just go with your friends, as opposed to "Well, yesterday I helped John get his sword, and tonight I really want to get my ring of vanilla smell, and it drops only in the jungle from that one Witchdoctor, so yeah, I won't be going with you fighting the drake that drops your cape, good luck"?
Anyway...not sure I'm explaining myself all that well but...I tried, lol.
Ghroznak said:philo said:There are a few systems that are being put into place that might aid this a little (mentor/progeny etc), but I'm curious what the OPs suggested solution is? You pointed out a problem Ghroz, how would you fix it? Do you have a solution?
I don't have a solution, but I recognize it as an issue as well as it being detrimental to the longevity of a game when the starting areas are devoid of players, especially if a game requires you to group to get the best progression experience.
What I can do is understand why Everquests newbie zones and 'old world' became deserted.
Two primary things at play are:
1. Without influx of new players the established playerbase becomes top-heavy. That is to say everyone eventually reaches max level and then only plays their alts in pre-organized groups with already established guildmates or network of friends. These guild-groups and friend-groups are largely inaccessible to new players, plus a lot of experienced players (who are usually twinked and massively geared and buffed by other high level characts, alt accounts or friend/guildies) don't really want new playesr with poor skill and poor gear to join them.
2. The way the developer introduces content. In Everquest the new content was largely linear stacking. New content rarely offered content for new / low level players. It was mostly content aimed at pleasing the top-end / end-level player base. This caused the playerbase to keep shifting from one expansion to the next, thus leaving the previous content to rot away unused.
To start with the 2nd point. One way to prevent playerbase from constantly leaving old areas behind is to introduce new content within or near the newbie areas as well as introducing lateral content, meaning content for ALL levels and not just linear content where the new content is only for top levels.
What happened in Everquest?
With the introduction of Kunark nearly everyone shifted over to that continent. There were new zones, new content, better gear. Surely this didn't happen all in one day where everyone packed up and left, however it did shift over time and the old zones were left behind. Then came Velious... and again, the playerbase shifted to a new continent. This meant the old zones became even more abandoned as players largely went to Kunark or Velious since that's where the groups were. And then we get Planes of Power, with the metro grand central station in the Nexus which enabled people to travel everywhere. Old areas were even more abandoned and everyone went gunning for the new raid bosses.
Really late, in Legends of Ykesha, they actually introduced newbie gear quests in the old zones, e.g. the Spurned cloth set in Neriak for casters. But adding lateral content for lower levels at that time was too little, too late.
The major problem is when new continents and areas are added and draw the entire playerbase away from the old areas. Surely it was fun and exciting when Kunark came out, when Velious came out and when Planes of Power came out. We all loved it, we all went there, we all had fun and noone really thought about how it affected the old zones and the game overall. Simply because we were a bit blind to that situation since Everquest was one of the forerunners to MMO games and similar situations had not been seen before.
But today we have 19 years of history to look back on, within dozens of MMO games. And among the older ones the situation is largely the same... old / starter zones are empty and abandoned.
For new zones to be active and full if life in the long run there needs to be motivations for players to hang out there, motivations for players to start new characters. Drawing players away by introducing content in far-away places will kill the newbie areas. We have seen this time and time again. Everquest II did exactly the same mistake as Everquest. New continents added, new content in far-off places... and the old world zones becomes nothing more than dead and wasted code.
I don't have all the answers, but I do have the history and enough foresight to see that if Pantheon doesn't plan and design to avoid "dead zones" then it will happen in Pantheon as well. Maybe not in the first year, or second year, but it will happen.
If you listen to some of the livestreams...the Devs have mentioned this. That latest dungeon Black Rose keep was created with multi leveled players in mind. The higher you go in that Keep, the higher level the mobs are.
So if you are on the bottom floor, level 20 or whatever, be aware if you pull the guys you see upstairs..behind the railings, that they will be higher level than you, and could also cause a train. :) This has been discussed from the early years of these forums opening, things mentioned such as...reasons for high levels to come back to starter cities..things like high level dungeons below newbie cities...were thrown out as ideas for the Devs to consider.
Ludek said:I'd like to see something where certain activities bring benefits to a town/faction/area.
I love this idea so much! I can imagine there being some kind of region-wide buff (where a region includes some or all of the zones in an area around a hub) where the buff scaled on the amount of activity taking place in the hub. If that scale had diminishing returns, it wouldn't do much good to have 10,000 players being active in one hub, but it would be fantastic to have 2,000 active players in each of 5 hubs. (Numbers totally made up, and probably totally unrealistic)
Did I say I love this idea? *grins*
EQ was like a textbook example of how to kill newbie areas in an MMO.
For me i want to explore each and every zone to see the differences in the grass, trees, and mobs, but i want it to feel like the world at its base makes sense. I want to feel like if im in one area there is enough content that i could go all the way to max level with local dungeons, but i want many different options. The worst thing EQ had going for it was that you had to go destination shopping for certain level ranges. I want to go destination shopping because of other reasons and not because i am a certain level. If i can get a taste of each and every region of the game at lower levels (within reason - NON raid zones) then i can pick which zone or area i want to stick with for a long while. This gives each race the chance to level up to raid level in distinct seperate areas and then coalesce with the guild into the major raid zones.
For me, the ability to change location without the fear of a level range will open the world up that much more.
Addition: Why do new Expac's always favor new continents over retrofitting old content with new zones? There is a sea and a sky and you can dig pretty deep if you are motivated. Plane of Sky was smart - and you fell into Freeport! Dig below a city or region until you find a vast Geofront.
Nihimon said:I love this idea so much! I can imagine there being some kind of region-wide buff (where a region includes some or all of the zones in an area around a hub) where the buff scaled on the amount of activity taking place in the hub. If that scale had diminishing returns, it wouldn't do much good to have 10,000 players being active in one hub, but it would be fantastic to have 2,000 active players in each of 5 hubs. (Numbers totally made up, and probably totally unrealistic)
Did I say I love this idea? *grins*
Something similar could happen sometime after release. To quote Brad from a discussion about player housing:
Hesitant to say much because all of this is post-launch, regardless of the details.
The general idea on how to make housing work in a non-instanced world is this: the location of the house/outpost/player owned structure is not fixed. It's more like covered wagons moving west back in the old days in RL. A group of people (likely a guild, but don't automatically assume huge uber-guilds only) moves into a level appropriate area with the intent of staying there a while, learning the zones both outdoors and the dungeons in the region. In certain areas, if not already occupied, the group/guild can lay down an Outpost (I'll just use that term for now). The Outpost would offer the group a place to camp out, to meet up at, etc. Items could be stored in some building types. NPC Vendors could be placed. NPC Guards could be hired to watch the structures as they have 'hitpoints' and will be attacked by wandering mobs... the closer to a dangerous area you choose to place your Outpost the greater the chance it will be attacked often. Buildings can be destroyed and it would be costly to fix them. Keeping an Outpost up and in-game would require upkeep costs. Other players can access and benefit from using certain structures -- there would be both public and private building types. The owners would actually need other players in order to have a functional and beneficial Outpost -- this makes sure more casual gamers, or perhaps hard core players but those not affiliated with their own Outpost, benefit as well. Interdependence, as usual, is key to these ideas just as it is behind most things Pantheon.
When you out level the area you pack up your Outpost and make the trek to the next region, place and build up your Outpost yet again. Some aspects of the Outpost must be restarted or rebuilt each time, while others will save. For example, a residence could be decorated just like in the instanced housing you've seen in many MMOs.
One of the very key components is, of course, that it doesn't stay in one place and can only be built in areas designated and that make sense. This way the Outposts you come across will not always be there, we wouldn't need to allocate large regions ala Vanguard that just get filled with housing. Additionally, while you can decorate and have people over for a beer just like you can with instanced housing, the Outpost also serves a purpose from a gameplay standpoint, again for both the owners and for visitors. What benefits? We've not dug that deep yet, we certainly have a lot of ideas but it's far too early to start listing them -- that said, would love to hear your ideas.
So transient, not static. Serves cosmetic/customization desires as well as helps both you and visitors from a gameplay standpoint. When you out level the region and move, it then opens up the opportunity for another group/guild to move into that area. Zones are already huge and with Outposts not having a fixed location there should be opportunity for many to build them. And for those who can't or won't, you're still needed. As stated, upkeeps and perhaps having to rebuild or fix structures creates a great item and money sink. Will there be some competition between groups/guilds when an area frees up? Probably, but with the size of the world we hope that the competition is not egregious. Pantheon is already being designed such that there is some competition, not too much nor too little, in terms of getting to a boss mob, camping, etc. Outposts are similar in that way.
Do Outposts completely replace the notion of a home or guild house in an instance? Yes. In the shared world? Likely yes -- housing with fixed locations have been problematic and the idea of having to pack them up and move them is pretty key. Ships would likely work similarly in some ways -- must be built, have upkeeps, can be damaged or sunk, allow for travel over large bodies of water, disappear when you dock (probably), can hold items just like your bank or your Outpost.
Ok, that's as far as I'm going to go -- again, nothing here set in stone and absolutely post-launch. I know it's fun to talk about the Grand Vision (plans for the game post-launch, expansions, etc.), but obviously these systems aren't getting a lot of thought and planning behind them right now as that would make no sense.