In the most recent stream with Hiveleader, there were some nasty NPC mages casting a Frost AoE Nuke that also rooted the player.
When the player took the “impact”/damage of the spell a blue mist appeared around the players that where caught in range of the AoE which is good.
This is the AoE “blue mist” spell effect I’m talking about –
But something that got my attention was the lack of “ground AoE effect” that indicate where AoE spell point of impact was.
By that I mean something similar to this AoE effect was lacking –
In the picture you can see the “point of impact/origin/target” of the spell is Machail, but you can clearly see it’s an AoE effect that’s hitting other characters, by adding something similar to this effect to the NPC AoE abilities it will make the fight seem a bit more impactful, and convey to the viewer/spectator/player what’s going on a bit better, instead of AoE damage simply “happening out of nowhere”
Another similar thing I noticed was Fion (the toughest mini-boss we’ve seen yet?) had some AoE spell, but they also lacked visual effects, making it seem that damage is just happening out of nowhere. Adding a spell effect for her Fan of knives spell, and a smoke bomb animation for her sleep ability would be really awesome, to convey what’s going on in the fight better, instead of damage and boss abilities damage simply coming “out of nowhere”.
Thanks for the feedback. I wouldnt worry too much about the lack of spell effects. We plan to do a large pass in the future and have more fitting visuals for an ability like Fan of Knives. Just not quite on our high priority list yet, but it will get there.
Convo said:Thanks for the feedback. I wouldnt worry too much about the lack of spell effects. We plan to do a large pass in the future and have more fitting visuals for an ability like Fan of Knives. Just not quite on our high priority list yet, but it will get there.
This is why I seldom watch streams, I just listen to them. I'll view a stream for a couple minutes to see how the visuals are coming along, or any UI enhancements, but after that, I background the stream and listen for news or new info.
Convo said:Thanks for the feedback. I wouldnt worry too much about the lack of spell effects. We plan to do a large pass in the future and have more fitting visuals for an ability like Fan of Knives. Just not quite on our high priority list yet, but it will get there.
Definitely good to hear. There were a few times when there was little clue what had hurt the players - also Fion's AoE could do with more visual oomph.
I certainly would not want anything like 'telegraphs' on the ground, but please do let those particles (and audio/text cues) fly!
disposalist said:Definitely good to hear. There were a few times when there was little clue what had hurt the players - also Fion's AoE could do with more visual oomph.
I certainly would not want anything like 'telegraphs' on the ground, but please do let those particles (and audio/text cues) fly!
Compleltly agree, I don't wanna see anything like 'telegraphs' on the ground, that tell you were every ability is going to land 5-10 secs before they're casted, that type of gameplay is terrible in my opinion.
Player should need to move out of AoE spells (like fire patches, rains of fire, blizzards, hurricanes, etc), but let them get hit by those AoE spells first and take 1 or 2 ticks of unavoidable damage while they're running out of the spells effect AoE area, (or stay in the fire doing damage and dying XD), players that are not paying that much attention might take 3-4 hits, making the healers life even more difficult.
Whether telegraphs are good or bad may depend on the nature of the enemy ability.
In general I agree with jpedrote for normal damage spells but if the game has anything so severe as to one-shot players or even two-shot them, that is a different story entirely.
An encounter where a wipe is totally unavoidable unless you know the encounter from past failures or on-line research isn't my idea of a good encounter. It gets us to the FFXIV style of dungeon where you don't win or lose based on skill and general knowledge you win or lose based on knowledge of what pixel to move to at what time in what order.
If a spell can do such damage that good healing and alert movement away from its area of effect are *not* enough to prevent a wipe, there should be some warning. Not necessarily a large colored circle on the ground - I don't want that under any circumstances - but maybe the boss saying something like "Death comes to all now!" to give a warning that you had better interrupt NOW or move behind a pillar NOW or die. Or maybe a casting bar indicating what the boss is doing so that you have a few seconds to interrupt or move.
@Dorotea
Completly agree that if it's a one-shot or really high damage ability, there should be a way of detecting the ability being cast, voice lines like "Death comes to all now!" combined with noticable casting/movement animatios would be perfect.
Examples:
Boss casting a high damage deadly "Bladestorm" AoE ability that's going to hit the melee players, he could say "Bleed you wretched mongrels!" and start raising his sowrd above his head, before the "bladestorm" starts.
Dragon casting a "Firebreath" cone ability, voice/text line "Burn you insolent fools!" and the animation, the dragon start lighhint up with fire effects around his head, slightly raises is front legs and brings his head back before spewing the firebreath.
I think that having unavoidable damage in boss fights is good, at least for 1 or 2 ticks that does 20-30% of your HP, nothing that one shots the players, just envorimental damage to keep people alert and the healers on their toes, fire patches, on the ground, rains of fire, ice comets, diseased grounds, etc, things that get thrown to make then move a bit, if they're focused they only takes 1-2 ticks of damage, if they were distracted they might take 3-4 and make the healers mad XD.
dorotea said:An encounter where a wipe is totally unavoidable unless you know the encounter from past failures or on-line research isn't my idea of a good encounter.
I'm a little torn on this, but I think that may come down do your use of "totally unavoidable".
Let's consider the Fion Iridia fight that's been featured in several streams now. It's obviously extremely difficult. Imagine a group where everyone was at least at the same level as Fion Iridia, where the group composition happened to be appropriate (two healers), and where the group had a lot of experience playing at a high level of execution together (devs are notorious for not being the best players - no offense to the devs). I suspect such a group would have a reasonable chance (probably not 50%, but 20% seems fair) of being able to react appropriately and winning the encounter - with no spoilers - the first time they ran it. In fact, I suspect that a lot of players will watch those streams and decide it's a really good idea for casters to **always** stand well away from the mobs being tanked.
That said, I actually think it's perfectly reasonable for those odds to drop to 1%, or lower, in raids.
The content isn't challenging unless there's a real risk of failure even when you execute your plan. And there's no way to know your plan was wrong until you try it.
I'll close by saying an encounter where most "good" groups succeed most of the time is almost by definition not a challenging encounter.
Nihimon said:dorotea said:An encounter where a wipe is totally unavoidable unless you know the encounter from past failures or on-line research isn't my idea of a good encounter.
I'm a little torn on this, but I think that may come down do your use of "totally unavoidable".
Let's consider the Fion Iridia fight that's been featured in several streams now. It's obviously extremely difficult. Imagine a group where everyone was at least at the same level as Fion Iridia, where the group composition happened to be appropriate (two healers), and where the group had a lot of experience playing at a high level of execution together (devs are notorious for not being the best players - no offense to the devs). I suspect such a group would have a reasonable chance (probably not 50%, but 20% seems fair) of being able to react appropriately and winning the encounter - with no spoilers - the first time they ran it. In fact, I suspect that a lot of players will watch those streams and decide it's a really good idea for casters to **always** stand well away from the mobs being tanked.
That said, I actually think it's perfectly reasonable for those odds to drop to 1%, or lower, in raids.
The content isn't challenging unless there's a real risk of failure even when you execute your plan. And there's no way to know your plan was wrong until you try it.
I'll close by saying an encounter where most "good" groups succeed most of the time is almost by definition not a challenging encounter.
I agree, people now are too used to fight designs where "if you do goods, you succeed", with poor RNG factor. The difficulty is only tied to the performances and there is no need to be "at the best and with goods odds" to win a fight. Just to learn and repeat a pattern and bam, loot.
Challenging is fine. My concern isn't with a fight where the boss (and allies) do a lot of damage, my concern is with a fight where its know the specific mechanics or die.
Knowing that a caster should stand at a good distance unless there is a reason to do otherwise is fairly basic.
Knowing that behind the mob is usually better than right in front is fairly basic.
Knowing that next to the tank is a spot to avoid unless there is a need to be there is fairly basic.
Knowing that if you start taking damage maybe you are standing in a spot you don't really want to be is fairly basic.
A good group can do a lot of things to improve survivability. But if the boss casts "kill all characters that aren't behind a pillar" and there is NO way to know this is happening other than from past encounters or reading that when the boss hits 25% it does this then I have a problem. Even the best group that is having a really lucky fight is dead if they don't know the script. I hate those fights. Give the group a chance to interrupt. Give the group a chance to move. It doesn't need to be a huge red circle on the floor 10 seconds before the spell is cast but have some hint that some deep poop is incoming with enough time for a quick and alert player to react. Otherwise there is no reward for being quick and alert and having precisely the right abilities on your quickbar ready to use.
dorotea said:... my concern is with a fight where its know the specific mechanics or die.
...
But if the boss casts "kill all characters that aren't behind a pillar" and there is NO way to know this is happening other than from past encounters or reading that when the boss hits 25% it does this then I have a problem.
I totally get that. I used to have extremely strong feelings along those same lines. But, when I tried to think about how it would actually work to give the players the information they need to make a reasonable decision in the middle of the fight, I had to conclude it wasn't practical, and whatever systems were put in place to try would end up looking a lot like the telegraphs on the section of ground you really need to not be standing in, and giving the player a few seconds to move out. Those mechanics leave me cold.
I spent a lot of time thinking about how to apply something like Vanguard's Diplomacy system (in general, a solo-able NPC-interaction system) to unlock clues to a logic puzzle that, when fully solved, would reveal some portion of a boss fight's mechanics. I thought that kind of thing might appeal to a certain type of player, and could be an interesting way to give players a way to be prepared for a boss fight without just dying over and over until they figure it out - which always struck me as kind of immersion-breaking. I still think a system like this would be totally awesome.
Honestly, though, as I was watching that CohhCarnage stream from Halnir Cave, I had a bit of an epiphany - it's about the players, not so much their characters and the game world. The process where we keep trying really challenging content over and over until we discover the secrets to success - including especially all the jokes we make as we wipe and recover - is a bonding process for the actual people playing the game.
I'm not saying this matches your own position, but I always had the feeling that whatever game I was playing should be a "realistic" medieval fantasy simulator, where characters just don't die over and over - thus the sense of it being immersion-breaking. I still feel that way to a degree, but I've also come to the conclusion that such a simulator can't be compatible with "challenging content".
Bit of a rant there - sorry. Do you have any concrete suggestions for how to avoid the problem encounters you're worried about that doesn't result in most groups succeeding most of the time?
Just don't make AOE be instal kill. Make it pressure the healer, so mana conservation and possible damage reduction will play in favor. However, your tank allways have the risk to be combo-ed at the bad moment and it ends up a wipe because no one will be tough enough to take the blows.
If your tank is too squishy, or your party lack healing support, or the fight is too long, your healer should be having a hard time maintaining everyone alive and end up loosing either the tank, either every DPS one by one until they are only the two of them, maybe too low on damage to succeed.
This game is about conservative mana, where the management will surpass the frenzy to spend it all, and the healers mana allways was a big factor in "can we take that fight or not", as much as the tank's sturdyness, or the DPS power to cut down the fight to the slightest amount possible.
I think everything is just about "fine tuning" more than "know what will happen or die".
However, I am quite sceptical about spells hitting only melee fighters and avoiding ranged, as it usually ends up making melees a chore and favor heavily ranged toons composition. Melee seems to be about sustained damage and mobility while distance are about managing casting time and burst. If nothing in the equation tradeoff the melee exposure to damage, they may end neglected because they are a high risk low reward. Give them something to dampen the damage they take significally or lessen the damage the boss can deal, or it might end like some heavy EQ1 fights (Thinking about Lord Inquisitor Seru or Fennin Ro) : Nobody in melee except the tank or you will just die in a few seconds.