So I love the old school style of MMOs - Runescape and Vanilla WoW got me hooked on grind, teamwork needed, dedication and REAL competetiveness in games. Getting or unlocking high level or rare loot felt like a real achievement, and wasn't immediately "trash" as the new, mega item is released and 50 people just bought it on your server.
I have alot of really good memories of these games, and so the old school hype around this game has got me really excited.
Now into the post:
GRAPHICS
Games have always been pushing the boundaries in terms of Graphics - Morrowind, Skyrim, Fallout come to mind. Each time I got a first glimpse on these games, I was floored and amazed at the graphics and it really made the game more immersive and incredible. BUT these are singleplayer games. I lock the doors, hunkerdown and get lost in the game.
MMOs are different, as we all know. Even developers know that and most games graphics are limited in the realism attempted.
I have an opinion on this and would like to hear other peoples opinions from the community:
My belief is, why even try and be "realistic". I find half-assed realistic graphics to be distracting from mmo content, and to be quite a strain to stare at for the 1000-2000 hours I plan on looking at the game for. I prefer the artistic/cartoonish takes on graphics for mmos.
From the pre-Alpha footage I can't tell which way this game is going, but I think it is headed towards the overly-texturized-but-not-all-the-way-to-realism look.
Again just my opinion :) I will play the **** out of it regardless of course =P
My opinion? Graphics don't need to reach the realism of the best movies or videos but you should have the impression you are looking at something real, even if it isn't a *perfect* rendition of something real.
A good but not perfect picture of something real is fine - we don't want to limit the player base to those with computers bought or updated too recently. As VR never ever forgets.
Playing in an anime or cartoon universe with a world and characters that don't even pretend to be real. No thanks - that would be one of the few design decisions so extremely ...wrong ..... for the type of game Pantheon wants to be that I would just write off my pledge as a mistake and leave.
It's fine for you to prefer a cartoonish style, but it's also important to realize that there is a huge spectrum of possibilities in between cartoons and the uncanny valley. That is the range that the graphics in Pantheon are shooting for. We're not just dealing with two extremes (cartoon/photorealism). The closer you get to the uncanny valley without actually falling into it, the more relatable the models become and therefore it becomes easier for most people to become immersed in the game. Considering a large portion of Pantheon's target audience enjoys roleplaying and immersion, that's why they decided to the go with this style:
Delorial said: ... My belief is, why even try and be "realistic". I find half-assed realistic graphics to be distracting from mmo content, and to be quite a strain to stare at for the 1000-2000 hours I plan on looking at the game for. I prefer the artistic/cartoonish takes on graphics for mmos. ...Agreed, and I hold the same opinion. I prefer the un-realistic look of a specific style rather than attempting to be realistic and always failing. Not that I would ever want my games to look realistic anyway, I don't see the point. When I want realism, I go outside. :)
I personally haven's found pantheon graphisms to be "undertermined" yet. They seems realistic to me, from the armor to the detailed faces, and clearly far from the cartoonish some other games used to promote (EQ2 baseline (quite hybrid on realistic cartoonish whatever ?), WoW, Wildstar).
I prefer a high fantasy that brings back some scaling on shoulder items, and simple gear yet appealing. Which seems fitting pantheon right now.
There is always a tightrope to walk. In the past (and not far back) trying to get anywhere near photorealism always failed badly enough to look worse than if they hadn't tried.
I think these days, though, what is possible and good enough to be 'brain-fooling' are pretty much the same thing.
It's not true photorealism, but it's close enough that your brain glosses over anything 'wrong' and lets you enjoy without jarring 'disturbances'.
I do like 'stylised' games, like Borderlands, for example and even WoW, but I think the style definitely sets a mood that, for me (and I think others) is not 'high fantasy'.
High Fantasy (correct me if I'm wrong) has always been medeival + magic. Gritty Olde Worlde + Awesomeness. The RPGs always tend to be deep and complex. The novels often have detailed descriptive prose and tend toward the poetic, even.
There aren't a lot of high fantasy graphic novels.
I like both styles photo and cartoon. I get Why Brad went with the "realism" side and I don't mind it at all.
I do wish photorealism graphics were Way better than what we are seeing in 2018. I think that is the downside to the way games are developed. They aren't designed for the Future, they are designed to run on "todays" normal system. Even though 5 years later, the "now" system will be low end junk.
One thing that can make a photorealism game better is the Art Style behind the graphics. I have criticized the Art in Pantheon in the past. The Art is completely different from graphics.
I don't hate/dislike All of it. Some of it jus seems boring an bland when compared to Elder Scrolls, GW2, WoW etc. In fact graphically, it saddens me to see that we aren't much better than EQ2 graphics (if at all) and that game came out in like 15 years ago? Lighting effects are better. I am not sure the Pantheon graphics are going to be as good as ESO even.... :(
Brads green plate looks .... Let's just say: it's not my favorite. (sorry brad :p )
I reeaaallly hope that Pantheon introduces "STYLES" via Crafting like ESO does. That way I can pick a style I like. I would love to take my new robe to a high end crafter that could, for a fee, change its style/look etc.
I see lots of posts that are against costumes and such. I actually like them. I want choices. I don't want One Style fits all. If i have to wear the green Brad armor because it's best in slot, I would quit playing that character. I don't wanna be a walking pine tree.
I get that you want someone to KNOW that you have an SMR and GEBs but do we Really want to be that limited again?
Think about it... Later, after 200 people have the SMR, it's not so special but since it's BIS (best in slot), you and every other Wizard on the server look the SAME..... boring.... and you will look the same for a LONG time. Expansions takes years, not weeks. jus sayin.
but, just like the original post, I will play this game like I did EQ. non stop for years. I am buying the $250 package. Do a little alpha ( don't wanna burn out before release ), Get my name(s) saved. and of course, support Brads vision because I believe in him and the team to deliver something Great.
Naim said:I don't hate/dislike All of it. Some of it jus seems boring an bland when compared to Elder Scrolls, GW2, WoW etc. In fact graphically, it saddens me to see that we aren't much better than EQ2 graphics (if at all) and that game came out in like 15 years ago? Lighting effects are better. I am not sure the Pantheon graphics are going to be as good as ESO even.... :(
This is indicitive of ones memory looking back on things as far different than the reality. Rose tinted if you will.
FFXIV Landscape - https://img00.deviantart.net/ff00/i/2017/011/8/f/as_well_1_by_exidrial-dav1wid.jpg
Pantheon Pre-Alpha Landscape - https://www.pantheonmmo.com/images/screenshots/170925/170925_05_sm.jpg
FFXIV Characters - https://tinyurl.com/y8tk4ask
Pantheon Pre-Alpha Characters - https://pantheonmmo.com/images/af-party-4k.jpg
ESO - https://tinyurl.com/yc2j8p6f
ESO - https://us.v-cdn.net/5020507/uploads/editor/15/vkntxyxpdiur.png
EQ2 - https://tinyurl.com/ybfd4lnx
GW2 - http://www.levelcapped.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/2017-08-02-5.png
WoW - https://tinyurl.com/yadlmgqb
It's already a few steps ahead of all of those, including at least a step above ESO if not more.
For me, the art styled approach (like wow) kept me from caring about my character. It's a me thing- my problem, but I just didn't feel the connection. On the other hand, cartoon styled graphics last much longer in terms of being "dated" years down the road. I hope VR has left a good foundation for graphic updating when that time comes.
I prefer the stylistic elements of classic D&D . The graphics do not need to be cutting edge at all to make me happy as long as i feel a crisp connection to my character when i move and engage in battle.
I like Brad's Green Armour because it has history, but I would not want to have to wear it for 10 levels. I think the "Boots of Arts and Crafts" should come with a recipe to craft an Aradune plushie that has swords that burst into flames to light your smoke.
I like where they are going with it right now because of Role Playing. I do want to be able to customize colors on my Armour and Garments.
iksar, ok, you are right, Pantheon is a step ahead, hadn't played those other games for a while, i jus remembered liking the art and graphics.
i jus thought we'd be way further along in the photorealism MMO graphics department in 2020.
I was hoping mmo games in 2020 would be (graphically) as good as Far Cry 5, Battlefield, Witcher, (or any new game with amazing graphics,) but an mmo. One can dream, Right?
By the time Pantheon releases, intel 9th or 10th gen 10-12 core i7 CPU's will be available along side GTX 1180 or 1280Ti will be out, making the 1080ti a $289 part. Maybe PCI 4.0 will show up "soon"
/shrug
not sure about the green armor history lol. maybe brad will reserve that color for himself only ;p
Naim said:i jus thought we'd be way further along in the photorealism MMO graphics department in 2020.
I was hoping mmo games in 2020 would be (graphically) as good as Far Cry 5, Battlefield, Witcher, (or any new game with amazing graphics,) but an mmo. One can dream, Right?
By the time Pantheon releases, intel 9th or 10th gen 10-12 core i7 CPU's will be available along side GTX 1180 or 1280Ti will be out, making the 1080ti a $289 part. Maybe PCI 4.0 will show up "soon"
I think computers are more than capable of dealing with the graphics required - it's internet technology and demand that would make such high resolution games non-viable. I would love MMO's to be of Skyrim/Fallout quality and most complaints/qualms I had when starting the thread wouldn't exist. Unfortunately I live in Australia with 300kb/s internet so Realistic+lag is very jarring. Cartoon+lag allows me that disconnect to start with. Even with better internet like alot of countries have, in peak times and other circumstances the game would be unplayable due to requiring SO much bandwidth.
I am not an internet technician so could be wrong, but I think that is right
I prefer stylized but not cartoonish, and i strongly dislike eastern styles (anime/manga etc, couldnt stand FFXIV graphic styles)
i think that the more you try to make the characters realistic, you invest a lot of effort for very little gain.
and, when i say "stylized" i dont mean "wowish",
i mean more like the "crowfall" models, the "crowfall" models and graphic style appeal to me very much, I think they are the perfect ration between cartoonish and realistic models.
it is too bad for me that they are a PVP game which have zero interest to me.
Naim said:i jus thought we'd be way further along in the photorealism MMO graphics department in 2020.
I was hoping mmo games in 2020 would be (graphically) as good as Far Cry 5, Battlefield, Witcher, (or any new game with amazing graphics,) but an mmo. One can dream, Right?
By the time Pantheon releases, intel 9th or 10th gen 10-12 core i7 CPU's will be available along side GTX 1180 or 1280Ti will be out, making the 1080ti a $289 part. Maybe PCI 4.0 will show up "soon"
Only with Nvidia's recent RTX announcement is truly photorealistic graphics in an MMO finally possible. It'll be a little while till they're available and proabably even a little while more until they're accessible enough to be common, but we are on the brink. Read more here: https://www.geforce.com/whats-new/articles/nvidia-rtx-real-time-game-ray-tracing
MyNegation said:I prefer stylized but not cartoonish, and i strongly dislike eastern styles (anime/manga etc, couldnt stand FFXIV graphic styles)
i think that the more you try to make the characters realistic, you invest a lot of effort for very little gain.
and, when i say "stylized" i dont mean "wowish",
i mean more like the "crowfall" models, the "crowfall" models and graphic style appeal to me very much, I think they are the perfect ration between cartoonish and realistic models.
Absolutely agree with all of this - the work required to make items fit to realistic models is a waste of the developers time in my opinion - but I am fine to play the game if they wanted to waste there cash there.
Crowfall looks perfect to me - smooth and easy to discern textures and models. Not a total looneytunes episode, can imagine that the world may exist in some other dimension.
woo
Bazgrim said:Naim said:i jus thought we'd be way further along in the photorealism MMO graphics department in 2020.
I was hoping mmo games in 2020 would be (graphically) as good as Far Cry 5, Battlefield, Witcher, (or any new game with amazing graphics,) but an mmo. One can dream, Right?
By the time Pantheon releases, intel 9th or 10th gen 10-12 core i7 CPU's will be available along side GTX 1180 or 1280Ti will be out, making the 1080ti a $289 part. Maybe PCI 4.0 will show up "soon"
Only with Nvidia's recent RTX announcement is truly photorealistic graphics in an MMO finally possible. It'll be a little while till they're available and proabably even a little while more until they're accessible enough to be common, but we are on the brink. Read more here: https://www.geforce.com/whats-new/articles/nvidia-rtx-real-time-game-ray-tracing
I have been watching that too Baz. I was thinking about building a PC over the winter before I had found out about what crypto miners did to the GPU market. Now I am glad I waited as it finally looks like the next round of cards will use either DDR6 or HBM2/3 which end up having 4-10 times the memory channels of current main stream cards. I am guessing this will be the first real step of high quality VR games as well as realistic MMOs.
I love games with amazing graphics. One of the major reason I always hated WoW was the terrible looking cartoonish models.
I would personally love to see ultra photorealism in Pantheon, on the level of BDO (say what you will about that game. It looks breath-takingly beautiful), but I am good with the level they are shooting for. It is not cartoony on the level of WoW but it's not anything near BDO. I think it's a happy medium.
While I would love to see a Fallout 4/Skyrim or better graphics quality, as long as we get an ESO plus environment (which it appears we are), then I am ok. What would have killed it for me, was a WoW/cartoonish look, or anything Manga/Anime inspired. I am also very happy that they are doing more realistictly styled armor and weapons.
Bazgrim said:Naim said:i jus thought we'd be way further along in the photorealism MMO graphics department in 2020.
I was hoping mmo games in 2020 would be (graphically) as good as Far Cry 5, Battlefield, Witcher, (or any new game with amazing graphics,) but an mmo. One can dream, Right?
By the time Pantheon releases, intel 9th or 10th gen 10-12 core i7 CPU's will be available along side GTX 1180 or 1280Ti will be out, making the 1080ti a $289 part. Maybe PCI 4.0 will show up "soon"
Only with Nvidia's recent RTX announcement is truly photorealistic graphics in an MMO finally possible. It'll be a little while till they're available and proabably even a little while more until they're accessible enough to be common, but we are on the brink. Read more here: https://www.geforce.com/whats-new/articles/nvidia-rtx-real-time-game-ray-tracing
Ya, RTX is a good start. I do truely believe nVidia is dragging their feet on tech because AMD isn't competition. The 56 and 64 AMD cards were DOA and have never been in stock anywhere. I think their production lines can only make like 4 or 5 of these cards per month...
I get that we need tech like RTX etc to get where I want things to be, I was just wishing that 20 years after playing EQ, We would already Be there.
ah well, hope to see it someday...
I know there is another side of this. The development is not as easy as throwing in some new graphics capabilities. Sure, we have HD/4k and now 8K processes that allow for that but its is very difficult to do and expensive. In some cases, the game engines will not support the level of detail and then there is the hardware needed to create it. Rendering and effects get far more complicated at HD depending on what your doing. It’s a couple of years away but the engineering behind it is moving fast towards it.
Ox
Considering the graphics of how the grass gets "crop-circled' down when walked accross.
I was just thinking, this is a cool feature that could have serious situational awareness reprecussions, for instance: Invisible monsters, you would only know if they were coming if you saw the grass being matted down, probably from a lookout in group in a higher elevation or on a rock. Likewise in an old dungeon where you would see pawprints in the dust that would fade over a small period of time like footprints in snow in Amberfaet but you would see the general pattern of comings and goings before the dust piled back up (or the grass popped back up if outside) and where you would be blindsided in Halnir because the stones are relatively clean or damp with - dampness- so they don't hold a print.
Manouk said: ... Likewise in an old dungeon where you would see pawprints in the dust that would fade over a small period of time like footprints in snow in Amberfaet but you would see the general pattern of comings and goings before the dust piled back up (or the grass popped back up if outside) and where you would be blindsided in Halnir because the stones are relatively clean or damp with - dampness- so they don't hold a print.
Yeah the whole footprints-as-a-projected-texture was veto'd by the devs a few years back. A real shame too, as it could add a ton of depth, possibilities and immersion for many game loops/systems.
Delorial said:It would also add immense bandwidth requirements no?
Exactly. Currently when it comes to transient footprints, RTX, etc. the restriction is hardware (graphics cards, servers, etc.). Once more computationally powerful hardware is widely available, we'll probably start seeing those sorts of detailed immersive features be more common. But until then, we have to conceded that there are some things that are awesome in theory, but are just not realistically worthwhile yet.
