disposalist said:I'm playing it right now as a 14th level Druid and I regularly have to change spells. Sitting aggro happens, yes, but not often if someone else has built aggro.
I want to have available: -
Heal
Root
Damage shield
Snare
Damage over Time
Direct Damage
HarmonyI have one slot left, but I'd like to have: -
Spirit of Wolf (it's really bad if that drops when you need to escape combat)
Panic Animal (if there are animals near that might interfere)
Flame Lick (a smaller DoT I could combine or just use to finish of a monster)
Cure Poison (if I'm fighting something poisonous)
An AoE damage spell (if the group pulls multiple small creatures)
And the there's the buffs, which because there are 4 that I have to spread out (else use up all mana in one go) I'm re-casting every few minutes.Look, I get the theory and I like the need to be tactical, but what you actually get is some spells just never getting used and a lot of irritating switching because it's not tactical to need buffs, it's constant.
Well it looks like the problem is you are trying to cover all bases with your limited slots. If you are grouping at level 14 it should be Heal, Nuke, Snare, Root, Thorns, and then whatever you want for the last 3. Yeah you'd like to have everything but you have to choose what you *need* based on the task at hand.
Iksar said:disposalist said:I'm playing it right now as a 14th level Druid and I regularly have to change spells. Sitting aggro happens, yes, but not often if someone else has built aggro.
I want to have available: -
Heal
Root
Damage shield
Snare
Damage over Time
Direct Damage
HarmonyI have one slot left, but I'd like to have: -
Spirit of Wolf (it's really bad if that drops when you need to escape combat)
Panic Animal (if there are animals near that might interfere)
Flame Lick (a smaller DoT I could combine or just use to finish of a monster)
Cure Poison (if I'm fighting something poisonous)
An AoE damage spell (if the group pulls multiple small creatures)
And the there's the buffs, which because there are 4 that I have to spread out (else use up all mana in one go) I'm re-casting every few minutes.Look, I get the theory and I like the need to be tactical, but what you actually get is some spells just never getting used and a lot of irritating switching because it's not tactical to need buffs, it's constant.
Well it looks like the problem is you are trying to cover all bases with your limited slots. If you are grouping at level 14 it should be Heal, Nuke, Snare, Root, Thorns, and then whatever you want for the last 3. Yeah you'd like to have everything but you have to choose what you *need* based on the task at hand.
Yes, I understand the concept, but I don't think it's working in EQ and I'm hoping Pantheon doesn't repeat the issue, which is why I'm discussing it.
What I am suggesting is that limited options don't necessarily feel good and don't necessarily lead to interesting tactical choices, but can lead to less tactics being available and some tactics (abilities) in fact never getting employed because they are so unlikely to occur and so never get 'loaded'.
12 slots on a toolbar may be enough, though, *if* there are other toolbars for non-ability functions. I still think since having long-term buffs is never going to be a good tactical combat choice, so why not deal with them differently instead of force them to be loaded and unloaded every hour.
I certainly find that 8 spell gems in EQ is not enough. It doesn't feel like I am having fun 'choosing wisely' it feels like I am frustrated never getting to choose some niche abilities and constantly swapping in and out utility and buff abilities.
I feel like I'm just repeating myself now. I think I'm being pretty clear and feel I have valid concerns, no?
Just for the record, I keep seeing mention of sit agro... yes it does exist. But I have yet to see mention of it having a distance modifier (it does) if your pulling agro when trying to change a spell then move further away. A ranged caster should be at range in the first place.
Ive played EQ since 1999 and I remember clear back then moving away from the battle before I sat.
disposalist said:Yes, I understand the concept, but I don't think it's working in EQ and I'm hoping Pantheon doesn't repeat the issue, which is why I'm discussing it.
What I am suggesting is that limited options don't necessarily feel good and don't necessarily lead to interesting tactical choices, but can lead to less tactics being available and some tactics (abilities) in fact never getting employed because they are so unlikely to occur and so never get 'loaded'.
12 slots on a toolbar may be enough, though, *if* there are other toolbars for non-ability functions. I still think since having long-term buffs is never going to be a good tactical combat choice, so why not deal with them differently instead of force them to be loaded and unloaded every hour.
I certainly find that 8 spell gems in EQ is not enough. It doesn't feel like I am having fun 'choosing wisely' it feels like I am frustrated never getting to choose some niche abilities and constantly swapping in and out utility and buff abilities.
I feel like I'm just repeating myself now. I think I'm being pretty clear and feel I have valid concerns, no?
Your "concern" is that an old school MMO with limited options for active abilities is bad, and you want the EQ2 thing where you have 30-40+ buttons available, to save you from dropping/memorizing spells situationally, and you are wrapping the desire for convenience in "why not, it isn't like any of the spells are really tactical" theory. This goes to many of your "concerns" about the game in other threads where you oppose old school MMO thinking and want Pantheon to be like EQ2/WoW era games ofmany buttons and much convenience.
But lots of the old school players who are hoping for a redux to EQ1 disagree because we all did fine for hundreds of /daysplayed as casters, with those same 8 spell gems and pageable, 6 slot action bar. You make choices, and you do hot swaps as necessary. Not that big of a deal really.
Where I dsagree is your dismissal of swapping spell gems for buffs/debuffs/utilities as not being tactical, where the buff itself is not considered tactical. And that to me is nonsense. The tactic is that the buff needs to be up always with zero downtime. When the buff timer is shorter than the standard respawn timer, and you are trying to work efficient group ex and manage mana, rebuff is quite tactical in how you do it, keeping track of the timers, not interrupting flow, etc. Limited gems require making choices, tactical choices at that.
Zorkon said:Just for the record, I keep seeing mention of sit agro... yes it does exist. But I have yet to see mention of it having a distance modifier (it does) if your pulling agro when trying to change a spell then move further away. A ranged caster should be at range in the first place.
Ive played EQ since 1999 and I remember clear back then moving away from the battle before I sat.
Disposalist isn't down with the entire meditation concept, since sitting (per his words) means doing nothing. Apparently, he never played an enchanter who runed up and purposely drew sitting aggro off a healer to make sure the healer lives through a group wipe. Sit aggro was a very serious tool in my enchanter's arsenal and saved many a healer's bacon on more occasions than I can count. Medding, swapping gems on the fly, ping ponging with sit aggro, etc. Lots being done without HAM casting.
But modern MMO theory is everyone goes HAM on every mob always. If there is sitting, meditation, limited gems, etc...how can you go HAM?
Venjenz said:.I follow ya, and agree on all exceptZorkon said:Just for the record, I keep seeing mention of sit agro... yes it does exist. But I have yet to see mention of it having a distance modifier (it does) if your pulling agro when trying to change a spell then move further away. A ranged caster should be at range in the first place.
Ive played EQ since 1999 and I remember clear back then moving away from the battle before I sat.
Disposalist isn't down with the entire meditation concept, since sitting (per his words) means doing nothing. Apparently, he never played an enchanter who runed up and purposely drew sitting aggro off a healer to make sure the healer lives through a group wipe. Sit aggro was a very serious tool in my enchanter's arsenal and saved many a healer's bacon on more occasions than I can count. Medding, swapping gems on the fly, ping ponging with sit aggro, etc. Lots being done without HAM casting.
But modern MMO theory is everyone goes HAM on every mob always. If there is sitting, meditation, limited gems, etc...how can you go HAM?
"HAM casting"
What the hell is "HAM casting"?
Based on the context of your post I guess that's a name for casting nonstop on a mob from start to finish. In EQ leaving a caster OOM for the next 2-3+ encounters.
But what does HAM stand for?
disposalist said:Yes, I understand the concept, but I don't think it's working in EQ and I'm hoping Pantheon doesn't repeat the issue, which is why I'm discussing it.
What I am suggesting is that limited options don't necessarily feel good and don't necessarily lead to interesting tactical choices, but can lead to less tactics being available and some tactics (abilities) in fact never getting employed because they are so unlikely to occur and so never get 'loaded'.
12 slots on a toolbar may be enough, though, *if* there are other toolbars for non-ability functions. I still think since having long-term buffs is never going to be a good tactical combat choice, so why not deal with them differently instead of force them to be loaded and unloaded every hour.
I certainly find that 8 spell gems in EQ is not enough. It doesn't feel like I am having fun 'choosing wisely' it feels like I am frustrated never getting to choose some niche abilities and constantly swapping in and out utility and buff abilities.
I feel like I'm just repeating myself now. I think I'm being pretty clear and feel I have valid concerns, no?
I hear that, of course it is all subjective. I never felt it didn't work in EQ or that it didn't feel good (though you needed to stay on top of spellbook management) and on most any caster I used all my abilities (some rarely, yes) at different times for different purposes.
The limited options do promote tactical decisions and it exists so you CAN'T cover all the bases...alone. There are 72 abilities among a full group with which to cover all the bases, which is more than sufficient and requires different spells for different encounters and group compositions. In EQ you could see this happen to some degree: If a group has a shaman and enchanter then they don't both need to have haste/slow loaded which frees up spots for either... Basically as a group you could cover most bases together "Who is bringing a snare? A dispel? A haste? An evac? HP/AC buff(s)? A slow?" etc.
But I thought this thread was about non-ability hotbars...
Maximis said:Zorkon said:But what does HAM stand for?
Hard as a motherf'er
Which is the current MMO model in all the various WoW clones that litter the landscape. Mana regen out of combat is like full mana inside 10 seconds, so going HAM in combat makes total sense, and controlling how fast you blow through mana doesn't become a concern until you are doing hardmode dungeons and raids at max level. Prior to that, you HAM cast, speed grind your way to max level in the shortest period of time.
Old school MMO mana regen time, even while meditating says yeah, that kind of play won't work.
Ironically, I found the answer to Disposalist's concerns about doing nothing while meditating/sitting. Apparently, that time can be spent swapping spell gems for buffs/utilities and then back to the group fight/support stuff. He wants stuff to do when he sits, and it seems like fewer spell gems gives him that something.
Iksar said:disposalist said:Yes, I understand the concept, but I don't think it's working in EQ and I'm hoping Pantheon doesn't repeat the issue, which is why I'm discussing it.
What I am suggesting is that limited options don't necessarily feel good and don't necessarily lead to interesting tactical choices, but can lead to less tactics being available and some tactics (abilities) in fact never getting employed because they are so unlikely to occur and so never get 'loaded'.
12 slots on a toolbar may be enough, though, *if* there are other toolbars for non-ability functions. I still think since having long-term buffs is never going to be a good tactical combat choice, so why not deal with them differently instead of force them to be loaded and unloaded every hour.
I certainly find that 8 spell gems in EQ is not enough. It doesn't feel like I am having fun 'choosing wisely' it feels like I am frustrated never getting to choose some niche abilities and constantly swapping in and out utility and buff abilities.
I feel like I'm just repeating myself now. I think I'm being pretty clear and feel I have valid concerns, no?
I hear that, of course it is all subjective. I never felt it didn't work in EQ or that it didn't feel good (though you needed to stay on top of spellbook management) and on most any caster I used all my abilities (some rarely, yes) at different times for different purposes.
The limited options do promote tactical decisions and it exists so you CAN'T cover all the bases...alone. There are 72 abilities among a full group with which to cover all the bases, which is more than sufficient and requires different spells for different encounters and group compositions. In EQ you could see this happen to some degree: If a group has a shaman and enchanter then they don't both need to have haste/slow loaded which frees up spots for either... Basically as a group you could cover most bases together "Who is bringing a snare? A dispel? A haste? An evac? HP/AC buff(s)? A slow?" etc.
But I thought this thread was about non-ability hotbars...
Yeah I get that. We aren't *really* disagreeing, it just bugs me more than it bugs you that there are abilities designed for my class that I will pretty much never use, but I *would* use if I just had a couple more spell gems.
In Pantheon, there will be 12 hotbar items, so perhaps the amount of tactical variation possible will cover the more obscure utility abilities for a class.
As for the discussion being non-ability hotbars, blame VR :) They combined the hotbar and spell gem concept and weren't clear what extra hotbars might or might not be for yet. I feel it's related *shrug*
Venjenz said:disposalist said:Yes, I understand the concept, but I don't think it's working in EQ and I'm hoping Pantheon doesn't repeat the issue, which is why I'm discussing it.
What I am suggesting is that limited options don't necessarily feel good and don't necessarily lead to interesting tactical choices, but can lead to less tactics being available and some tactics (abilities) in fact never getting employed because they are so unlikely to occur and so never get 'loaded'.
12 slots on a toolbar may be enough, though, *if* there are other toolbars for non-ability functions. I still think since having long-term buffs is never going to be a good tactical combat choice, so why not deal with them differently instead of force them to be loaded and unloaded every hour.
I certainly find that 8 spell gems in EQ is not enough. It doesn't feel like I am having fun 'choosing wisely' it feels like I am frustrated never getting to choose some niche abilities and constantly swapping in and out utility and buff abilities.
I feel like I'm just repeating myself now. I think I'm being pretty clear and feel I have valid concerns, no?
Your "concern" is that an old school MMO with limited options for active abilities is bad, and you want the EQ2 thing where you have 30-40+ buttons available, to save you from dropping/memorizing spells situationally, and you are wrapping the desire for convenience in "why not, it isn't like any of the spells are really tactical" theory. This goes to many of your "concerns" about the game in other threads where you oppose old school MMO thinking and want Pantheon to be like EQ2/WoW era games ofmany buttons and much convenience.
But lots of the old school players who are hoping for a redux to EQ1 disagree because we all did fine for hundreds of /daysplayed as casters, with those same 8 spell gems and pageable, 6 slot action bar. You make choices, and you do hot swaps as necessary. Not that big of a deal really.
Where I dsagree is your dismissal of swapping spell gems for buffs/debuffs/utilities as not being tactical, where the buff itself is not considered tactical. And that to me is nonsense. The tactic is that the buff needs to be up always with zero downtime. When the buff timer is shorter than the standard respawn timer, and you are trying to work efficient group ex and manage mana, rebuff is quite tactical in how you do it, keeping track of the timers, not interrupting flow, etc. Limited gems require making choices, tactical choices at that.
You can have more than 8 spell gems and not jump straight to 40. There could even be different types of usage with penalties.
This *does* go to many of my other 'concerns' where you immediately assume I want the opposite extreme because I don't want exactly what EQ had.
I just like to discuss the issues. It's ok to talk about these things. It will not ruin Pantheon to talk.
Venjenz said:disposalist said:Yes, I understand the concept, but I don't think it's working in EQ and I'm hoping Pantheon doesn't repeat the issue, which is why I'm discussing it.
What I am suggesting is that limited options don't necessarily feel good and don't necessarily lead to interesting tactical choices, but can lead to less tactics being available and some tactics (abilities) in fact never getting employed because they are so unlikely to occur and so never get 'loaded'.
12 slots on a toolbar may be enough, though, *if* there are other toolbars for non-ability functions. I still think since having long-term buffs is never going to be a good tactical combat choice, so why not deal with them differently instead of force them to be loaded and unloaded every hour.
I certainly find that 8 spell gems in EQ is not enough. It doesn't feel like I am having fun 'choosing wisely' it feels like I am frustrated never getting to choose some niche abilities and constantly swapping in and out utility and buff abilities.
I feel like I'm just repeating myself now. I think I'm being pretty clear and feel I have valid concerns, no?
Your "concern" is that an old school MMO with limited options for active abilities is bad, and you want the EQ2 thing where you have 30-40+ buttons available, to save you from dropping/memorizing spells situationally, and you are wrapping the desire for convenience in "why not, it isn't like any of the spells are really tactical" theory. This goes to many of your "concerns" about the game in other threads where you oppose old school MMO thinking and want Pantheon to be like EQ2/WoW era games ofmany buttons and much convenience.
But lots of the old school players who are hoping for a redux to EQ1 disagree because we all did fine for hundreds of /daysplayed as casters, with those same 8 spell gems and pageable, 6 slot action bar. You make choices, and you do hot swaps as necessary. Not that big of a deal really.
Where I dsagree is your dismissal of swapping spell gems for buffs/debuffs/utilities as not being tactical, where the buff itself is not considered tactical. And that to me is nonsense. The tactic is that the buff needs to be up always with zero downtime. When the buff timer is shorter than the standard respawn timer, and you are trying to work efficient group ex and manage mana, rebuff is quite tactical in how you do it, keeping track of the timers, not interrupting flow, etc. Limited gems require making choices, tactical choices at that.
You can have more than 8 spell gems and not jump straight to 40. There could even be different types of usage with penalties as I suggested earlier.
This *does* go to many of my other 'concerns' where you immediately assume I want the opposite extreme because I don't want exactly what EQ had. "Not EQ" doesn't mean "WoW".
I just like to discuss the issues. It's ok to talk about these things. It will not ruin Pantheon to talk.
EDIT: And I have to add, is anyone really just "hoping for a redux of EQ1"? Lol.
EDIT2: I should say, if they *did* bring out pretty much a redux of EQ1, I wouldn't be upset! hehe. I'm playing EQ P99 right now...
It does seems 5/6abilities will be the most you can manage for your combat role, as for the rogue it was Backstab, Waylay, Blackjack kick, two dots and a situationnal aggro lowering strike. Even thoses abilities couldn't all be used at the same time due to Endurance restrain, that leaves at least 6 slots for utility and such.
I agree with disposalist - it's a good thing to talk.
Iksar kindly pointed out that this thread is actually about hotbars, not about any one person's views on an array of other topics.
On the topic - I like LAS in theory and will look forwad to seeing how Pantheon implements it. For the number of hotbars, I don't see any reason to limit them.
Maximis said:Zorkon said:But what does HAM stand for?
Hard as a motherf'er
Ahhhh.. of course it does!
Thanks
Edit: And yes as an early EQ Wizard I'm fully aware of the stratagey of mana conservation and saving the burst until the end to blast the mob over it's enraged damage to help conserve the healers mana to keep the flow going.. or small stuns (Lightning) through the battle to disrupt mob casting. There was more Mana Management was a thing.
Zorkon said:Maximis said:Zorkon said:But what does HAM stand for?
Hard as a motherf'er
Ahhhh.. of course it does!
Thanks
Edit: And yes as an early EQ Wizard I'm fully aware of the stratagey of mana conservation and saving the burst until the end to blast the mob over it's enraged damage to help conserve the healers mana to keep the flow going.. or small stuns (Lightning) through the battle to disrupt mob casting. There was more Mana Management was a thing.
For the record, I never said mana management shouldn't be a thing, I just said that sitting down stationery was a boring way to do it.
Seems VR agree, because apparently the wizard at least will be much more mobile in combat than in EQ days.
But that really *is* nothing to do with hotbars...
I love the idea of "memming" spells/abilities to make them available for use. I also agree that forcing players to work within pre-defined constraints makes us more creative and opens up room for individuation.
However, I think it's important to make a clear distinction between "spell/ability slots" and "hotbar slots". There are lots of good reasons to limit how many active spells/abilities we can have, and I trust VR will get that number right. But I really don't see a good reason to limit hotbar slots if those hotbar slots can hold macros as well as memmed spells/abilities.
LeonSanborn said:
Buddy, I have also played EQ2 for quite a while also, and most of the time, you generally rotated between the 5-10 spells as you have just stated. Therefore making the remaining unused abilities are useless and really not needed as you only use it when your main rotation is down and you dont actually count on it for your main rotation or damage.
Pal, what about the desire to add emotes to a hotbar, /inc %t and then yes, he may have rotated between 5-10 abilties, but assume it was 8. Add in that hot key slot (which we'll all want more than two of especially if you're MA) and then add in the temp buffs 2 or 3 of those and then your emergency ability (if healer a heal, if stealth an excape, if tank a stoneskill or taunt, etc.) or abilities, and then other community hotkey, or UI hotkeys and your well over 12.
12 hotkey, anyway you put it, it going to limit what you can do. Average players will love this, they won't have to "figure out" how to be good. However, it ties the hands of better players. Those that can fingure out the combo's, those than can read and comprehend the "if used before" or "if sued after" abilities. It frustrated the heck out of me in EQ2 when a player lesser geared than I, who could out DPS me. It was because he was better, he learned how to chain those abilities, it didn't make me mad, it made me want to study and figure it out, to find out how to be better.
Give us 7 or 8 useable abilities though, and well, then its only going to be who's got the better gear.
I had 36 hots keys when I played EQ2, used 20 of them, guarnteed, every fight. Some, many many times a fight, some just once. Sometimes, I used all 36 in a fight.
Nihimon said:I love the idea of "memming" spells/abilities to make them available for use. I also agree that forcing players to work within pre-defined constraints makes us more creative and opens up room for individuation.
However, I think it's important to make a clear distinction between "spell/ability slots" and "hotbar slots". There are lots of good reasons to limit how many active spells/abilities we can have, and I trust VR will get that number right. But I really don't see a good reason to limit hotbar slots if those hotbar slots can hold macros as well as memmed spells/abilities.
This is the point that I was making earlier. Actions that require a Button vs Activatable Skills/spells. VR should be able to specify which things are Activatable skills/spells and are limited by whatever number of 'Active Slots' they decide we will have, as well they will specify which Actions are not limited and can be used at any time and don't need to fit into this limited 'Active slots'.
I'm guessing that if they allow lots of hotbars, if you put a Skill/Spell in a hotbar and then you 'un-mem' it from your Active Slots it will simply become grey'd out on that hotbar so you can't use it. It will still be there, but when you press that button you will just get a 'You don't have that skill active' or some such message.
I prefer the idea of limited spell slots/combat skills. You'll have your normal abilities up at all times, but you'll also need some situational awareness and a readiness to swap out skills in a moments notice if needed.
This doesn't mean I don't think we should have an extra slot for aa abilities once they are available. I could definitely see some issues with having no room there, but not before then.
Kytastrophe said: I can't seem to find it anywhere... it's there a method to save lineups? "Buff", "Sustained DPS", "Exploration", "BigBadaBoom"... would all have different components. The setup limitation wouldn't feel like a restriction if I could easily swap sets, even with a med time, rather than right click to clear it... right click to start resetting it... search through tome, select skill... mem an rinse-n-repeat for x buttons.
I have to admit I do like having the ability to save spellsets. I have 4 on my chanter in eq: buffs, charm, no charm, crafting
Before that was an option I always kept my spells in order saving the first 2 pages for frequently used spells, but everything else was grouped by type and kept in level order.
*edit - forgot about my enchanting spells :)
Kytastrophe said: I can't seem to find it anywhere... it's there a method to save lineups? "Buff", "Sustained DPS", "Exploration", "BigBadaBoom"... would all have different components. The setup limitation wouldn't feel like a restriction if I could easily swap sets, even with a med time, rather than right click to clear it... right click to start resetting it... search through tome, select skill... mem an rinse-n-repeat for x buttons.
I can't imagine they won't include something like that as it is directly in-line with design goals they've long held: reducing/eliminating needless tedium, especially in repeated UI functions.