So after playing on an EQ Progression server this weekend I started thinking about how the Need Before Greed loot role system might can be improved. The reason for this is in most of the groups one of two things happened: the group would use the traditional greed for junk and need for upgrades and quite often one or more would ignore that and need everything, or groups would just say need on everything and speak up for upgrades, which was hit and miss. Point is, the need/greed system is pretty useless as it is for a lot of PUGs. Guilds and friends, no problem. So here's just an idea so hear me out.
First, start every group with coin split enabled and only able to be disabled by individual people or agreeing to a master looter rule change.
Now, on to the Need/Greed.
Let's say the loot options are set to Need/Greed. Now someone just starts needing on everything. Well in this case each consecutive need role beyond the first starts to add a let's say -20% to -30% chance to need roles (it could be higher (33%-50%) but let's not get caught up in the math) that can accumulate all the way up to 100%, forcing greed roles at that point until it reduces to let's say 50%. On the reduction, let's say after the first greed role (the 2nd) you're penalty begins reducing at a rate of 5% a role. So you have a 50% penalty, you start rolling greed and 6 rolls will get you back to 0%.
On the flipside, If you greed the entire time, you'll begin accumulating a 5% (could be more, math and all) bonus to your roles that can mount to 100%, On your first need roll, this is fully expended, setting you back to normal.
The math can be adjusted but you get the gist. The intent is to encourage the system to be used as intended before PUGs become need alls in Pantheon. Bonus chance to your need role for playing by the rules.
Anywho, it's just an idea. Feel free to add to it, tweak it, or just tell me how horrible it is or that someone already tried it somewhere else. :) Have fun and see you in Terminus...eventually.
Kalok said:Back in the day, NBG rules were honored and people were less greedy than they appear to be now. Coin split should always be on unless an individual opts out.
I was in that day as well, sir. ;p But times a change and all that. I figure a lot on the Progression server greed is driven by Krono, but it is what it is. I figured it was an idea for the system that might work (or could cause a catastrophe, who really knows?).
It's easy to fix. The first time someone Needs something they don't need, they get a warning. The second they get reminded they were warned. The third they get kicked.
Having said that, there would be no harm in accumulating a worse chance of winning as you win to even things out.
Also, sensible defaults help, like all vendor loot being greed only and, yes, cash split being on.
I like to hope that, if what I have been reading is right, this will be a huge community-based game. People will be mindful of the reputation they build and the greedy people will eventually find themselves having a harder time getting parties. It could be an issue, kicking people from a party when dungeons are not instanced, they could hang around and grief the party by trying to pull to it - but let's be fair, that's only going to hurt their own reputation even more.
I think in the begining this may be an issue, but I think as time passes, it will iron itself out as people begin to realize there are consequences to their actions and they can't namelessly grief on everyone else behind a computer screen.
This might fit better consolidated into: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4170/looting-rules/view/page/1
That said I maintain a stance of only a Want/Pass system for pick up groups.
Kalok said:Back in the day, NBG rules were honored and people were less greedy than they appear to be now. Coin split should always be on unless an individual opts out.
Back in the day, the best drops were BoE, or LORE. So NBG was not really and issue.
People rationalize NBG. They can give it to an alt or a guildy, sell it for $$ and buy something they need.
NEED can be defined many ways.
zewtastic said:Kalok said:Back in the day, NBG rules were honored and people were less greedy than they appear to be now. Coin split should always be on unless an individual opts out.
Back in the day, the best drops were BoE, or LORE. So NBG was not really and issue.
People rationalize NBG. They can give it to an alt or a guildy, sell it for $$ and buy something they need.
NEED can be defined many ways.
Yeah. Except that's NOT the way it was done back in the day. If you couldn't immediately use it, you didn't have a need. There was no rationaliatiion.
Kalok said:zewtastic said:Kalok said:Back in the day, NBG rules were honored and people were less greedy than they appear to be now. Coin split should always be on unless an individual opts out.
Back in the day, the best drops were BoE, or LORE. So NBG was not really and issue.
People rationalize NBG. They can give it to an alt or a guildy, sell it for $$ and buy something they need.
NEED can be defined many ways.
Yeah. Except that's NOT the way it was done back in the day. If you couldn't immediately use it, you didn't have a need. There was no rationaliatiion.
Many players tried to stick to NBG. But when you are in a camp that dropped only warrior gear, it got kind of hard to attract clerics and other classes that wanted to work camps that had their specific gear. And then you tell them on top of that they cannot loot anything because there character class did not need it... NBG worked fine with guild groups and friends, but generally PUGs stopped adhering to it when those class-specific drops could be worth huge amount of gold(or plat.)
zewtastic said:Kalok said:zewtastic said:Kalok said:Back in the day, NBG rules were honored and people were less greedy than they appear to be now. Coin split should always be on unless an individual opts out.
Back in the day, the best drops were BoE, or LORE. So NBG was not really and issue.
People rationalize NBG. They can give it to an alt or a guildy, sell it for $$ and buy something they need.
NEED can be defined many ways.
Yeah. Except that's NOT the way it was done back in the day. If you couldn't immediately use it, you didn't have a need. There was no rationaliatiion.
Many players tried to stick to NBG. But when you are in a camp that dropped only warrior gear, it got kind of hard to attract clerics and other classes that wanted to work camps that had their specific gear. And then you tell them on top of that they cannot loot anything because there character class did not need it... NBG worked fine with guild groups and friends, but generally PUGs stopped adhering to it when those class-specific drops could be worth huge amount of gold(or plat.)
Maybe with the PUGs you got, but that certainly was not my experience most of the time. In the cases were you were in a camp where only specific classes of armor were dropping, accomodations were made. For instance, there WAS armor dropped that nobody needed, or already had better. Believe it or not, not everyone in PUGs is a rude, greedy dick.
In Sebelis(sp) I remember, at those high levels for the time, the cleric looted everything. kept track of where plat and gold started, collected gems, and when a (insert class) item dropped those classes rolled for the item. You won an item you were out until everyone had an item. When someone left the cleric did a split of the coin, along with dividing the gems. The cleric kept a running cost of components they used for the buffs "paying" themselves back from the gem drops. All on the "honor" system. The cleric's rep was on the line along with the guild they operated under. If you were a member of a guild known to be not a team player you'd have a harder time finding groups to take you. Or they'd take you, see your guild flag, and drop ya.
In the early levels if the group had someone looting everything they'd get a warning. If they kept it up it was common to break/disband group and re-invite everyone but the loot whore. Unless they could gate good luck making your way out of the dungeon. If they trained the group out of spite and everyone died ... their stuff was on their dead body that had a decompose timer ... while your group still had each other to make it back to the bodies and pick up where you left off.
valhalla said:In Sebelis(sp) I remember, at those high levels for the time, the cleric looted everything. kept track of where plat and gold started, collected gems, and when a (insert class) item dropped those classes rolled for the item. You won an item you were out until everyone had an item. When someone left the cleric did a split of the coin, along with dividing the gems. The cleric kept a running cost of components they used for the buffs "paying" themselves back from the gem drops. All on the "honor" system. The cleric's rep was on the line along with the guild they operated under. If you were a member of a guild known to be not a team player you'd have a harder time finding groups to take you. Or they'd take you, see your guild flag, and drop ya.
In the early levels if the group had someone looting everything they'd get a warning. If they kept it up it was common to break/disband group and re-invite everyone but the loot whore. Unless they could gate good luck making your way out of the dungeon. If they trained the group out of spite and everyone died ... their stuff was on their dead body that had a decompose timer ... while your group still had each other to make it back to the bodies and pick up where you left off.
Your cleric charged for buffs? Wow... What a dick. That would be like me, as a Rogue, charging people for the poisons that I used while grouping.
What I would like to see is mobs harder to get to have more loot. Being trivial loot. For example if a mob has 8 items max loot. If the mob hasn't been killed for 4 days it has 8 items on it. Basically the longer it has been alive the more items it has gathered.
Where as if you're camping a spot and the same type of mob spawns there and you kill it you only get a max of 1 or 2 items. It wasn't alive long enough to procure more loot. Where as the one at the back corner gathers more items the longer it is alive. Say one item every 4-8 hours.
Sort of the risk vs reward. Camp the easy mob in front of you for the same XP, but less items vs fighting through a room/dungeon to the back.
Kalok said:zewtastic said:Kalok said:zewtastic said:Kalok said:Back in the day, NBG rules were honored and people were less greedy than they appear to be now. Coin split should always be on unless an individual opts out.
Back in the day, the best drops were BoE, or LORE. So NBG was not really and issue.
People rationalize NBG. They can give it to an alt or a guildy, sell it for $$ and buy something they need.
NEED can be defined many ways.
Yeah. Except that's NOT the way it was done back in the day. If you couldn't immediately use it, you didn't have a need. There was no rationaliatiion.
Many players tried to stick to NBG. But when you are in a camp that dropped only warrior gear, it got kind of hard to attract clerics and other classes that wanted to work camps that had their specific gear. And then you tell them on top of that they cannot loot anything because there character class did not need it... NBG worked fine with guild groups and friends, but generally PUGs stopped adhering to it when those class-specific drops could be worth huge amount of gold(or plat.)
Maybe with the PUGs you got, but that certainly was not my experience most of the time. In the cases were you were in a camp where only specific classes of armor were dropping, accomodations were made. For instance, there WAS armor dropped that nobody needed, or already had better. Believe it or not, not everyone in PUGs is a rude, greedy dick.
Not my experience either, almost never had players (healers, tanks whatever) shun a group because drops were best ssuited for another class. Maybe once they hit cap and they are now soley interested in loot and nothing else, but even that hasnt been the case in my experience. They might pipe up and see if we'd be willing to move to another camp for other equipment after some success, that was much more likely i'd say.
Trying to control player behaviour is a terrible idea, especially in a social MMO like Pantheon.
Loot drama will happen, learn to deal with it, declaring the group loot rules (or asking for them) at the start of the group is the best way of going about, If a player does not follow the rules give them a warning and ask it they understand the rules, if they do it again just kick them from the group, if it's the group leader, leave the group, simple as that, no need for contrived systems that "try" to guide and enforce a certain player behavior.
In my groups I'll use a multitude of different loot option, for trash items all greed, for quest/rep items round robin each item being distributed at a turn to each group member (so everyone gets the same or close to the same ammount of rep/quest/tradeskill items), for small upgrades need before greed, and for really valuable upgrades that can be traded for a considerable ammount of Plat FFA all need.
Kalok said:Your cleric charged for buffs? Wow... What a dick. That would be like me, as a Rogue, charging people for the poisons that I used while grouping.
In EQ Buffs cost money. They had spell components that were used every time the spell was cast. So every time the Cleric buffed you, it cost him a gem that he had to buy from a vendor. It wasn't about Charging for buffs, it was about being Repaid for the cost of buffing you. As the other guy said, this would be taken out of the money looted before the Cleric split the cash.
As for your poisons. If you are talking about a bought poison that you needed to apply to your weapons which cost you money from a vendor, then it wouldn't be unfair for you to get an extra bit of the coin to replenish your stocks.
PS. This thread is likely going to be locked since it's just an offshoot of https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4170/looting-rules as the OP probably wanted his idea to be read and not lost in the huge thread.
GoofyWarriorGuy said:Kalok said:Your cleric charged for buffs? Wow... What a dick. That would be like me, as a Rogue, charging people for the poisons that I used while grouping.
In EQ Buffs cost money. They had spell components that were used every time the spell was cast. So every time the Cleric buffed you, it cost him a gem that he had to buy from a vendor. It wasn't about Charging for buffs, it was about being Repaid for the cost of buffing you. As the other guy said, this would be taken out of the money looted before the Cleric split the cash.
As for your poisons. If you are talking about a bought poison that you needed to apply to your weapons which cost you money from a vendor, then it wouldn't be unfair for you to get an extra bit of the coin to replenish your stocks.
PS. This thread is likely going to be locked since it's just an offshoot of https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4170/looting-rules as the OP probably wanted his idea to be read and not lost in the huge thread.
Brewed poisons cost money for components as well. In addition, the time and money it took to work on the skill itself.
That said..... Still a dick move charging for buffs. ESPECIALLY when buffing your groups. I *NEVER ONCE* told a groups, "Hey. I need 5pp from each of you or I'm not using poisons." That's really bad form. You, as the buffer, would be dead if not for the people you buffed up to kill the mobs. If someone in a group I formed said, "Hey guys. No buffs until you pay me.". they'd be booted so fast they'd wonder what the hell just happened. If it was someone else's group and they wouldn't boot that person, *I* would leave. The purpose of groups is mutual cooperation to keep everyone alive, not make a profit off of everyone in it for doing your job.
Nobody's making profit out of buffs like it was, it was just and simply a fair trade. HP buffs were a horrible siphon of plats and especially at lower levels, had a really short duration. It's not like you could do withouth. HP buff were increasing, especially when grinding, the life of your tank by at least 20%, which is a lot of breathing room when fighting toes to toes. It's not really fair that a cleric had to spend more plats when grouping than any other class as they were already a really bad solo class and thus, could not farm plat alone at all.
It's like if your group wipe and you have a necromancer, won't you payback his coffins ? They were super expensive.
Kratuk said:So after playing on an EQ Progression server this weekend I started thinking about how the Need Before Greed loot role system might can be improved. The reason for this is in most of the groups one of two things happened: the group would use the traditional greed for junk and need for upgrades and quite often one or more would ignore that and need everything, or groups would just say need on everything and speak up for upgrades, which was hit and miss. Point is, the need/greed system is pretty useless as it is for a lot of PUGs. Guilds and friends, no problem. So here's just an idea so hear me out.
First, start every group with coin split enabled and only able to be disabled by individual people or agreeing to a master looter rule change.
Now, on to the Need/Greed.
Let's say the loot options are set to Need/Greed. Now someone just starts needing on everything. Well in this case each consecutive need role beyond the first starts to add a let's say -20% to -30% chance to need roles (it could be higher (33%-50%) but let's not get caught up in the math) that can accumulate all the way up to 100%, forcing greed roles at that point until it reduces to let's say 50%. On the reduction, let's say after the first greed role (the 2nd) you're penalty begins reducing at a rate of 5% a role. So you have a 50% penalty, you start rolling greed and 6 rolls will get you back to 0%.
On the flipside, If you greed the entire time, you'll begin accumulating a 5% (could be more, math and all) bonus to your roles that can mount to 100%, On your first need roll, this is fully expended, setting you back to normal.
...
I'm totally with you on the coin split.
However, I don't know about the penalties/bonuses to rolls, at least as outlined above.
As an illustration:
Wally the Wizard wants the Robe of Flickering Flames, but so do Erik the Enchanter and Sally the Summoner. Wally has not rolled need at all, intentionally building himself to 100%. Sally rolled need and won the Circlet of Summoning a while back, and Erik has been needing everything. Wally has a 100% bonus, Sally has a 60% bonus, and Erik is at -80%. Focusing on the math and putting personal ethics aside (I would likely pass if I was Sally, since I had just gotten something), should Wally automatically win this item when Sally has been playing fair the whole time, and just rolled on one item some amount of time ago? Also, if both Sally and Erik were at 100%, what happens...another roll-off? It seems that sticking to just a penalty would be better...in which case Erik would still be out of the running, Sally would have something like a -5 to her rolls but still be competitive, and Wally would have a bit of a better chance.
But, another example:
Rick the Ranger has been in this group for a long time, and there have been several drops that only he can use. Since he was the only one who could use them, he rolled need. Ronald the Rogue joins the group, and in the next couple of drops, the Blazing Bow drops. As a rogue, Ronald can also use bows (maybe...we'll find out sooner or later!). Should Rick have a very small chance of winning this bow even though Ronald just joined the group, or should they start out on par?
There are several more scenarios, but TL'DR from my perspective is...what would adding bonuses to rolls add that just penalties would not? Also, taking things to 100% and 0% extremes could lead to abuse of the system.
And on the slightly-derailed-from-the-OP topic of charging for cleric buffs in EQ: My typical groups would have the cleric ML, then split the plat minus the cost of buffing. Yes, it comes down to trusting someone to be honest, but you have to do that at some point...
MauvaisOeil said:Nobody's making profit out of buffs like it was, it was just and simply a fair trade. HP buffs were a horrible siphon of plats and especially at lower levels, had a really short duration. It's not like you could do withouth. HP buff were increasing, especially when grinding, the life of your tank by at least 20%, which is a lot of breathing room when fighting toes to toes. It's not really fair that a cleric had to spend more plats when grouping than any other class as they were already a really bad solo class and thus, could not farm plat alone at all.
It's like if your group wipe and you have a necromancer, won't you payback his coffins ? They were super expensive.
There is a large difference betwene group buffs duting battle to keep the group alive and paying for coffins to rez everyone after a wipe.
Kalok said:MauvaisOeil said:Nobody's making profit out of buffs like it was, it was just and simply a fair trade. HP buffs were a horrible siphon of plats and especially at lower levels, had a really short duration. It's not like you could do withouth. HP buff were increasing, especially when grinding, the life of your tank by at least 20%, which is a lot of breathing room when fighting toes to toes. It's not really fair that a cleric had to spend more plats when grouping than any other class as they were already a really bad solo class and thus, could not farm plat alone at all.
It's like if your group wipe and you have a necromancer, won't you payback his coffins ? They were super expensive.
There is a large difference betwene group buffs duting battle to keep the group alive and paying for coffins to rez everyone after a wipe.
If you wish to consider it so, and it doesn't change the Cleric's fate of platsink to help with his group survival. But I guess you're hardminded on that subject, wich is fine, but as seen with others, I'm not alone sharing this opinion.
MauvaisOeil said:Kalok said:MauvaisOeil said:Nobody's making profit out of buffs like it was, it was just and simply a fair trade. HP buffs were a horrible siphon of plats and especially at lower levels, had a really short duration. It's not like you could do withouth. HP buff were increasing, especially when grinding, the life of your tank by at least 20%, which is a lot of breathing room when fighting toes to toes. It's not really fair that a cleric had to spend more plats when grouping than any other class as they were already a really bad solo class and thus, could not farm plat alone at all.
It's like if your group wipe and you have a necromancer, won't you payback his coffins ? They were super expensive.
There is a large difference betwene group buffs duting battle to keep the group alive and paying for coffins to rez everyone after a wipe.
If you wish to consider it so, and it doesn't change the Cleric's fate of platsink to help with his group survival. But I guess you're hardminded on that subject, wich is fine, but as seen with others, I'm not alone sharing this opinion.
Yep. I am absolutely "hard minded" on that. I won't group with people like that. The purpose of buffing your teem is keeping them alive, which is your job as a Cleric. Just like DPS is mine. That includes my poisons. My poisons are used to keep the group alive. It would be stupid of me to charge them for using them. If you let the group die because they didn't pay your "buff tax" you will quickly run out of people to group with.
I still await to see a rogue using poison in EQ classic, before pop era (where they became a sole proc with a buff duration).
They were expensive, one strike working only, with non mandatory neither game changing (they were even resisted by many mobs, to add to the usefullness). I've never ever seen a rogue use them in a group, and no one never asked them (or me, as a rogue main during my first years) to use them.
However, when you had no cleric HP buff with a cleric present, everyone blamed the cleric even if he was broke.
Is that justice ?
I guess you didn't group with a lot of clerics in the end, if you shamed every time they won't pierce their purse with 6 peridots every hour or so.