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Watching the latest stream I had an interesting idea. I think it would be cool if Pantheon had illusory walls like old EQ did, but combined them with the perception system. So, a wall would be an illusion, but if your perception is below 50 it's completely solid for you, even if you run into it. Perception from 50-80 the wall looks solid but can be ran through by touch just like in EQ1. Perception greater than 80 and you get a queue that "The wall to the north flickers subtly."
They could even use this to make older content relevent to go back to later. So for example, maybe Halnir cave that they showed, would have a wall leadting to another wing with a boss no one could find until they had a perception they couldn't achieve until leverl 40. This would add to the need to explore even after you believe you've out leveled an area.
I think this is an idea worth exploring.
One concern I have is how would this impact a group if one member did not have high enough perception? Would it work like a zone that required a key and everyone had to have the key/perception to enter? I don't know if that is a direction they want to take the game. I really don't have an opinion on it but can see it being an issue.
I really like this idea. I'm even OK with someone with ultra low perception not being able to go through an illusory wall, so long as the requirement is relatively low. This could scale so that certain zones had higher perception requirements, let's just not overdo it so that it becomes like getting keyed. I don't see a problem with implementing things like:
1. If you've totally ignored perception, then don't expect to reap the benefits of possible shortcuts or secret areas in dungeons
2. If you've totally ignored swimming and acclimation to underwater zones, expect to have a higher probability of drowning in underwater zones (through slowed movement and reduced lung capacity)
I disagree. The world should be more realistic (if that is a term that makes sense for a high fantasy world) and you should be able to get to anything you can see unless it is blocked by a visible terrain feature. Such as mountains, oceans, uncrossable rivers and the like. Exploring would be a nightmare if you might find a totally arbitrary invisible barrier there - placed by a malefic God perhaps - and had to spend days either finding the one way to get past it or figuring out that that pretty valley you wanted to visit that was 20 feet away might as well be on another planet. Frustrating waste of time.
dorotea said:I disagree. The world should be more realistic (if that is a term that makes sense for a high fantasy world) and you should be able to get to anything you can see unless it is blocked by a visible terrain feature. Such as mountains, oceans, uncrossable rivers and the like. Exploring would be a nightmare if you might find a totally arbitrary invisible barrier there - placed by a malefic God perhaps - and had to spend days either finding the one way to get past it or figuring out that that pretty valley you wanted to visit that was 20 feet away might as well be on another planet. Frustrating waste of time.
There's a big difference between hidden doors in a dungeon and invisible barriers in the open world. I don't think anyone was suggesting the latter.
EQ did it nicely. There were many places where you had secret passages, sometimes even one-way passages. There were also invisible walkways and bridges. Sometimes a floor would be a trap that you could fall through or stairs that looked safe were not and the real path was hidden to you. All of these elements could be tied to the perception system in Pantheon.
I still don't have a problem with locking someone from accessing a "feature" if they refuse to train that aspect of their character. I have no sympathy for "that one guy who hasn't trained perception" any more than a rogue who didn't bother to train his melee abilities. Either player would be a potential handicap to your group. We all accept certain prerequisites for being considered competent in our classes, so I don't know why a low to moderate perception skill to access a limited area of a dungeon would be any different. Maybe if you have a rogue, he can lockpick the hidden door? There are ways players could possibly be accommodated, but setting a low prereq bar on certain skills shouldn't be a major upset or surprise to any player. Without conditions where skills are required, the skills become irrelevant to normal game play.
I think if the perception can be shared by people in your party, I'm fine with there being perception gates. For example, if someone with a high perception skill wanders into the illusory wall, they could have an option to share the perception that the wall isn't real with their party. If they do this, the rest of the party may still not be able to see that the wall is fake, but they can at least pass through it.
I think a big appeal of Pantheon is that it isn't catering to the lowest denominator. That means that it shouldn't cater to the person who doesn't go into the perception system. Let them be handicapped. I'm sure they excel in other areas because of other choices they made. Additionally, if the game is intending to promote this community, then I think friends should be able to mechanically help.
Now I do think that the vast majority of content should be reachable by the vast majority of players. That being said, I feel like the vast majority of players will be encouraged to train their perception skill, so having illusory walls, floors, etc. here or there isn't an issue for me. Because in this example, even the lowest denominator can get help from a friend. On that note, I think most of the examples of these "perception gates" should be things of convenience, or bonus, not neccessity. Having things be locked off for certain players can create an unfun experience, even if they are unable to experience the content through their own choices.
Temmi said:Having things be locked off for certain players can create an unfun experience...
Don't forget, "fun" comes in different types:
Type I Fun: Is fun the entire time you're doing it; you're not glad when it's over and want it to keep going on and on.
Type II Fun: Sucks while you're doing it, but exciting to brag about later or look back on. Some of the best stories come from Type II Fun.
Type III Fun: Not fun while you're doing it, you often feel your life is threatened, certain doom is usually at hand, and half the time it ends in a harrowing rescue. Afterwards, you swear to never attempt anything similar ever again. Type III Fun is almost always a good learning experience (in games).
The lazy answer to game design is to design exclusively for Type I, but I encourage VR to bake all three types into Pantheon.
I think perception gating should be limited to quests and/or non-combat areas. IIRC they mentioned at one point in the stream they don't like the idea of blocking off entire combat areas for those without perception/access to perception keys, so it would more be used for rooms with non-combat NPCs that might have some quests or share lore about the area with the player.
I have played games with invisible walls in the landscape to prevent you from going where the developers don't want you to go. I definitely don't like them - thus my comment.
If illusory walls are limited to dungeon mechanics I have no issue with them as long as there is a reasonable way to cope with them. In other words - don't make the perception required to notice them and move them so high that very few of us will have it and a group will need to spend an hour spamming pleas for one of the few people able to do so.
Iksar said:I think perception gating should be limited to quests and/or non-combat areas. IIRC they mentioned at one point in the stream they don't like the idea of blocking off entire combat areas for those without perception/access to perception keys, so it would more be used for rooms with non-combat NPCs that might have some quests or share lore about the area with the player.
Precisely. Here is the link: 00:47:59 - Perception as a Content Gate
I'm a little confused by perception not being a content gate. Plain and simple, if you can only get a quest with perception, that is content you can only access with perception. The very nature of a skill like perception means that some things will only be available if you have trained it.
As for the walls idea, I just thought having them "feel" physical due to low perception would be a cool way of adding another layer to the illusory walls that ocurred in EQ1. I'm not suggesting entire branches of the dungeon be shut off this way, but maybe there is a treasure chest behind an illusory wall that respawns every 8 hours. Some people would walk right by without noticing it, while others would get some small reward.
I also agree, I think perception should be shareable with your group. If it is not it would be harder to get people to follow the trail of crumbs with you.
Not a content gate in the sense that whole areas and named mobs won't be gated by perception but some NPCs or quests might only be available through it. The perception system seems directed toward questing/lore in general so gating certain quests behind it makes sense the same way that a player who doesn't partake in crafting wouldn't have access to certain crafter only benefits...or perhaps the same as crafters can give/sell their value to others, a player who worked their perception up could share the quests with others or allow their group use of shortcuts in dungeons.
But not something where it's "Oh we can't go into this wing of the dungeon because no one has high enough perception."
Shai said:Iksar said:The perception system seems directed toward questing/lore...
Nobody knows for sure, but I suspect you might thinking of these things as a bit more siloed than you should.
No, actually there has been an official answer on this and as usual, Iksar is correct. Listen to Joppa's explanations here:
00:56:44 - Leveling up by grinding vs. questing
00:59:57 - Decision to become a Keeper
Bazgrim said:No, actually...
*shrug* that's a pretty assertive position given the references. The most recent stream featured the group discovering a key using the perception system, so there's that: https://youtu.be/QWgKSQJtHrA?t=11m15s
Shai said:*shrug* that's a pretty assertive position given the references. The most recent stream featured the group discovering a key using the perception system, so there's that: https://youtu.be/QWgKSQJtHrA?t=11m15s
The explaination here is more important: https://youtu.be/QWgKSQJtHrA?t=38m40s
Shai said:Bazgrim said:No, actually...
*shrug* that's a pretty assertive position given the references. The most recent stream featured the group discovering a key using the perception system, so there's that: https://youtu.be/QWgKSQJtHrA?t=11m15s
In the "Perception as a Content Gate" link I provided above, Joppa specifically states that the key is just a proof of concept and not actually a good example of how Perception will act as a whole. Perception will be optional and will not block you from important content such as major bosses. It will only unlock certain "flavor" content to expand on lore. I expect that particular Perception trigger in Halnir Caves to change soon as it was intended to just experiment with the mechanics of it, not actually serve as content gating.
Edit: Iksar linked the explanation again above
Bazgrim said:Perception will be optional and will not block you from important content such as major bosses.
Ok, so... it will gate content, but that content won't be "important?" There's a value-judgement there about the relative importance of content, but back to Iksar's post that I originally responded to in which he said:
Iksar said:But not something where it's "Oh we can't go into this wing of the dungeon because no one has high enough perception."
That's actually a very plausible scenario. Though I conceed that it might not contain "important" content as you've defined it.
Shai said:Bazgrim said:Perception will be optional and will not block you from important content such as major bosses.
Ok, so... it will gate content, but that content won't be "important?" There's a value-judgement there about the relative importance of content, but back to Iksar's post that I originally responded to in which he said:
Iksar said:But not something where it's "Oh we can't go into this wing of the dungeon because no one has high enough perception."
That's actually a very plausible scenario. Though I conceed that it might not contain "important" content as you've defined it.
The distinction is that the content on the other side would just be "flavor" content, as described by Joppa. It's optional content for the lore junkies that just want to learn more about the history of the area they're in. To be more clear, it may be "important" to some people and those people will find it worth it to take the necessary steps to level up their Perception skills in order to find it and learn more about the lore. But it won't be "required" for the average person who is focused primarily on leveling up and getting gear. Also keep in mind, these locked doors to "flavor content" with keys that can only be acquired with Perception will probably the exception rather than the norm.
However, perception WILL be gating in a way, by design. With a poor perceoption skill you won't be getting quests. Some of those questss may be somewhat important.
What I think Joppa meant was that you won't be blocked from going anywhere because of a poor perception skill, not that there won't be "additional content" available to you due to a good perception skill. With that in mind, I could see secret passages based on perception. However, were I to do it, I wouldn't stop you from entering it if you have a poor perception an "accidentally find it". I would just tie a good perception skill into seeing that there was a secret passage there.
In Divinity: Original Sin if you don't have enough Perception you literally miss out.
Obviously they are careful not to put main story lines behind Perception, but you can miss out on some good side quests and good treasure.
Once I realised this I started again and made sure at least one character always had very high Perception. It sucks to miss out on 'stuff' just because you didn't raise a stat or practice a skill.
In Pillars of Eternity you need a character with high Mechanics skill *and* you need them to walk everywhere at least once while creeping in Stealth mode or you miss stuff. Can be annoying...
I'm hoping in PRF if at least one in the group has Perception you'll all be fine, but there's going to be pressure on everyone to be able to do it and I'm not sure how I feel about potentially missing 'content' whatever it is.