Forums » Crafting and Gathering

Astrology Skill/Profession

    • 258 posts
    February 17, 2018 12:41 AM PST


    EDITED: Scroll down to see the updated version of the idea!

    Up late, been working... taking a break. Browsing the forums and had a random idea, so I thought I would post it. :P

    What about another crafting skill / profession, Astrology? Bear with me... things are about to get weird...

    - Skill gain in this profession would require temple tithes and item sacrifices (for which you get "divination" points or some such, which act as "mats" for the skill / profession) and, essentially, star gazing (and a telescope?).
    - To activate the skill (for the purpose of skill gains) you must be outside (and it must be night?). You look up at the stars (with your nifty telescope). Your character "studies the stars" or "studies the mystical energies of the cosmos". Or whatever. Every once in a while you discover something, and slowly you acquire "revelations".
    - These revelations basically unlock access to the main purpose of Astrology... group-wide boons (or should they be single-target?). To activate one of these boons (and only one at a time can be active), which can be done anywhere--even inside of dungeons and at any time of day or night, all one needs is to have acquired the appropriate revelation (think of it as a "recipe") and cast the boon with your divination points (mats). Then, bam. The group receives the desired boon, which lasts for X amount of time, just like a player buff.
    - Astrology skill gains may only be made at night, but the boons may be activated at any time, day or night.

    Just throwing ideas out there... Boons could be anything from +5% XP bonus (expensive in terms of divination points), +X% melee (or magical) damage against a specific mob type (gnolls, goblins, orcs, etc...), +HP regen, +Mana regen, +AC, +Stats, +Magic Resists, +Environmental Resists, etc... Lots and lots of options here.

    Allow only one astrologist buff per group? (Only one active on a player at any given time to avoid balance issues.)

    Maybe restrict this skill / profession to certain classes, like Druids, Wizards, and Summoners? Just a thought. I wouldn't care if it were available to everyone.

    The idea is to make the profession a fun, interesting, new thing... Useful in the field, , money / item sink, make it NOT overpowered... and it's another thing that may draw a fair share of people, making the other professions more lucrative (and thus more rewarding).

    Additionally, what if this profession could create cards / maps that people can use on themselves when there is nobody available? Similar to "buff" scrolls? I imagine that if there are cards / maps, they should be difficult to make, relatively exepensive, and shouldn't be quite as good as having the actual player put the buff on another player.

    Would love to hear any thoughts / suggestions!


    This post was edited by Kaen at February 21, 2018 10:46 PM PST
    • 1785 posts
    February 17, 2018 11:16 AM PST

    I like the general concept.... but is it really a crafting thing?  It almost feels like it should be tied to the Perception system, in a way.

    • 258 posts
    February 17, 2018 11:40 AM PST

    I guess in terms of how the skill would be raised, the need for balance, and the desire for limited availability, I thought it would fit best here. Besides, the way I imagine it it would be more of a service offered to players. Sometimes the service is offered for tips / free / at cost to friends, group mates, and guild mates. Other times maybe people / groups who desire an astrologer's services are willing to hire one.

    I just thought it would be a fun, different kind of "crafting" skill whereby it's more of a service instead of a tangible product. Perhaps somewhat akin to Enchanting in WoW.

    But just out of curiosity, how do you see something like this tying into the perception system? :D


    This post was edited by Kaen at February 17, 2018 1:33 PM PST
    • 2138 posts
    February 17, 2018 3:06 PM PST

    My cconcept of the idea may get too busy. Generally speaking it is this: I once heard somone say they did not want to do a certain thing- it wasn't frivolous(like, do I buy eggs?), it was a deep kind of quasi-emotional thing- because "the stars weren't in the right position" or "I have to wait untill the stars are in the right position" kind of thing. Now this was stated not in blind adherance to astronomical patterns but rather as their best way to express a general and broad influence that was somewhat inexplicable although by no means insurmountable. A little bit lighter than a hunch, as I understood it.

    How about: the Ogre has the astro-nomy/logy skill. Divided into two parts: nomy= where they are, logy= what they mean when they are there. Lets take a Solstice  or equinox as a simple example. It maybe one of the first things learned, the Ogre- aware that the Summer Equinox is happening form looking at the stars, could call  the boon of the summer equinox upon the group like +5 cold resist or +1 stamina regen or something. And you can imagine each one: Fall, death, increased sensitivity or agi; Winter, preservation, +hp's; Spring growth, regeneration,  or the complete opposite, whatever. 

     

    This is where my idea gets busy. Suppose the Ogre is so well versed that there is a list of boons from which to choose from (kinda like the EQ ranger ragering thing) the more he knows of the stars, the more refined the boons. For instance  the summer solstice, yes, BUT with betelguise rising! means- increased taunt in addition or whatever(heh). And of course- Different in different parts of the world that would also have ot be learned - like; when you see the southern cross for the first time (sings) and then have ot learn what THAT means.

    However if a situation where there were many groups of which many ogres were a part of such groups- they could all interpret the stars according ot their skill and apply the boon to all those groups in a very broad area. As a sort of broad area effect. Heh, I just like the image of Ogres looking up to the firmament at the same time, searching for their boon and they would have to confer " I got cold", I got taunt" "my skill is low let me get cold, you get food preservation".


    This post was edited by Manouk at February 17, 2018 3:09 PM PST
    • 258 posts
    February 17, 2018 3:24 PM PST

    Manouk said:

    My cconcept of the idea may get too busy. Generally speaking it is this: I once heard somone say they did not want to do a certain thing- it wasn't frivolous(like, do I buy eggs?), it was a deep kind of quasi-emotional thing- because "the stars weren't in the right position" or "I have to wait untill the stars are in the right position" kind of thing. Now this was stated not in blind adherance to astronomical patterns but rather as their best way to express a general and broad influence that was somewhat inexplicable although by no means insurmountable. A little bit lighter than a hunch, as I understood it.

    How about: the Ogre has the astro-nomy/logy skill. Divided into two parts: nomy= where they are, logy= what they mean when they are there. Lets take a Solstice  or equinox as a simple example. It maybe one of the first things learned, the Ogre- aware that the Summer Equinox is happening form looking at the stars, could call  the boon of the summer equinox upon the group like +5 cold resist or +1 stamina regen or something. And you can imagine each one: Fall, death, increased sensitivity or agi; Winter, preservation, +hp's; Spring growth, regeneration,  or the complete opposite, whatever. 

     

    This is where my idea gets busy. Suppose the Ogre is so well versed that there is a list of boons from which to choose from (kinda like the EQ ranger ragering thing) the more he knows of the stars, the more refined the boons. For instance  the summer solstice, yes, BUT with betelguise rising! means- increased taunt in addition or whatever(heh). And of course- Different in different parts of the world that would also have ot be learned - like; when you see the southern cross for the first time (sings) and then have ot learn what THAT means.

    However if a situation where there were many groups of which many ogres were a part of such groups- they could all interpret the stars according ot their skill and apply the boon to all those groups in a very broad area. As a sort of broad area effect. Heh, I just like the image of Ogres looking up to the firmament at the same time, searching for their boon and they would have to confer " I got cold", I got taunt" "my skill is low let me get cold, you get food preservation".




    Edit: Alright, I finally had a chance to re-read it. Made a lot more sense to me this time haha. I guess I was just tired before. I love the idea! It's very much what I was imagining but much more in-depth.


    This post was edited by Kaen at February 18, 2018 12:48 PM PST
    • 3237 posts
    February 19, 2018 5:30 AM PST

    I would like to see something like this tied into the in-game calendar and rather than allowing players to acquire buffs, make it so they can "acclimate with the stars" to take advantage of an opportune solstice, equinox, full moon, etc.  What I mean by that is this ... maybe there are certain bonuses that are available to crafters if they are made aware of them.  If you want to craft the +1 version of a pair of bracers that require some sort of earthly component then you craft them during a specific time and on a specific day.  It's possible to "get lucky" and make the +1 version at any time but if you spend time working with an astrologist, they can teach you how to leverage these special events.  The astrologists could create cards that they can sell to other players that can then be used to unlock the knowledge of each individual event on the calendar.  This wouldn't guarantee an HQ (high quality) craft but rather increase the really low percentage to something slightly higher.

    If you have the card for the nightly event on October 14'th, you will permanently gain that bonus when you craft something during that window.  You can tie certain resources/components to be more effective during a certain season or event.  This might not be something that all crafters could take advantage of ... but anybody in the business of making actual goods, I think it could work.  This is how FFXI worked.  You could create +1 or even +2 versions of food/drink, armor, jewelery, weapons, etc.  They had these events similar to what I described here but rather than players having to acclimate with them, they were universally available to anybody.  So take that same concept but flesh it out a bit and allow players to offer that knowledge as a service.  I don't know if this is in line with your original idea but I figured I would add another angle to consider.  Hope it helps!


    This post was edited by oneADseven at February 19, 2018 5:32 AM PST
    • 1785 posts
    February 19, 2018 8:38 AM PST

    Kaen said:

    I guess in terms of how the skill would be raised, the need for balance, and the desire for limited availability, I thought it would fit best here. Besides, the way I imagine it it would be more of a service offered to players. Sometimes the service is offered for tips / free / at cost to friends, group mates, and guild mates. Other times maybe people / groups who desire an astrologer's services are willing to hire one.

    I just thought it would be a fun, different kind of "crafting" skill whereby it's more of a service instead of a tangible product. Perhaps somewhat akin to Enchanting in WoW.

    But just out of curiosity, how do you see something like this tying into the perception system? :D

     

    So, as I understand it, Perception will allow us to see things in the environment that others might not notice - essentially, "prompting" us in some way if we spot something we can learn more about.  If I think about astrology as "reading the stars" there's not a more literal way that happens than by literally looking up at the sky.  So, your description of the way astrology could work made me think about how Perception could work.

    • 258 posts
    February 19, 2018 4:37 PM PST

    I think both of you are hitting good points here. It's not what I'd originally envisioned, but I like how the idea is evolving. I'll give it some more thought. :)

    • 83 posts
    February 20, 2018 9:31 AM PST

    The concept just seems like... a lot of work to balance and implement. Having it take the place of a Crafting profession is an interesting thought, and it's certainly a creative idea, but the main reason why I'm not a fan of this concept is the fact that, for gameplay reasons, the mechanic would have to be consistent from race-to-race, and these are people that developed under entirely different skies. For the lore of Terminus specifically, it is a little immersion breaking that they would have a shared tradition of divining from the stars (particularly since not all of them even had stars to gaze upon!)

    • 3237 posts
    February 20, 2018 10:52 AM PST

    I'm not sure if the immersion counter argument would hold up with this.  Are we going to see other crafting professions be limited baced on race?   Gnomes don't have a tank archetype available, does this mean they shouldn't be able to become an armorsmith?  Skar don't seem like the type that would get involved in any crafting profession.   I think each race will have started new traditions after arriving to Terminus and if there is something magical about the stars of this planet, I'm fine with each race evolving a little bit to take advantage of it.  If immersion is going to be cited for any reason then it should be consistent.  I'll have to do some digging but it's my understanding that crafting professions will be universally available to all races.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at February 20, 2018 11:00 AM PST
    • 83 posts
    February 20, 2018 11:53 AM PST

    There's a bit of a difference between independently developing blacksmithing or weaving and developing a tradition involving using the stars as a window into the future. If you wanted to create a magic system around astrology that's one thing, but it should be a class at that point, not a tradeskill. I'll admit to being open to the concept that it's just the stars above Terminus that have this magic about them, but the idea that every race would develop this system is a little out there, even through cross-pollination.

    If astrology was introduced into the game, I think a better way of doing so is to make it a category of spells that Summoners, Druids, Wizards, or Shaman have access to. Having it as a tradeskill was a very creative idea, but I don't think it holds up under scrutiny.

    • 3237 posts
    February 20, 2018 12:11 PM PST

    I think the idea still has plenty of room to evolve a bit before folding under the weight of scrutiny.  Let's see how Kaen responds to some of the feedback.  I am particularly interested in the calendar angle as it would allow astrologists to offer a tangible service.  It's possible that the calendar cards could offer both PVE or crafting bonuses.  The only part I'm having trouble with is how the astrologists would level up.  I'm not sure if doing anything through a telescope would make sense.  If you can create a mini-game and leveling curve similar to the other professions (possibly through card research/creation) then maybe it could work.  Looking forward to seeing it fleshed out a bit more.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at February 20, 2018 12:16 PM PST
    • 2138 posts
    February 20, 2018 2:01 PM PST

    I'm sorry I should have been more clear, I saw it as a class specific skill. Like an EQ ranger would look at a table to see which monsters were near (tracking). The closer monster being the one at the top. The list changing as they moved toward the 5th one down- making the 5th one down climb up to the top of the list as they got closer.

    For astrology it would be different as the stars dont move that much, but the class with that skill would exercise that skill by activating a list (like an EQ ranger- tracking/rangering) that would tell them what star positions are currently present. The refinement comes with the improvement of the skill, so where the novice would see "solstice" on the top of the list, the apprentice would see 'solstice" at the top and beneath it as a sub-category "Betelguise rising". The novice could only choose "solsctice" but the apprentice could choose 'betelguise rising" under solstice. The betelguise rising would have the same benefits of the solstice + the benefit of betelguise rising.

    A fun kink might be having it limited to nighttime- in other words the astrological boon(the list) could only be identified at night when the stars coud be seen, and then once seen, could then be called during the next day- because the stars dont move that much But the stars have to be seen, first. As they got better at the skill perhaps a telescope or sextant would need to be crafted or quested so they could take a look during the day. 

    I am not sure how far the buff would impact- I would like to see it cover a large geographical area once called, but perhaps only the group would be better. It could even be deteimental- weaken everyone in he environment, even the monsters. 

    • 7 posts
    February 21, 2018 1:56 AM PST
    Love the idea! If it is going to be implemented as a crafting profession like OP proposed, I suggest making it a secondary profession, like fishing or cooking or archeology in Wow. Something that anyone can pick up and progress in without occupying the slot of the "main" crafting professions. If you actually have to look manually at the sky and search for staralignments, i guess the sky can't be generic, static and might be a difficulty for devs to implement. Lots of cool ideas and input here
    • 411 posts
    February 21, 2018 4:46 AM PST

    I also love the idea of using the stars. It only seems natural that every civilization would seek to use the stars for superstitious reasons and/or practical reasons.

    I agree with okkeh that it would probably be best implemented as a secondary profession that all can take. However, I think it is best to avoid any situation where the general gaming population deems it as a necessary pre-requisite for combat. I believe that if it offered resistances, multipliers, or other combat benefits, then everyone would be consulting the stars every night like clockwork. I think that you could implement some downsides to prevent this.

    If we are reading the stars to determine our fortune, then shouldn't there be bad fortunes also? This would need to be a personal reading that you can perform or not by your own choice. The result could be a bonus or reduction in exp rates, crafting abilities, or resistances. However, knowing your fortune gives you a "clarity of fortune" buff, always yielding a small combat bonus (-1% fizzle/miss/resist chance or something). This would make astrology a gamble, but with a small boost regardless of the outcome to tilt the odds in the player's favor.

    Instead of all that, maybe you can read the stars and learn what boons they hold, but in order to get the effect of them you need a particular alchemists' potion. Tonight the northern stars are showing bonus cold resistance, the southern +armor, the eastern +exp gain, and the western +magic damage. However, in order to get your cold resistance benefit from the reading, you need to drink the "potion of the northern stars".

    Just a couple ideas.

    • 2138 posts
    February 21, 2018 9:41 AM PST

    *brainstorming off the comments*

    So the astrologer- as a class skill- can call a general boon on the group(area?) that is not too OP. 

    The astrologer - as a tradeskill- can write horoscopes for people based on the others race and class. The horoscopes act like one-use spells or potions. The horoscopes would be mild like "increased luck"  and not OP. But you dont know how much increased luck- good or bad- you get untill you open the horoscope and use it, neither does the astrologer. The astrologer knows the stars favor increased luck at this time, but the amount of luck could vary per recipient - maybe based on a combination of  race and starting city and class. The horoscopes are temporary, they will only last for as long as the stars are in alignment, however many game days that would be. once the time is up, they poof. They are no trade. The horoscope "buff" only lasts for 1 in game day. You can only have one horoscope at a time 

    I could see things like Luck, faction(gender specific), money favor,  anything that could go either way. So if you got a horoscope that "increased" faction to female dark myr's you would not know if it increased bad faction or good faction untill you tried something while under the influence of the horoscope. Same with money favor, mobs might drop -/+1 gold.

    Milder horoscopes could have like a small simon-says aspect to them like "you need to drink more fluids while the sun is in blahblahblah"- with a number that you have to consume by end of day or "make sure to get alot of exercise today" and indicates how many steps you need to take. The milder horoscopes however would be random and the astrologer would not know what it was- it would only be discovered by the recipient when they opened it.

     

     

     

    • 258 posts
    February 21, 2018 10:43 PM PST

    Thanks for all of the awesome responses! I've given this some more thought and taken everyone's feedback into consideration.

    @Darchias Most ancient civilizations studied / worshipped the sky and the stars. I assume most races of Terminus would have studied the skies and stars of their home worlds. To me, it would make sense that they would go through a process of rediscovery / interpretation in this new world.

    This is what I've come up with:

    Who can pick up Astrology?
    TBD. I'm conflicted between select classes, pure magic users only, or making the profession available to everyone. Regardless, I think this skill (for the version I will describe below) should be considered a primary tradeskill.

    Required Items:
    Before beginning, Astrologers must acquire a telescope and a sextant, both of which can only be purchased from player crafters. These instruments will have several tiers from beginner to master quality. Better quality instruments will be required as the Astrologer's skill rises. Over time, these items become worn and must be replaced.

    Additionally, Astrologers will require Celestial Dusts. One Celestial Dust is consumed each time the Astrologer uses his "Study" skill to study the celestial bodies. The Celestial Dust is (automaticaly) sprinkled upon the telescope's lens in order to allow players to see and read the magical energy of the celestial bodies. Dusts are gained by breaking items at a shrine. The dusts will also later be used by the Astrologer during the item creation process (discussed later). Side note: Perhaps allow one dust to last for 2-3 "Study" skill uses.

    Needing to break items is important for two reasons. Firstly, it ensures that raising the skill will have a high cost associated with it. This will make the tradeskill less common and more respected, which IMO is a very good thing. Secondly, it contributes to the health of the economy by leading people to recycle items, permanently removing those items from circulation.

    How do you skill-up Astrology?
    There will be two things to consider.

    The first is simple skill gains. This can be achieved only from dusk until dawn by studying the sun, moon, and stars (subject to change), using the Astrologer's "Study" skill. As previously mentioned, each time the "Study" skill is used, it will consume one magical dust, and each time the "Study" skill is used, the Astrologer has a chance to gain one skill point. Perhaps different tiers of dusts will be available depdendant on item level. This forces higher skilled Astrologers to break higher level items.

    The second objective is to "discover" all the different things there are to discover in regards to celestial bodies (constellations, for example). Essentialy, these things that are out there to discover become the Astrologer's "Recipes" (after initial discovery) for item creation and assorted Astrologer stuffs. There will be no merchant for recipes. As the Astrologer gains skill, more "discoveries" will become available. Discoveries are made through use of the "Study" skill. (I think discoveries should come somewhat randomly to the Astrologer. It might not make perfect sense, but it doesn't allow for people being told exactly when to use their skill, which could trivialize the process. TBD later... Plenty of discussion to be had here, I think.)

    Edit: Perhaps constellations and such rotate slightly every game night cycle, some can no longer be seen while others come into view.

    So what does the Astrologer do?
    At this point, I'm very open to suggestions, but would like much of the craft to center around creating magical "cards" (consumables) that can be sold to other players. Some random ideas I had--all are open to discussion:

    - Astrologers, through the use of their magic dusts and maybe some other components, may teleport to wizard spires / druid rings. This would be a SELF-ONLY port. The discoveries for these would only become available at max skill.
    - Astrologers may restore a percentage of a player's XP loss (only up to 25%-50%) from deaths occuring within the last 2 hours of that player's game time. Requires dusts and other components. Yes, some players could potentially regain XP, but at a significant cost (many dusts--gained from item recycle--and other materials). Not sure how people will receive this idea. It will take a little bit of sting out of death for some people, but it will also benefit the game's economy. Seems like a fair enough trade to me! Maybe 25% at a lower skill level, and 50% at max skill level.
    - Astrologers can create "cards" that can be traded to other players. These cards are boons (buffs), and do not persist through death. Additionally, only one boon may be active on a player at a time. These cards can allow for one of the following temporary boons.

    1) Greater chance at success for creating items while Blacksmithing (one specific card for each specific skill--all of which may only be created after having initially made the appropriate "discovery"). Another card would be "Greater chance at success while Fishing." 30 minute duration.
    2)Greater chance at gaining skill points at X tradeskill (again, a different card for each specific trade skill). 30 minute duration.
    3)Temporary out-of-combat health regen or mana regen buff. Different tiers of regeneration. Nothing game-breaking, but a minor enhancement. Expensive to make. 1 hr duration. Does not persist through death.
    4) Out-of-combat health or mana restoration (consumption takes 10 sec channel, during which time the player cannot move or use any ability). Again, nothing game-breaking. Expensive to make. Maybe 10%, 15%, 20%, restoration at lower skill levels, 25% restoration at max skill level. Usable once every 20 minutes?

    (I think there are tons of great possibilities for boons that wouldn't cause significant balance issues, especially at higher levels. Would love to hear some more ideas!)

    - At max skill, allow for "Particle effect" discoveries, whereby Astrologers can imbue some weapons / shields / off-hands with particle effects. Perhaps somewhat restricted as to what can be given an effect. Also, items that already have effects cannot have those effects replaced/overrided. Make this extraordinarily expensive with a chance to destroy the item and the "card" upon failure. Cool, fun feature, item recycle just to attempt, and failure results in an additional item recycle lol.

    - Provide minor "enhancements" to items crafted by other players, such as potions (making potions more potent).

    oneADseven said:

    I would like to see something like this tied into the in-game calendar and rather than allowing players to acquire buffs, make it so they can "acclimate with the stars" to take advantage of an opportune solstice, equinox, full moon, etc.  What I mean by that is this ... maybe there are certain bonuses that are available to crafters if they are made aware of them.  If you want to craft the +1 version of a pair of bracers that require some sort of earthly component then you craft them during a specific time and on a specific day.  It's possible to "get lucky" and make the +1 version at any time but if you spend time working with an astrologist, they can teach you how to leverage these special events.  The astrologists could create cards that they can sell to other players that can then be used to unlock the knowledge of each individual event on the calendar.  This wouldn't guarantee an HQ (high quality) craft but rather increase the really low percentage to something slightly higher.

    If you have the card for the nightly event on October 14'th, you will permanently gain that bonus when you craft something during that window.  You can tie certain resources/components to be more effective during a certain season or event.  This might not be something that all crafters could take advantage of ... but anybody in the business of making actual goods, I think it could work.  This is how FFXI worked.  You could create +1 or even +2 versions of food/drink, armor, jewelery, weapons, etc.  They had these events similar to what I described here but rather than players having to acclimate with them, they were universally available to anybody.  So take that same concept but flesh it out a bit and allow players to offer that knowledge as a service.  I don't know if this is in line with your original idea but I figured I would add another angle to consider.  Hope it helps!



    Love this idea.

    Manouk also presents many great ideas for how the calendar events could work.

    As Nephele suggests, Astrology could also be tied into the perception system.

    @Nolvu mentioned palm-reading. Would be cool if every 20 min or so an Astrologer could do a palm-reading, which if successful could grant some sort of boon to a player. If unsuccessful, perhaps the Astrologer gets a temporary faction/reputation hit.

    Would love to hear some more thoughts on this! I'm also going to go back and re-read the comments and see if I missed some good stuffs. I'm sure I did, so I will probably update this post in the near future. :P


    This post was edited by Kaen at February 22, 2018 11:42 AM PST
    • 83 posts
    February 22, 2018 7:12 AM PST

    @Kaen All human ancient civilizations stared at the sky in search on answers. Humans has the same sky, similar atmospheric conditions, and similar cognitive tendencies. Would the Dark Myr, who, for much of their evolution, resided in the depths of the ocean and did not even have the ability to breach the surface for more than a moment, have similar tendencies? Would the Ogres, who are too preoccupied with each other and showing dominance, spare the time to contemplate the sky beyond the weather? Would the remaining Gnomes who had been locked away into Skyhold for the sin of being more concerned with power and the energy from under the crust of their native Stormona than their fellow Gnomes, have any recollection of their previous, stargazing tradition? Would the Skar, short-sighted, preoccupied by hatred, and most importantly, a subterranean race, give a single solitary care to the lights far off in the sky?

    I don't know how many years the races of Terminus have resided there since the lore listed in their Race pages. The Gnomes, in their thirst for secrets and arcane knowledge, would undoubtedly of rediscovered the lost art of reading the skies. The Dark Myr, who now can walk above the land and may stare curiously at the changing sky, may also rediscover this tradition. Ogres, always looking for a way to get ahead, may acquire enough knowledge to utilize astrology from others. The Skar surely have members intelligent enough to develop the art to more effectively call down curses upon their enemies. My supposition is that the races of Terminus are not too far removed from their Racial entries, and I doubt severely that they would develop the art quickly, if at all. A tradeskill, in order to be balanced, would need to be general enough to be used by all. Astrology is simply too specific of a cultural tradition to rise independently in every race in Pantheon.

    • 3237 posts
    February 22, 2018 8:48 AM PST

    Darchias,

    I feel that same argument could be applied to other tradeskill professions.  Archai were bred as slaves so I don't think any tradeskill would be a part of their culture unless they were tasked to learn these professions by their masters.  Coming to Terminus was liberating for their race so it makes sense that they would create new traditions to symbolize that freedom.  Ogres don't have a single cloth wearing class so why would they bother to learn tailoring?  There are plenty of angles that could be considered in regards to why any race wouldn't have much of a vested interest in a particular tradeskill profession based on culture or history alone but that shouldn't stop them from expanding their horizons and adapting to Terminus.

    I'm not a fan of looking for every reason possible to discount an idea coming to fruition.  If something sticks out like a sore thumb then sure, but in the case of culture being tied into tradeskill professions, I think it's too limiting of a factor to apply across the board.  I'm fine with it for adventure classes as we have already seen but even in that situation it's possible that new race/class combinations will open up through progeny.  According to the lore, all races have been on Terminus for at least 365 years with some having been there much longer than that.  That's a pretty significant timeline to work around so the argument that races wouldn't "quickly" develop these skills doesn't hold much water in my opinion.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at February 22, 2018 8:53 AM PST
    • 83 posts
    February 22, 2018 9:22 AM PST

    Ok, I didn't really know about the 365 year figure, so thank you for informing me. If you look at the actual crafts that exist, you'll find there's a bit of a difference in those compared to Astrology.

    Alchemy/Provisioning: These are obvious for much of the same reasons. Any species that evolved cooking at all would, at some point, throw some random plants together and get sick and die, thus 'inventing' poisoncrafting. Medicinal plants can be discovered in much the same way. Cooking was such an essential part of human development into a society that I find it difficult to imagine any species that had developed past hunter/gathering to have discovered it. The Gnome's thirst for knowledge and the fact that they weren't always beings made of energy gives them a pass, but if any race would be inapplicable here it would be the Skar. Still, they are capable of enough intellectualism to be Necromancers and Monks, so they can't all be bloodthirsty savages. We don't really know what the... dietary requirements of the Archai are, so you may have a point on Provisioning in this case. However, they are well-liked by the other races on Terminus, so cross-pollination of such a relatively simple art is easy to imagine.

    Blacksmith: Metal weaponry is such an enormous boon to warfare that it would boggle the mind to imagine even Ogres and Skar not developing metalcraft of some kind. The Skar, remember, were a mercenary client race to the Fs'sok. Even if they did not develop blacksmithing whole cloth, particularly canny Aza'gn would have stolen the art from their masters and the advantage of metal weapons and armor would ensure the practice would not be lost to time.

    Tailoring/Leatherworking: Ogres, at least, still need leather armor to outfit their Druids if nothing else. Even though they don't have any need of Cloth armor, they still need blankets, tents, rope, maybe even ritual clothing. Outfitter is one I cannot think of a good excuse for any race to be unlikely to develop.

    Scribe: The language may change, the methods may differ, but any race capable of magic would have a reason to write that magic down, even if they aren't inclined to develop scribing for more mundane written works.

    Engraving: Writing is often done first on stone or clay tablets before more convenient mediums are developed. We know, at least, that every race has a language and a written form of that language.

    Jewelling and Stonemasonry: While Stonemasonry is more obvious, given the obvious need for construction of walls, independently developing Jewelcrafting is another beast. I am forced to believe that the relatively large value of gems and precious metals will ensure that commercial trade will force this tradeskill to cross-pollinate far more quickly then others due to raw demand.

    Bowyers and Carving: Woodworking is just as obvious as Stonemasonry, but the more specific trades are trickier. Bowyer appears from the brief description, to also be concerned with thrown weapons such as javelins and tomahawks, so you need not restrict it to those who would develop bows. Every race has casters of some stripe, so the creation of magic staves is important to all of them. Looking at lore though, I will have to concede the point. Archai, Gnomes, and Dark Myr would have developed in area where there is little to no wood to work.

    Three-hundred and sixty-five years is a long time for most races. You're right, that's plenty of time to adapt. If Astrology works, I don't see any reason it wouldn't spread to all races just as easily as the creation of any other weapon in that amount of time, if slower due to how obtuse the art is. I suppose I just kept thinking the art was too specific and difficult to learn to spread in even two generations time, but with that amount of time? I can see it.

    • 411 posts
    February 23, 2018 5:19 AM PST

    Kaen said:

    Who can pick up Astrology?
    TBD. I'm conflicted between select classes, pure magic users only, or making the profession available to everyone. Regardless, I think this skill (for the version I will describe below) should be considered a primary tradeskill.

    So what does the Astrologer do?
    At this point, I'm very open to suggestions, but would like much of the craft to center around creating magical "cards" (consumables) that can be sold to other players. Some random ideas I had--all are open to discussion:

    - Astrologers, through the use of their magic dusts and maybe some other components, may teleport to wizard spires / druid rings. This would be a SELF-ONLY port. The discoveries for these would only become available at max skill.
    - Astrologers may restore a percentage of a player's XP loss (only up to 25%-50%) from deaths occuring within the last 2 hours of that player's game time. Requires dusts and other components. Yes, some players could potentially regain XP, but at a significant cost (many dusts--gained from item recycle--and other materials). Not sure how people will receive this idea. It will take a little bit of sting out of death for some people, but it will also benefit the game's economy. Seems like a fair enough trade to me! Maybe 25% at a lower skill level, and 50% at max skill level.
    - Astrologers can create "cards" that can be traded to other players. These cards are boons (buffs), and do not persist through death. Additionally, only one boon may be active on a player at a time. These cards can allow for one of the following temporary boons.

    A couple of notes on the quoted sections.

    1: I think it is important that any primary profession (the kind you can only choose one of) be available to all players in the game. From what we have been told of the other primary professions, they are all accessible to everyone. If it is class/race restricted, then it feels like it should start to fall under a separate category of abilities. If it requires your wizard skills to divine the magics of the stars, then it's a wizard ability and not a profession in my opinion.

    2: Having self-only ports would make it an extremely valuable tool for anyone who is not a wizard/druid, but not very useful for those who are wizards/druids. Even on a long cd, I would bet that this would be invaluable for a raid group contesting open world targets. Raid mob X is up in zone Y, use your astrologer's port regardless of where you are in the world! It would likely be a necessity if there are content races in Pantheon. I like your other suggested benefits better than this one.

    3: Are you saying this would stack with a cleric's rez? So you could die on purpose, cleric rez for say 80% exp recovery, and then use astrologer's recovery for another 50% exp recovery? If so, then it would be costly, but you could buy 30% of the death penalty's experience? Even with a high cost, this seems like dangerous territory where the rich or those who exploit could very quickly boost characters to max level. You could certainly apply restrictions to handle this though. If instead the astrologer's recovery was 50% of the remaining exp debt, then I could agree with it. So a cleric rezzes you for 80% exp recovery, then the astrologer's recovery gets you up to 90% exp recovery.

    4: I like the general direction you're going with the cards. I feel like they should expire after a certain amount of time though. It would be sad if blacksmithing alts could just buy the best card, then use it for the rest of their lives crafting away in a safe city. Expiration would ensure that the market needs replenishment.

    The rest of the stuff seems solid. I still prefer it being a secondary profession though, but everyone has their own vision :).


    This post was edited by Ainadak at February 23, 2018 5:24 AM PST
    • 3237 posts
    February 23, 2018 11:25 AM PST

    If Pantheon does end up using secondary professions, I could definitely see Astrology as something that would qualify.  I do agree that it shouldn't be limited to any specific race or class and also see plenty of value in the "card" angle.  Part of me thinks that they should be permanent, though.  I envision them as being utilized as a "recipe" of sorts.  Once you unlock that recipe, it's yours.  That said, it should take quite a bit of resources to create each card, especially the more powerful ones.  Obtaining the card that grants increased "high quality" rolls on crafting during the Fall Equinox should be a pretty sizable accomplishment.  I would rather see a situation where there are rare and highly sought after cards than players using them as a component and constantly needing to replenish.  The timing factor is also pretty cool to consider.  If the Fall Equinox is coming up, the cards that can be utilized during that period will have higher value.  You might be able to purchase those same cards for a discount after the Equinox is over since it would be awhile before it came up again.  I love supply vs demand considerations any time we're talking about crafting or player driven economy.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at February 23, 2018 11:30 AM PST
    • 258 posts
    February 23, 2018 12:03 PM PST

    Ainadak said:

    Kaen said:

    Who can pick up Astrology?
    TBD. I'm conflicted between select classes, pure magic users only, or making the profession available to everyone. Regardless, I think this skill (for the version I will describe below) should be considered a primary tradeskill.

    So what does the Astrologer do?
    At this point, I'm very open to suggestions, but would like much of the craft to center around creating magical "cards" (consumables) that can be sold to other players. Some random ideas I had--all are open to discussion:

    - Astrologers, through the use of their magic dusts and maybe some other components, may teleport to wizard spires / druid rings. This would be a SELF-ONLY port. The discoveries for these would only become available at max skill.
    - Astrologers may restore a percentage of a player's XP loss (only up to 25%-50%) from deaths occuring within the last 2 hours of that player's game time. Requires dusts and other components. Yes, some players could potentially regain XP, but at a significant cost (many dusts--gained from item recycle--and other materials). Not sure how people will receive this idea. It will take a little bit of sting out of death for some people, but it will also benefit the game's economy. Seems like a fair enough trade to me! Maybe 25% at a lower skill level, and 50% at max skill level.
    - Astrologers can create "cards" that can be traded to other players. These cards are boons (buffs), and do not persist through death. Additionally, only one boon may be active on a player at a time. These cards can allow for one of the following temporary boons.

    A couple of notes on the quoted sections.

    1: I think it is important that any primary profession (the kind you can only choose one of) be available to all players in the game. From what we have been told of the other primary professions, they are all accessible to everyone. If it is class/race restricted, then it feels like it should start to fall under a separate category of abilities. If it requires your wizard skills to divine the magics of the stars, then it's a wizard ability and not a profession in my opinion.

    2: Having self-only ports would make it an extremely valuable tool for anyone who is not a wizard/druid, but not very useful for those who are wizards/druids. Even on a long cd, I would bet that this would be invaluable for a raid group contesting open world targets. Raid mob X is up in zone Y, use your astrologer's port regardless of where you are in the world! It would likely be a necessity if there are content races in Pantheon. I like your other suggested benefits better than this one.

    3: Are you saying this would stack with a cleric's rez? So you could die on purpose, cleric rez for say 80% exp recovery, and then use astrologer's recovery for another 50% exp recovery? If so, then it would be costly, but you could buy 30% of the death penalty's experience? Even with a high cost, this seems like dangerous territory where the rich or those who exploit could very quickly boost characters to max level. You could certainly apply restrictions to handle this though. If instead the astrologer's recovery was 50% of the remaining exp debt, then I could agree with it. So a cleric rezzes you for 80% exp recovery, then the astrologer's recovery gets you up to 90% exp recovery.

    4: I like the general direction you're going with the cards. I feel like they should expire after a certain amount of time though. It would be sad if blacksmithing alts could just buy the best card, then use it for the rest of their lives crafting away in a safe city. Expiration would ensure that the market needs replenishment.

    The rest of the stuff seems solid. I still prefer it being a secondary profession though, but everyone has their own vision :).



    For 1 and 2, I agree. Maybe for the ports, only allow ports to one or two locations (shrines or temples in or near cities?) so that it's "handy" but not something people will feel like they MUST have.

    For 3, I would absolutely not want it to stack in any way with a rez's XP return. If a person rezes and that rez does not restore XP, or if no rez is available, then I can see this skill being handy. But if a person rezes you, and you get ANY XP back from that rez (be it 10% or 100%), the Astrology skill should no longer work for that person for that death.

    For 4, I like 1AD7's idea about the cards and the calendar and unlocks. I think it would be cool if those were permanent, but maybe have these give minor permanent boons, like increased crafting speed and/or a slight increase to skill gain. My vision for the majority of the cards was to have them work like buff consumables. So if you buy a card, you can use it whenever or keep it however long, but once you use it it is destroyed, and the buffs gained from these cards only last for, say, an hour.

    oneADseven said:

    If Pantheon does end up using secondary professions, I could definitely see Astrology as something that would qualify.  I do agree that it shouldn't be limited to any specific race or class and also see plenty of value in the "card" angle.  Part of me thinks that they should be permanent, though.  I envision them as being utilized as a "recipe" of sorts.  Once you unlock that recipe, it's yours.  That said, it should take quite a bit of resources to create each card, especially the more powerful ones.  Obtaining the card that grants increased "high quality" rolls on crafting during the Fall Equinox should be a pretty sizable accomplishment.  I would rather see a situation where there are rare and highly sought after cards than players using them as a component and constantly needing to replenish.  The timing factor is also pretty cool to consider.  If the Fall Equinox is coming up, the cards that can be utilized during that period will have higher value.  You might be able to purchase those same cards for a discount after the Equinox is over since it would be awhile before it came up again.  I love supply vs demand considerations any time we're talking about crafting or player driven economy.



    Definitely on board with this as well. :D

    Love all the ideas and feedback you all have brought. The specifics--bonuses, technical aspects, and all of that--might not be perfectly refined, but I think we've put together something pretty neat! While I wouldn't expect something like this to be injected into the game at this point (unless they've already planned something like it), it could make for a nice addition to the first expansion IMO.


    This post was edited by Kaen at February 23, 2018 12:10 PM PST
    • 2138 posts
    March 17, 2018 9:39 AM PDT

    I know the majority is against "daily's". I am too. However if, in the gaming business world, VR is pressured to consider "daily's" as a effective business model perhaps my idea of horoscopes can be the middle ground. 

    TL;DR synopsis of my idea (not the OP's better idea, heh): Horoscopes are one use only and for one day, can only have one on you at any time, unused horoscopes last only as long as the stars are in position, unused horoscopes poof when the stars change. 2 levels, hi and low horoscopes: hi gives +/- boost to a possibly non-OP "something" that the PC nor the astrologer knows untill the horoscope is used i.e. "increased luck" could be increased bad luck. Low gives the "need to drink water" or "walk amounrt of steps" and here is where it ties into the dreaded "dailys".

    If you got nothing to do, you get a low level horoscope and it has a suggestion. whether the suggestion is good or bad remains to be experienced if the player acts on it. i.e. the player manages their own "dailys".

    OR Horoscopes can be the bridge between those who don't want to build perception. Those who don't can get a horoscope for a small nudge in a certain direction that perception would also lead. 


    This post was edited by Manouk at March 17, 2018 9:39 AM PDT
    • 3016 posts
    May 8, 2018 6:14 PM PDT

    Far as I know we'll be able to offer up old gear, old weapons to our Deities, (probably for buffs or good faction to said Deity)  would this Astrology thing tie in with the Deities? :)