Recently I've been replaying Final Fantasy XII (the single-player game, not one of the MMOs), and I've found myself really appreciating the dual progression system the game uses, even though it feels a little contrived.
A dual system (in Neph's gaming dictionary) is one in which there are two methods of progression, that function independently, but are both important to your character.
FFXII does it like this:
- Exp -> Levels (determine hp/mp caps and boost stats)
- License Points -> Licenses/Skills (determine what equipment you can use, what spells/abilities you can use, and bonuses based on chosen class)
You pick up both simultaneously from doing the same thing (killing stuff). The difference is that while leveling up do to experience is automatic, you get to choose how to spend your license points. There's a progression there too (you have to unlock basic spells before you unlock advanced spells), but it allows you to emphasize the way you want your character to grow.
It's worth noting in their implementation that you can eventually accumulate enough points to unlock *almost* everything available to your class. There are a few special abilities that have their own limit (you can only unlock three of them).
Anyway, playing this got me to thinking about whether/how somethign similar could work in Pantheon (because I am a huge fan of diversity both within and between classes, and of having meaningful choices in character progression). What if:
1. By killing monsters, you earned experience, which went towards your level. Level gave you raw boosts to hp/mana/etc.
2. You earn skill points as you kill monsters. You spend those skill points in some kind of skill progression for your class to unlock/activate different abilities and bonuses. For example, early on you might spend points on the "Kick" skill, allowing you to throw a kick in a fight.
I know other MMOs have implemented things like this before and there are lots of ways it can be done. The closest one I've seen recently is GW2, which allows you to earn points by completing challenges, which you can then spend. People will probably bring up AA systems and talent trees, which are similar but not quite what I'm getting at - the vision I have in my head is a little more free-form, and less template-y than talent trees, and something that you have to do side by side with normal leveling from level 1 all the way up (unlike the EQ1 and EQ2 AA systems)
So the question. How would people feel about a dual progression system for Pantheon? If instead of just getting access to skills, abilities, and spells as you leveled, you had to pick and choose which skills you wanted to unlock or advance for your character? Think of this like an opinion poll. There's no right answer. My request though: You can say you don't like the idea, but take the time to explain why.
I posted something similar in the “How many days to max” thread most of us posted in. I personally think that some form of dual/triple(skills and levels also require breakthrough events) would be a great way to turn PROTF into something a bit different from the standard model. Dual progression is another way prevent players from being able to rush to max level or to really benefit from doing so.
Tacking on my previous post for reference, and yes it also nods at my log power curve soap box.
Trasak
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/7396/how-many-days-do-you-think-it-should-take-to-reach-max
Trasak said:If you look through my posts on this thread or look up my logarithmic curve thread, a method to eliminating the "max level asap" mindset is to have character strength and character depth develop at different rates. Once you hit the character strength plateau you can participate in the majority of the content but without the late level situational abilities you won’t be capable of challenging the highest level/reward content. Only if all the required situational responses were covered by other group members could lower depth characters participate in the high difficulty content. Eventually there will be areas where everyone needs to be at the top of their game and there is no room for low depth characters.
Most MMOs these days do this through gear tiers rather than levels hence the desire to push to max level as that is only the beginning of the game.
An example of character strength vs character depth would be as follows.
1) There is no level based cap on weapon skills, or perhaps no true cap at all, but a fairly brutal exponential increase in the number of attacks required to attain the next level weapon skill with certain bottle necks that require a quest or item to proceed past.
2) Your Melee Combatant skill is 1/10th of your total combined weapon skill for all weapon types. Secondary combat skills like block, repost, parry, double strike, triple strike, and armor pen unlock at certain Melee Combatant skill levels but still may need to be individually unlocked.
3) Your melee chance to hit and damage range is based on your weapon skill.
4) Your HP and stats are attached to your character level and increase on a logarithmic scale and class defining utility power and increase on a linear scale. Exp to level is also an exponential increase across the levels.
If you only ever used one handed slashing weapons then by the time you hit 100 one handed slashing skill you would reach your first skill bottle neck. Also by the point you would hit your first 100 weapon skill your HP and stats, naked, would have reached the logarithmic plateau. Your Melee Combatant skill would only be 10 though and your chance to block and parry would be low and none of the other Melee Combatant skills would be unlocked yet. Additionally powerful weapons are downgraded if your matching skill is not high enough to properly use it.
A full depth Melee Combatant would be one that has managed to level all weapon types to 300 skill can completed all grandmaster challenges as well as having gained all of their class specific utility powers that may also have their own skill ranks and Over Skills.
With this format you can get into the game with all your friends early but to be truly done would be a monumental undertaking.
Food for thought (and maybe development),
Trasak
(P.S. Edit: When you go back to work on your other weapon skills you will be forced to fight lower level mob and effectively de level yourself by having a downgraded weapon until your skill is high enough. With a plateaued HP scale you would be able to go back to the same content you did when your first skill hit 100 without trivializing it.)
I think that what PRF is doing is more complex than adding another xp bar for skill points. There are already going to be many metrics that define the power of your character, not just your level. Also, on a more fundamental level, instead of an xp bar that you have to fill to get a skill, wouldnt you rather have to run out into the world and find it? That being said, I would not be surprised to see a modernized, dynamic AA type of system in a few expansions.
Whatever they are doing - I hope they don't see any bright ideas here and go back to the drawing board. At this point they should only make improvements that do not set back the schedule more than minimally and going from an xp system to an xp/skill system would probably do just that.
Some good ideas here but I don't see changes this major happening this close (Gods willing) to alpha testing.
dorotea said:Whatever they are doing - I hope they don't see any bright ideas here and go back to the drawing board. At this point they should only make improvements that do not set back the schedule more than minimally and going from an xp system to an xp/skill system would probably do just that.
Some good ideas here but I don't see changes this major happening this close (Gods willing) to alpha testing.
If it were beta I would agree with you as beta should be fine tuning and balancing their current builds as well as finishing visuals and scripts. Pre-alpha and alpha are precisely when you make this level of change to the system before all the classes are fleshed out. The days of paid alpha and beta access have hurt the flexibility of the game development industry. In other non-game software developments I have participated in major changes can often be a part of even the beta phase if something really isn’t working or something new is requested by the client. Beta level changes cost more and push releases further than Alpha level changes and pre-alpha is still in the cyclical development process and a great many things could change each and every build, even if it gets reverted the next build.
It's introducing some kind of horizontal progression and I agree with the principle.
Instead of doing it with skill points mostly coupled with the usual xp gain, I would propose doing it by creating new types of XP that would represent different domains in which you could buy skills / bonuses.
For example, there could be these types of xp :
- leveling xp : the classic one, that makes you grow up your level
- class specifics xp : buy class specifics skills/bonuses
- weapon xp : buy weapon skills/bonuses
- defense xp : buy armor/dodge skills/bonuses
- fire resistance xp : buy resist common fire/ magic fire/dragon fire specific bonuses/skills
- magic resistance xp : buy resist charm/fear/magic damage bonuses/skills
- etc ...
If you kill a fire drake that burns and hit hard you get :
- 100 leveling xp
- 100 class specifics xp
- 50 weapon xp
- 100 defense xp
- 100 fire resistance xp
If you kill an orcish enchanter that casts and does not hit with weapon you get :
- 100 leveling xp
- 100 class specifics xp
- 50 weapon xp
- 100 magic resistance xp
Basically, if you wanna increase your fire resistance, fight mobs that burns you, if you wanna increase your defense, fight mobs that hits hard, etc ... the segmentation can of course be different, I'm just illustrating the principle.
Class specific xp given by mobs could also depend on the class of the player, introducing some kind of 'nemesis' gameplay, clerics getting class xp by killing undeads, rangers by killing predators, etc ...
Can't skill-up on greys. Got it. Just like EQ1.
I don't think it's going to fly, Trasak. It was, for example, incredibly difficult/required artificial situations/almost impossible to max out Defense as a caster, or even as a Rogue or non-Warrior/Pally/SK, in EQ1. I mean, you could do it, but if your character is full offense (Rogue) and you never tank, and Max Defense is required for a "full depth" melee character, well, that's just poor design, imo. You would be intentionally setting up classes to be unable to reach a design goal by playing the way they're supposed to play. :|
It got to the point where I tried boxing a second account healer on the lowest possible weakest greens for hours and hours and hours, and still never managed to max out defense. Eventually, I just accepted that it was a goal I couldn't reach, which was disappointing.
I would be very interested to know, specifically, if maxxed defense is going to be required for all "full depth" melee characters, in Pantheon, even those who don't typically tank?
vjek said:Can't skill-up on greys. Got it. Just like EQ1.
I don't think it's going to fly, Trasak. It was, for example, incredibly difficult/required artificial situations/almost impossible to max out Defense as a caster, or even as a Rogue or non-Warrior/Pally/SK, in EQ1. I mean, you could do it, but if your character is full offense (Rogue) and you never tank, and Max Defense is required for a "full depth" melee character, well, that's just poor design, imo. You would be intentionally setting up classes to be unable to reach a design goal by playing the way they're supposed to play. :|
It got to the point where I tried boxing a second account healer on the lowest possible weakest greens for hours and hours and hours, and still never managed to max out defense. Eventually, I just accepted that it was a goal I couldn't reach, which was disappointing.
I would be very interested to know, specifically, if maxxed defense is going to be required for all "full depth" melee characters, in Pantheon, even those who don't typically tank?
For purposes of skill ups the game would check off your skill level not your character level. The first 100 will be very easy for a character at 200 with another weapon skill. I would also remove the no exp for killing a low level mob. I have always thought that was silly. All you need to do is increase the exp gained per mob level exponentially and increase the exp required to level by even a sharper exponential increase and no one will intentionally level on low level mobs. You would go from getting 1000th of a level for killing something your level in a group to getting 100,000th of a level for killing a mob 20 levels below you solo.
Just because there was a limiter mechanic in EQ1 does not mean there will be the same or even equivalent one in Pantheon. Either way it was just an example model of how it could work without any class balancing done. The casting tree would need its own as well that made it enjoyable.