oneADseven said:Besides actual progression, I think it's important to have some sort of "mini-game" that has high replay value. This can be controlled PVP (Arena), a feature like diplomacy from Vanguard, a Coliseum (PVE Ladder), player controlled towns/villages, etc. I like to reflect back on my SNES RPG days and think about what captivated me the most. Township from Breath of Fire 2. The 100 Floor Dungeon from Lufia 2. The Coliseum from FFVI, the Dragon Eggs from FFVI, the water soccer game from FFX, the card game from FFVIII, the carnival from Chrono Trigger, Fishing/Hunting from Breath of Fire 2, The Golden Saucer from FFVII, so on and so forth. Township and the 100 Floor Dungeon are two things that I would absolutely love to see in an MMO. It's my understanding that FFXIV tried to recreate the 100 Floor Dungeon from Lufia 2 with Palace of the Dead. I never played it but it's my understanding that they did things a little bit differently. The type of replay value that could be had in a dungeon like that is absolutely insane and the best part is that your most hardcore players can play it to their hearts content without growing in power that would have an impact on the rest of the world. A dungeon like that would take the cake.
I spent countless hours/days playing the hell out of Blitzball in FFX and the card games in FF8/9. Side/mini games with high replay value would be good, FFXIV tried to do an interesting thing with their Palace of the Dead but it fell flat for the most part as far as being engaging and varied as every run felt almost exactly the same.
Tralyan said:oneADseven said:The 100 Floor Dungeon from Lufia 2.
Spent so, so, so many hours on this damn dungeon.
It was my favorite dungeon of all time in any game. How cool would it be to see a dungeon like that in an MMO? The replay value is about as high as you can possibly achieve. The blue boxes allowed you to earn progress in the dungeon without affecting your out of dungeon power scaling. The green (iris) boxes were also very meaningful and gave a really nice side objective to work toward. I shared the idea awhile back in this thread: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4986/ideas
As someone mentioned, FFXIV created a zone called Palace of the Dead which operated in similar fashion. I looked it up on Youtube and their main website and there were some fundamental differences with how it was implemented compared to what we saw in Lufia 2. I wasn't really a fan of the changes they made but who knows, it's possible they came up with the idea on their own rather than having it inspired from Lufia 2. IMO, I would love to see a dungeon that replicates that experience as close as possible in an MMO. The main sticky point, for me, is the idea that it would allow players to sink as much time into it as they desire without having adverse effects on the world outside of the dungeon. You could also add onto the dungeon with each expansion. Some people have made the argument that it would be too attractive to the point where maybe it warrants being it's own game because of the potential that it would draw players away from the rest of the world and content. I can't say that I agree. To me, it would be the epitome of "horizonal progression" -- if someone does manage to conquer the dungeon, then maybe they unleash a boss into the world of Terminus or obtain a powerful artifact. Nothing game-breaking, but definitely something that would make sense from a risk vs reward perspective.
Iksar said:oneADseven said:Besides actual progression, I think it's important to have some sort of "mini-game" that has high replay value. This can be controlled PVP (Arena), a feature like diplomacy from Vanguard, a Coliseum (PVE Ladder), player controlled towns/villages, etc. I like to reflect back on my SNES RPG days and think about what captivated me the most. Township from Breath of Fire 2. The 100 Floor Dungeon from Lufia 2. The Coliseum from FFVI, the Dragon Eggs from FFVI, the water soccer game from FFX, the card game from FFVIII, the carnival from Chrono Trigger, Fishing/Hunting from Breath of Fire 2, The Golden Saucer from FFVII, so on and so forth. Township and the 100 Floor Dungeon are two things that I would absolutely love to see in an MMO. It's my understanding that FFXIV tried to recreate the 100 Floor Dungeon from Lufia 2 with Palace of the Dead. I never played it but it's my understanding that they did things a little bit differently. The type of replay value that could be had in a dungeon like that is absolutely insane and the best part is that your most hardcore players can play it to their hearts content without growing in power that would have an impact on the rest of the world. A dungeon like that would take the cake.
I spent countless hours/days playing the hell out of Blitzball in FFX and the card games in FF8/9. Side/mini games with high replay value would be good, FFXIV tried to do an interesting thing with their Palace of the Dead but it fell flat for the most part as far as being engaging and varied as every run felt almost exactly the same.
I touch on the card game from FFVIII near the end of the post I linked. I would love to see something like that in Terminus. I'm not sure if it makes sense for a game like this but it would definitely offer a fun mini-game that players could engage in during periods of downtime. It also opens up the potential for a nice side-objective when it comes to collecting the cards and also adds value to a "living breathing world" where players would have another way to interact with NPC's. My thought was to basically take any concept art for NPC's and then utilize that asset for a card graphic. The game wasn't really that complicated ... (Think it was called Triple Triad) -- it's one of those areas where I feel like the time and effort that would go into building it could potentially be justified. Recycle existing assets and then have a math dev assign values to cards. This is one of those things that I know I would spend a great deal of time working on where progress would feel meaningful yet it wouldn't really have any impact on power scaling for our characters.
I don’t believe there is a single reason why people get burned out, so there isn’t a single solution to fix it.
I do believe one of the main reasons people get burned out is that developers fall into a repeatable pattern of expansion for the game development. Every expansion is just more of the same type of content as the last one, gear that is all basically the same +20% more stats, same type of raids just slightly more levels, etc. I’m sure this is the easiest and cheapest way to expand content, it’s the most boring for players.
Don’t get me wrong, I do not believe in change for the sake of change, if something is working stick with it. I think more creativity with how the expansion is designed will help a lot.
I guess I'll just write up a list...
Big worlds that thin the population of older zones. New zones that have no special mechanics that can take the place of an already existing zone that should just become bigger and more varied. "Mechanics" and "Rewards from thin air". "Content" is seperated by miles of world that no one has a reason to be on except to keep leveling. The "I want everything" mentallity that MMOs now encourage. Emotional trauma of sitting for long hours doing nothing and wasting away due to the game not encouraging people to rest or do something else. The moment when zones lose population. Crafting that helps no one. The inability to help others. Items have no special abliities. Max level literally ends the fun. When progression starts to trump fun. When ones actions are noticably pointless to the world. Feeling lonely. The world has already been explored. There is very little to explore in the world due to the lack of depth. No systems in place that make the game fun for fun's sake. Groups full of boring people that just want to do that same content for the sake of levels. The feeling that everyone should be max level and forget everything else. The belief one gets that other players are just elitists. Levels that introduce no new skills to the player that are still a pain to finally get (not everyone reaches max level before leaving). Classes that dissapoint players after a long amount of time playing them. Virtual materialism and a lack of imagination. Nothing random happens in the world...no GM events that people feel compelled to do.
When all one has done is announce their level, class, and that they are LFG for six hours...if that starts happening then there is no hope for keeping that player. Grouping is more important than raiding as its easier to do and encourages people to meet others. If groups don't feel encouraged to start at level 1, who's to say that it'll be any better later on? If groups start feeling draining then the player is to be blamed. Stop playing and go outside...encourage players to play smaller sessions.
There is another side to this question. It's not strictly, "What should the Pantheon devs do so that I won't burn out playing yet another MMORPG?"
How about, "What am I going to do differently this time to keep from burning out"?
Maybe that starts with "How many hours am I going to let myself play each week"?
"What kind of guild am I going to join?"
"How competitive am I going to be?"
If I buy a new 800-page book and burn through it in a weekend, I don't blame the author or expect them to instantly produce another book which will take me 3 days to read. It's a fact that it takes much longer to create content than to consume it. I can watch a move in 2 hours which may have taken two years to produce. Somehow we have this expectation that it should be different for games. If you're going to consume your entertainment through a firehose, it's going to be an intense and very brief experience.
We have to accept some responsibility as players for our choices.
So to answer the question directly, I think VR needs to provide us with lots of secondary or tertiary activities: player housing, diplomacy, advanced crafting, alternative mercantile systems (player driven bazaars, trade caravans...), collecting activities, trivial in-game quests that are purely for fun (like LOTRO's chicken quests), advanced tools for role playing, player generated music (again similar to LOTRO)...
There are a lot of options to keep the average person busy for a long time in Terminus without breaking immersion.
For the die hard gamer living in his Mom's basement, hooked up to Pepsi intravenously with stacks of pizza boxes and adult diapers... well there's nothing that will help those folks.
oneADseven said:Tralyan said:oneADseven said:The 100 Floor Dungeon from Lufia 2.
Spent so, so, so many hours on this damn dungeon.
It was my favorite dungeon of all time in any game. How cool would it be to see a dungeon like that in an MMO? The replay value is about as high as you can possibly achieve. The blue boxes allowed you to earn progress in the dungeon without affecting your out of dungeon power scaling. The green (iris) boxes were also very meaningful and gave a really nice side objective to work toward. I shared the idea awhile back in this thread: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4986/ideas
As someone mentioned, FFXIV created a zone called Palace of the Dead which operated in similar fashion. I looked it up on Youtube and their main website and there were some fundamental differences with how it was implemented compared to what we saw in Lufia 2. I wasn't really a fan of the changes they made but who knows, it's possible they came up with the idea on their own rather than having it inspired from Lufia 2. IMO, I would love to see a dungeon that replicates that experience as close as possible in an MMO. The main sticky point, for me, is the idea that it would allow players to sink as much time into it as they desire without having adverse effects on the world outside of the dungeon. You could also add onto the dungeon with each expansion. Some people have made the argument that it would be too attractive to the point where maybe it warrants being it's own game because of the potential that it would draw players away from the rest of the world and content. I can't say that I agree. To me, it would be the epitome of "horizonal progression" -- if someone does manage to conquer the dungeon, then maybe they unleash a boss into the world of Terminus or obtain a powerful artifact. Nothing game-breaking, but definitely something that would make sense from a risk vs reward perspective.
I think this is a fantastic idea.
As far as it being too attractive, I don't see how that would happen as long as the potential rewards from it don't outmatch those from conventional group dungeons and raids.
In fact, this kind of dungeon is the ONLY dungeon I'd be comfortable having as a solo instanced dungeon. Maybe even one with leaderboards attached (determined by how far someone gets into it). Make it a chaotic randomly generated dungeon layout with randomly generated mobs in each lvl, much like Lufia did.
Really getting behind this. Devs, take note.
Tralyan said:oneADseven said:The 100 Floor Dungeon from Lufia 2.
Spent so, so, so many hours on this damn dungeon.
/Agreed with this -- all the while sweating to get the item "Providence" and after hitting floor 22 or so thinking I had missed it... Oh.. and those ridiculous Aoeing dragons in the high 90s. It was an awesome concept to be able to keep your blue chest gear from the dungeon and being able to only bring that back into the ancient dungeon. Trying to collect all the Iris gear? (might have remembered the name wrong) was icing on the cake. I do remember being extremely disappointed though when collecting it all didn't do anything haha.
Anyway, back on topic though, I think you prevent burnout by keeping old content relevant - I've shared some ideas in a few older threads, both champion level:
http://pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2389/please-plan-ahead-for-progression-servers
http://pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4532/vanguard-post-postmortems-too-big-to-socialize/view/page/1
Tralyan said:oneADseven said:Tralyan said:oneADseven said:The 100 Floor Dungeon from Lufia 2.
Spent so, so, so many hours on this damn dungeon.
It was my favorite dungeon of all time in any game. How cool would it be to see a dungeon like that in an MMO? The replay value is about as high as you can possibly achieve. The blue boxes allowed you to earn progress in the dungeon without affecting your out of dungeon power scaling. The green (iris) boxes were also very meaningful and gave a really nice side objective to work toward. I shared the idea awhile back in this thread: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4986/ideas
As someone mentioned, FFXIV created a zone called Palace of the Dead which operated in similar fashion. I looked it up on Youtube and their main website and there were some fundamental differences with how it was implemented compared to what we saw in Lufia 2. I wasn't really a fan of the changes they made but who knows, it's possible they came up with the idea on their own rather than having it inspired from Lufia 2. IMO, I would love to see a dungeon that replicates that experience as close as possible in an MMO. The main sticky point, for me, is the idea that it would allow players to sink as much time into it as they desire without having adverse effects on the world outside of the dungeon. You could also add onto the dungeon with each expansion. Some people have made the argument that it would be too attractive to the point where maybe it warrants being it's own game because of the potential that it would draw players away from the rest of the world and content. I can't say that I agree. To me, it would be the epitome of "horizonal progression" -- if someone does manage to conquer the dungeon, then maybe they unleash a boss into the world of Terminus or obtain a powerful artifact. Nothing game-breaking, but definitely something that would make sense from a risk vs reward perspective.
I think this is a fantastic idea.
As far as it being too attractive, I don't see how that would happen as long as the potential rewards from it don't outmatch those from conventional group dungeons and raids.
In fact, this kind of dungeon is the ONLY dungeon I'd be comfortable having as a solo instanced dungeon. Maybe even one with leaderboards attached (determined by how far someone gets into it). Make it a chaotic randomly generated dungeon layout with randomly generated mobs in each lvl, much like Lufia did.
Really getting behind this. Devs, take note.
I appreciate it man! I think the idea has a much higher likelihood of resonating with people who actually played through the dungeon in Lufia 2. I made an effort to convey how the idea could translate to an MMO without violating the game tenets. I do agree that as far as instanced content is concerned, a dungeon like this could serve as an exception to the rule. It's possible that it could still be implemented without the need for instancing but at the end of the day I feel there is more risk in that than going with the original plan and recreating the Lufia-inspired dungeon as closely as possible. This concept was inspired by one of the most memorable (and highest replay value) RPG dungeons ever created and if there is anybody else out there who played Lufia 2, I would love to hear your thoughts.
The first tenant is "An awareness that content is king" so I Have no doubt that VR are working on multiple things to do to keep us entertained. Things like a card game or a 100 level solo dungeon are a great idea and will give people extra things to do. I invested loads of time into the side games in the Final Fantasy series, Blitzball, Triple Triad, Chocobo racing and the treasure hunt were particually good fun. Also achievements in WoW... while there were too many, ones that involved things like reading specfic lore books found round the world were good fun.
Ultimately, burnout will happen because we are all going to invest so many hours into the game, it natural to take a break from MMO's and come back after a couple of weeks / months. I suppose we just have to hope that there will be regular content updates so we we come back from taking time off there are new things to reignite us...
oneADseven said:I appreciate it man! I think the idea has a much higher likelihood of resonating with people who actually played through the dungeon in Lufia 2. I made an effort to convey how the idea could translate to an MMO without violating the game tenets. I do agree that as far as instanced content is concerned, a dungeon like this could serve as an exception to the rule. It's possible that it could still be implemented without the need for instancing but at the end of the day I feel there is more risk in that than going with the original plan and recreating the Lufia-inspired dungeon as closely as possible. This concept was inspired by one of the most memorable (and highest replay value) RPG dungeons ever created and if there is anybody else out there who played Lufia 2, I would love to hear your thoughts.
I played Lufia 2 several times, both on the SNES and then on emulators much later. And, I'd agree that the Ancient Cave was one of my favorite dungeons of all time; however, I don't see it translating to a Pantheon style MMORPG. You would have to drastically change the style of gameplay within the instance or the majority of classes wouldn't be able to participate. It isn't like Lufia where you already have the pre-made party and the capsule (healing monster). You basically would have to allow your player with a pre-made party of mercenaries, and, I'll pass on that as I'd much rather not pull people alway from the main game. And, this isn't taking into account one of the main benefits to that dungeon was the loot that you could get which trivialized most in-game loot (which I wouldn't want to see in an MMORPG either).
And, there would be much too many design obstacles to overcome if you didn't instance it.
Basically, one of my favorite all-time single player ideas, I just don't see it translating over to an MMORPG unless the Dungeon was the MMORPG.
@Raidan -- Some interesting points, I hope you don't mind if I try and respond to them. I suppose when I said that it should be recreated as closely as possible, it was a given that certain things were bound to change. I'm not so sure that these changes would need to be drastic. When I think about how this dungeon could translate to an MMO, there are some very important considerations. I also played it on the SNES, and then again multiple times on emulators, specifically for this dungeon. I think that leads credence to your suggestion that it would take people away from "the main game" but I also think it's worth considering that maybe that aspect of the game was a little more magical than the rest of the game and that's why a lot of people went back to play it on the emulator. That isn't to say that the rest of the game wasn't awesome, too. The monster capsule was another cool part of the game, as were the consistent puzzles found in every one of the standard dungeons. I really don't think a dungeon like this is enough to build an entire MMO around -- the major appeal, to me at least, is the idea that it would be nothing more than a single stepping stone in the otherwise very grand plan.
When it comes down to it, you could only invest so many hours into the game (Lufia 2) as a whole. That isn't the case in an MMO where I think it's a good thing to have no shortage on things that players can do. In essence, I don't see it as a bad thing that it could draw people away from the "main game" because it would ultimately be a part of that same game, and could be a way to incorporate a uniquely styled form of horizontal progression that I personally have never seen in an MMO. I don't see why you think that you would be forced to include mercenaries into the equation. When it comes to oldschool SNES RPG's, one of the main drawbacks I remember from playing was the idea that I had to control my entire group on my own rather than having another real player be able to join in and share the load. Secret of Mana stood out compared to a lot of others because it allowed 2 real players to play cooperatively at the same time. FFVI accomplished the same thing, although to a much smaller degree, by allowing a second real player to take control of a party member during combat sequences. Secret of Evermore let a second player take control of the dog. This ability to play cooperatively with another player was highly attractive to me because it allowed my brother and I to play together at the same time.
I think there is some merit in the suggestion that certain classes might not be able to participate, but I wouldn't be so sure that things have to be that way. From what I can remember, I purposely built the various characters to satisfy certain roles. One character would be a magic user, one would be a healer, one would be a bit more tanky, and one was built for melee DPS. When it came to the monster capsule, you also had a variety of archetypes you could choose from. I think the "healer version" was a common choice because at the end of the day it would help support the trinity aspect of the group and the healer role seemed to be the most difficult to manually build around. In Pantheon, we'll actually see groups of 6 players, so while I think the integrity of the trinity would still be very important, there are additional slots available to make room for any class. Additionally, this could be a dungeon that bends the rules a little bit. Maybe you could bring an 8 player group inside? Maybe it could be designed as a raid dungeon instead of a group dungeon?
Finally, you also make a good point about the loot. You mention how the loot trivialized most other loot in the game, and while that is partially true, in a sense, it's important to remember that the loot acquired in the dungeon remained exclusive or soulbound (or in this case, dungeon bound) to that very specific dungeon. It's impossible for the loot to trivialize outside loot because that which is gathered inside is only relevant while you're actually inside in the first place. If you recall, your outside loot was irrelevant while inside of the dungeon. I don't see a correlation between the two. One argument I suppose could be made is the idea that the progression inside of the dungeon might feel more rewarding than progression outside of it due to the amazing quality of certain items found inside. Items like "Gloom Jewel" for example were extremely powerful and actually played a key role in being able to progress further into the dungeon. Some of these items also had unique effects that scaled in power at an incredibly high rate, and this is something I would stray away from implementing if this concept were to be modified for an MMO.
If you look at the link I shared from above, I offered a few suggestions on how the loot should be modeled in an MMO. This is an area where I feel things would need to change a bit, and probably for the same reason you are thinking of. There shouldn't be "Gloom Jewel" type items. In the example I shared, there were 4 tiers of loot. T1 would be the equivilent of the red chests inside of the dungeon which were basically temporary loot that would only last for the duration of a single run. T2-T3 were basically the blue chests, but with an addendum -- T2 would serve as your first tier of loot that would be permanent, sort of like an entry level progession mechanism. It would be possible to acquire T1 loot that was actually more powerful on any given run, but the idea of permanence with the T2 loot is an important aspect of progression for the dungeon. T3 was basically a step-up from T2 in the sense that it would be designed as a sort of BiS, but considering the nature of Pantheon, it could still be a "situational" BiS.
Rather than acquiring items like "Gloom Jewel" that would offer a massive amount of progression as soon as you loot it, the itemization would be tiered and modified to incorporate a situational ideology. Due to the "random" nature of the dungeon, acquiring an item like a T3 plate helmet with fire resistance would have plenty of situational value, but would never take the cake because you're just as likely to run into NPC's that blast you with the other elements as you are the ones that will blast you with fire. If anything, the progression model could be tailored to provide more longevity and more replay value. The itemization would obviously be very important to the success of the dungeon but one universal rule that must always be respected is that the loot inside of the dungeon wouldn't have an impact on the world outside.
In the example I provided, there were only two ways to acquire an outside-tangible benefit -- the first was acquiring the full set of T4 loot (Also known as the 20 Iris Chests in Lufia 2) -- but this reward would likely be more about prestige than power. The second was the idea of actually beating the final boss and there are plenty of things you could do with this. Personally I think it would be awesome if beating the final boss actually unleashed an even deadlier boss into the world of Terminus. This would be a great way to incorporate a "server event" that could actually affect a degree of change into the world. As far as the reward for beating the final boss in the dungeon itself is concerned, it would probably be a single item, or maybe a spell. Maybe ... just maybe, there is a wise sage at the bottom of the dungeon that could offer a unique spell to each different class. That kind of sage is already rumored to exist in the world of Terminus and the bottom of this dungeon sounds like a really cool place to put one.
I think a big key factor for me would be replayability. In all the games I have spent the most time in I have had multiple characters and brought them up. I found it fun to play in someone elses shoes for awhile and see how the game felt to them. I liked twinking in Everquest honestly. It allowed me as a player to use my resources I got from my other characters to bring up a character through the lower grind levels a little faster and a little easier than it first was. Everquest 1 for example was much easier to start and level a character with a fungi tunic. It made me more likely to start up a character and see if I liked it if I didn't have to spend forever leveling them up only to find out I didn't like them in end.
I also think farming loot played a big part in things as well. You had specific items that were far and away better than the norm. And people would spend countless hours hunting those items down and felt so rewarded when they finally got them. Most MMO's these days have a very generic loot table and loot (below raid level) really isn't as important as it once was. I remember camping the Shining Metallic Robes for weeks. I was so happy when I finally got one. And the look was so unique. You knew what people had for gear just by looking at them.
There are probably almost as many answers to this as there are players , it's a big one. Lot's of great responses so far that fit for me like horizontal growth and replayability.
My big enemy is absolute predictability.
When I get to the log in screen, find myself weighing things up and can pretty accurately run through all the potentialities of that session it's usually a sign that things are stagnating. This relates to location, activities, loot and overall experience. These are the dungeons in my range, this is the loot I can get, these are the rooms I will sit in. In my recent return to classic EQ servers, I'd log in excited to explore/re-explore the world, hopeful to adventure through one of the many dungeons, to move thrugh a fantastic world on an adventure...but, the reality is we'll just sit in one spot mechanically pulling to one location. I had to resort to trying to solo my way through dungeons just to see them as that playstyle isn't as efficient in terms of advancement in that setting.
We know what spawns where, what drops what, which camps are taken and I'm left feeling like I'm gearing up, leveling up and doing all of this in preperation for that big adventure to come - but there isn't one, just a different room to sit in and pull to for slightly higher level loot. If that could be addressed while still providing opportunity for socializing I'd be quite happy. Camping can be enjoyable, I'm sure it will exist, but there must be room to expand on that situation as an equally rewarding alternative (camping a dungeon that rewards pushing further rather than just camping a room or two, providing incentive to move through the world while still remaining in a general area that can provide the update/drop you're after).
This could be seen as an oversimplification, but it's a pretty accurate summation of what the experience can become for me. A large step towards correcting that would be introducing enough variables and mechanics to instigate unexpected situations on occasion. It doesn't mean it has to be 100% unpredictable chaos every day, just enough potential for variation to retain player curiousity.
@oneADseven
Again, I love the dungeon, I just don't think it translates appropriately to what Pantheon brings to the table. I would see this more in a Diablo-style single player MMORPG.
As far as the Lufia 2 rebuttal goes - I don't mind at all, I just think you're recalling some aspects incorrectly.
1. You'd have to include mercenaries in the equation because it wouldn't be realistic timewise in an MMO to be able to have a player group remain intact for the 100 floors. I remember in Lufia 2 (non-emulator) I had to leave my game on just because it took so long. In MMO terms I would imagine each floor would have several adjoining rooms at least and very few with just one room/staircase down. You'd also have to have it instanced or it would eliminate the difficulty of the dungeon if other groups were consistently clearing the floor you were on, not to mention, all the loot would be gone.
2. And, you're remembering incorrectly about the chests. One of the best things about the loot in that dungeon is that you "could" take the gear obtained from blue chests in the real game outside the dungeon. It was just that you couldn't bring any of your gear obtained otherwise in-game in the dungeon. And, the only gear allowed back into the dungeon on second, third, attempt etc. were through the blue chests.
Here's a link to the Ancient Cave Guide as reference: Lufia 2: Ancient Cave
Anyway, nice to see another appreciate the game as much as I did :)
Annnnd, to bring this discussion somewhat back this on topic...I would suggest to increase longetivity in an MMORPG like Pantheon is to introduce ideas to keep players together versus continously dividing them on future expansions. Don't always expand outward, but inward as well. Expand old content versus always creating new zones or continents. Also, continously monitor server populations and make sure as world size increases X amount, that as long as the server load can handle it, there's X amount of population increase as well.
madmike556mm said:It seems to be a common thing in mmo's that the more expansions that are released, the further the game deviates from it's original vision.
This is another situation that has caused me to drift away from games in the past.
I'll find myself fully invested in the base release, very much looking forward to it being expanded upon, fortified with more depth and really built upon but instead some expansions end up feeling like they're an unrelated experience built with the same engine, almost fully devaluing and negating the initial release. If I'm playing your game as it launched, it's a safe bet I'd like to see more of that world. I'm not looking for something totally alien and seperate when it comes time to expand upon that release.
The other one that somewhat irks me is when some new mechanic is introduced that replaces current gameplay. WoW went vehicle heavy for awhile for example...ok, sure, mix those in, but in a game where it takes longer to run to the pumpkin farm than it does to combat any monsters infesting it, work in *some* opportunity for me to actually play my character rather than have him/her replaced for large segments of time with some universal default hotbar of generic vehicle abilities that everyone else is using. Lotro did similar with it's large scale battles in which you control multiple units, I'll always have a soft spot for that game, but I'd much prefer that development time was spent elsewhere. GW2 is somewhat guilty as well, Heart of Thornes with its vertical nature came off as more of an annoying gimmick than what I was hoping for.
Development teams change over time and new flavors may get introduced into the mix, but keeping it cohesive is pretty critical.
I know we're discussing burn out and it may not seem to relate, but it does for me in that I've spent far too long holding out hope as some of my favorite games have shifted further and further from the game I had originally invested in and become fond of until eventually that torch just sputters out.
I don't belive the key to be in any Marvelous Dungon, or Spectacular Content. For the 15% that's going to be the hard core, rush to "End Game" well yeah maybe them. But that's not the silent majority (the 85%) that's going to keep the doors open. As we all know they're going to hit max and quit, they will come back when an expansion comes out that extends Max.
Community is going to keep burn out away for the masses. For the 85% they log in to this alternate life to see the friends they made, to hang out to joke and chat. They start an alt. and level again they hang out in guild halls, they get on at 4pm after work every day not because it's a RAID DAY (who gives a crap) but because their FRIENDS are logging in at 4pm as they have for the last years.
Community will "prevent burnout and retain players long term" and the Team already has a plan for it.
Edit: I will concede that they will need content and dungeons. I did not want to imply the game would Make it without the basics... my point is they are not the Key!
Shucklighter said:I'm not sure how much of this can be influenced by game design, really. I think most people's best fantasy MMO memories are of the game that got them hooked on fantasy MMOs. Unfortunately, you just can't go back to that time. I think it's influenced as much by what a game means to you at the point of your life while you're playing it, and also by the specific people you are playing the game with, as it is by game design. You can never enter a fantasy MMO world for the first time again. The people you played with then may or may not still be around, but if they are still around they are at different points in their lives as well. I think there are a lot less first-time gamers today then there were 20 years ago, so it makes sense to me that the average subscription lengths are down. The internet will never again feel as magical as it did 20 years ago, either. It's also possible for the game you played the longest to not be your favorite. I only played EverQuest for about three years (not counting P1999 and TLPs), but it was my first love. I played WoW for about eight years (yuck) mostly because nothing else appealed to me during those years. No game will ever be able to compete with EverQuest for me. I just don't think you can get that magic back. It's like reading a great book (or series) or seeing a great movie. You just can't unread it or unsee it, or go back to the time before you read it or saw it.
I think that if our team holds true and PRF really is the social fantasy MMO for which we've all been waiting then that will help keep most of us from burning out quickly. I know that I'm more likely to keep playing a game if my closest friends are playing. As these friends burn out, I find there is less tying me to the game world and I'm more likely to give in to real life demands. Still, it's different for everyone. Some people burn out because there isn't enough content to keep them satisfied. Some people burn out because they feel there's too much content. Some people burn out for lack of change in the game world. Some people burn out because too much has changed. Some people burn out because they are tired of trying to get a particular piece of gear. Some people finally get that piece of gear only to realize that their will to play has died. I'm just not sure you can design features specifically to keep people from burning out. I'd say daily quests were probably created with this in mind, but I know a ton of people who stopped playing games because of them. Sorry for the rambling. I guess I don't really have a good answer. The crux of my reply is that I feel like people burn out for too many different reasons (many of them beyond the scope of the game designers) to really plan for this.
My big problem with all of this is when you play a game, any game, for literally years burnout is inevitable. Chess, one of the greatest games ever made has people burn out on it all the time. Same with Tetris. So why expect to retain players for years and years? People will burn out and quit, and when they get the itch again they come back. MMORPGs that are well designed have a strong social element and those bonds are often what keeps players in the game long after they got bored with it. So yes when such a player has all his/her friends quit they have no reason to stay in the game any longer. I'm not sure I would call this a problem though since without those social bonds the player would have quit even earlier!
Nostalgia and getting the magic back is the wrong way to look at things if you are an experienced gamer (most of us here are) because you're right: you won't get that exact same magic back. The main factor other than the social element is the gameplay itself...not the nostalgia sparkles! How long has it been now since an MMO actually had a significant RPG element? How long since there was a need to team up with other players to progress? What about having distinct class design or non-instanced content? The game design itself is what keeps us playing. How many Tetris spinoffs have there been? How many Mario and Sonic games how many Castlevanias? In the end it is the core design that carries a genre forward and my argument is that modern MMOs have lost key elements of that core design. Think of how Castlevania II was a stinker, thats how I see the MMORPG market these days we just need Castlevania III to come out and get back to the essentials. After all what keeps players coming back to a game better than good gameplay? I don't think Pantheon needs to keep all players subscribed non-stop for 5+ years straight, but it does need to have the right stuff so people keep coming back to it!
Back to the nostalgia subject: I remember my first video game back in 1986, Super Mario Bros on the NES. I definately get nostalgia playing old NES games, but some of them like Legend of Zelda are flat out awesome games. That doesn't mean a better game didn't come out later. Legend of Zelda: Link to the Past was flat out better! New nostalgia was formed! Final Fantasy same thing, I started with FF 4 but it was FF 6 and FF 10 that really wowed me. Speaking of the first experience with the internet yes I remember that, I remember playing Warcraft 2 on Kali and it was incredible! But online gaming only got better from there as MMORPGs hit the scene. UO, EQ, and then countless more. Yes my best MMORPG memories are from EverQuest. But I have plenty of great memories of playing GuildWars, EvE, Vanguard, even WoW. Well that's my perspective take it or leave it.
Honestly, I've burnout on EQ multiple times, and then would get back into it for a year or 2. My concern is, when I burn out of this game, which will happen no matter how much fancy stuff you try to put in it, will I see a different game when I come back? That's what concerns me. If I come back to the game and all of my favorite stuff is gone, like maybe the population of this one city is now desolate, then I will get disenchanted by the game quickly. Why do you think there is a P99 and Vanilla WoW servers still around with a good number of people? It's because they don't mind not having new things to do. They do mind ,however, if the world changes to an unrecognizable state. A lot of EQ people I knew usually said the same thing, which was along the line of "If only EQ stopped at Velious." The game was big enough and had enough to do for years.
Also, I am not advocating for there being a stopping point, but hopefully they realize that expanding the game will thin the population and kill zones. There is a threshold to any game that if you go past it, you will kill alot of your previous content. If they can make a game that would keep me busy for a few years, then it's successful imo. If they make a vibrant world that has alot to do without expanding the zones and content, then it will stay very fun for awhile, like WoW classic with its increment raid boss releases.
So, for me, its not whether I will get burnt out or not, because I will. The question is will I want to come back and experience the game again? I can come back to Pantheon with a whole new character and have fun again. I've gone back to EQ a few times with new characters and adventures and had a blast, but once it turn different with the Plane of Knowlege, and even The Nexus, I got a little depressed about the game. I stayed until Omen of War, but I wasn't having fun like I use to.
Nephele said:So, in about 4-6 weeks, after I've tied up some loose ends with my guild, I'm going to be quitting the game that I'm playing currently.
It's not for any bad reasons. They just had a big patch, and their quality bar is as high as it's ever been. Sure, there are things that I would like better if they were different, but overall there's nothing I really don't like about the game. There's more content coming as fast as they can push it out, and they're pretty good about doing an expansion every 12-18 months - and honestly, they do a better job than most other current MMOs out there in terms of the amount and quality of the content they add to the game regularly.
It's not really for RL reasons. Yes, I need to get out of the house more, but it's not like I don't have the time or the money to keep playing.
I have been subscribed to this other game for 3 and a half years. I've logged more than 10,000 hours between the two characters I play the most. I have done just about every piece of adventuring content available, with the exception of some of the stuff that's just hard for the sake of being hard and doesn't really have any other reason to exist. I've done all the non-adventuring things too, the crafting, the gathering, even the PvP. I have a great guild, with a great reputation that does all kinds of fun things on a regular basis.
So, why am I leaving? Because I'm burned out. Doing the latest gear grind feels more like a chore than an adventure. Exploring the most recent story or dungeon addition is only fun for a day or two, then it's just repetition again. The magic is simply gone for me.
You might be reading this and thinking "geez, Neph, what are you complaining about? Sounds like you've had an awesome experience". And that's absolutely true. I'm not saying all this to complain, but rather to illustrate what I believe is a design problem that many modern games have. I remember 10 years ago or so, reading that the average MMO subscription length was 18 months. I'm pretty sure it's even lower now, across the various games out there.
When I played EQ, I played for 5 years straight, and only left (for EQ2) because I felt like the game had gotten too raid-centric. I played EQ2 for 5 years as well, and my average run in most other MMOs I've played has been 2-3 years. So I am by no means someone who burns out quickly. I would love for Pantheon to be another 5+ year game for me, and for everyone else too.
It's an established fact that no development team can produce new content as fast as players will consume it. So with that in mind - what else should Pantheon do in its design to help prevent burnout and retain players? Would love to hear everyone's thoughts on this subject :)
I think the best way to do this is for the devs to have a few principles in mind at all times.
1) If it takes a long time, it should last a long time. That is, if I spend 3 months working on something, it shouldn't be useless as soon as the next expansion / content release comes along.
2) If it takes a long time, it should be worth taking a long time. Going to use WoW here as an example. Mounts were cool in that game when having ONE was special because it took a whiile to get it. Now everyone has 150+ mounts. I sure don't want to spend 2 months grinding out mount 151.
3) Players should ALWAYS be able to work toward advancing their avatar. Some people loved the way AA played out in EQ, and some people hated it. But having it meant that even if you were in a dungeon group where there were absolutely no drops for you... you were still working on improving your avatar.
I think grinds feel more "grindy" when you feel like you have to do them for no other reason than to do them - or that they are put in the game for no other reason than to make you spend time doing them. The reason why I personally loved keying as a means of content gating in EQ (and yes I know some didn't like it at all) was that I always felt like the reward (the key) was worth getting and that the value lasted a long time. The reason I hate dailies in modern MMO's is because the reward never feels like it has any value past the current expansion.
And then there are some things that are just cool to have. For example, speaking dragon was a doorway to content in EQ... but it was also cool simply being a semi-rare player that was able to do it.