So, in about 4-6 weeks, after I've tied up some loose ends with my guild, I'm going to be quitting the game that I'm playing currently.
It's not for any bad reasons. They just had a big patch, and their quality bar is as high as it's ever been. Sure, there are things that I would like better if they were different, but overall there's nothing I really don't like about the game. There's more content coming as fast as they can push it out, and they're pretty good about doing an expansion every 12-18 months - and honestly, they do a better job than most other current MMOs out there in terms of the amount and quality of the content they add to the game regularly.
It's not really for RL reasons. Yes, I need to get out of the house more, but it's not like I don't have the time or the money to keep playing.
I have been subscribed to this other game for 3 and a half years. I've logged more than 10,000 hours between the two characters I play the most. I have done just about every piece of adventuring content available, with the exception of some of the stuff that's just hard for the sake of being hard and doesn't really have any other reason to exist. I've done all the non-adventuring things too, the crafting, the gathering, even the PvP. I have a great guild, with a great reputation that does all kinds of fun things on a regular basis.
So, why am I leaving? Because I'm burned out. Doing the latest gear grind feels more like a chore than an adventure. Exploring the most recent story or dungeon addition is only fun for a day or two, then it's just repetition again. The magic is simply gone for me.
You might be reading this and thinking "geez, Neph, what are you complaining about? Sounds like you've had an awesome experience". And that's absolutely true. I'm not saying all this to complain, but rather to illustrate what I believe is a design problem that many modern games have. I remember 10 years ago or so, reading that the average MMO subscription length was 18 months. I'm pretty sure it's even lower now, across the various games out there.
When I played EQ, I played for 5 years straight, and only left (for EQ2) because I felt like the game had gotten too raid-centric. I played EQ2 for 5 years as well, and my average run in most other MMOs I've played has been 2-3 years. So I am by no means someone who burns out quickly. I would love for Pantheon to be another 5+ year game for me, and for everyone else too.
It's an established fact that no development team can produce new content as fast as players will consume it. So with that in mind - what else should Pantheon do in its design to help prevent burnout and retain players? Would love to hear everyone's thoughts on this subject :)
I'm not sure how much of this can be influenced by game design, really. I think most people's best fantasy MMO memories are of the game that got them hooked on fantasy MMOs. Unfortunately, you just can't go back to that time. I think it's influenced as much by what a game means to you at the point of your life while you're playing it, and also by the specific people you are playing the game with, as it is by game design. You can never enter a fantasy MMO world for the first time again. The people you played with then may or may not still be around, but if they are still around they are at different points in their lives as well. I think there are a lot less first-time gamers today then there were 20 years ago, so it makes sense to me that the average subscription lengths are down. The internet will never again feel as magical as it did 20 years ago, either. It's also possible for the game you played the longest to not be your favorite. I only played EverQuest for about three years (not counting P1999 and TLPs), but it was my first love. I played WoW for about eight years (yuck) mostly because nothing else appealed to me during those years. No game will ever be able to compete with EverQuest for me. I just don't think you can get that magic back. It's like reading a great book (or series) or seeing a great movie. You just can't unread it or unsee it, or go back to the time before you read it or saw it.
I think that if our team holds true and PRF really is the social fantasy MMO for which we've all been waiting then that will help keep most of us from burning out quickly. I know that I'm more likely to keep playing a game if my closest friends are playing. As these friends burn out, I find there is less tying me to the game world and I'm more likely to give in to real life demands. Still, it's different for everyone. Some people burn out because there isn't enough content to keep them satisfied. Some people burn out because they feel there's too much content. Some people burn out for lack of change in the game world. Some people burn out because too much has changed. Some people burn out because they are tired of trying to get a particular piece of gear. Some people finally get that piece of gear only to realize that their will to play has died. I'm just not sure you can design features specifically to keep people from burning out. I'd say daily quests were probably created with this in mind, but I know a ton of people who stopped playing games because of them. Sorry for the rambling. I guess I don't really have a good answer. The crux of my reply is that I feel like people burn out for too many different reasons (many of them beyond the scope of the game designers) to really plan for this.
Burnout an be very subjective and how it relates to MMO. Most MMO's i have ever played come with progression and time syncs. You can not obtain anything without a group or guild. It is rather simple this way. Content can burn players out trying to reach max, or lacking there of experiencing the game first hand before players move on and skip content. Its rather dull when guilds do that, which can burn a person out in that aspect.
10k hours is a lot of hours, and this is due to the games you played are forcing you to spend 4 hrs a night in.
I dont think OP, you will ever not be burned out, unless you leave a guild situation, and just play the game as it stands. MMO's are not going to be an easy solution. All of them cater to some form of time syncs.
So ask yourself??? are you really prepared to jump into another MMO with the feeling of no burnout?? because it isnt going to happen with some form of progression/leveling/time sync.
Forgot to mention, many people i know just pace themselves for long term game play. I dont even know if ill be playing this game as grand as some do. I have other interests now.
Personally, I'm not at all worried about Pantheon being able to hold my attention.
That being said, think about the things that made EQ so great. People weren't able to race through content. Even powerleveling could only get you so far unless you had a serious PLing crew to carry you along. Even then it was probably much slower at higher levels than modern MMOs. It took a long time to get through the content, and the content was good and challenging and fun and dangerous and rewarding. Gear was hard to acquire and nothing was handed to you, thus making buying the gear you want difficult because it was expensive and desired and rare, necessitating trading and farming money and all that to get the really rare stuff. These days it's ALL about raiding... snooze fest. Raiding is fun, but in EQ you had so much other stuff to do outside of raiding. There were plenty of drops, dungeons, and camps throughout the world that kept people busy outside of raids, where stuff that was as good or better could drop, especially when you consider rare/desirable clickies or procs. For example, Seb and all the awesome stuff that dropped there. It was a big dungeon that was hard yet very rewarding.
Modern MMOs are essentially theme park rides. You typically have quest hubs that just guide you from place to place... You don't really have to farm much money; you just get it from leveling/questing, and same with gear. It's all just kind of given to you as you level up. Old content becomes worthless to you. Doing the content again on another character feels like a huge, horrible grind even with much faster leveling than you saw in games like EQ. In EQ, I enjoyed every minute on every alt... Even if I did the exact same content twice in a row, it was fun and challenging both times.
But I think all of the above is common knowledge to all of us at this point... To answer your question more directly, one thing to consider is that there is no mystery anymore. Every game has maps and add-ons and crap that tell you where to go, what to do, how to play, etc... Then there are guides to every profession and every class and such available online before the game even releases. Guides to every boss fight and dungeon... There's no real mystery, and everyone's essentially an "expert" before the game goes live. And there's not really any fix for most of this. The only thing that can be done is remove QOL stuff that most games use now (thus, going back to the old school mentality, which is one of the main things that drew me to Pantheon in the first place).
I don't think any game in the next 5-10 years will even come close to what Pantheon hopes to achieve, so it's likely going to be my home for a very, very long time. I've waited too long and played too many crap MMOs to keep waiting. Pantheon is the solution or I'm done with MMOs. :P
Just my 2c
In my opinion a strong community combined with tons of content is key to stop burnout.
Players need something besides just raids to look forward to. VR is mostly answering this by making a lot of content geared towards crafting/non-combat. But should there be more?
Vanguard SoH had a deck building game with in the MMO called "Diplomacy". Why couldn't there be something like Blizzard's Hearthstone built within the world of Pantheon. Players could challenge each other, join VR sponsored tournaments, or challenge NPC's. Buy, sell, and trade cards. Really the skies the limit when it comes to alternative content. I would love to bet my gold on two Dwarves in a MadMax battledome fight - "Two man enter, one man leave". Hell make it 10 Dwarves. Who wouldn't like the title "Master Blaster"? How about a monthly Pantheon "Ninja Warrior" contest complete with trap doors, spinning platforms, and lava pits.
Community and unique content in a living, breathing, ever evolving world. I think that's one way to do it.
For me it was always the way things changed when you got to high level that turned me off. If you weren't in a top-tier guild and doing enormous, arduous raids, there was nothing to do. Raiding for the next tier of access/armor/whatever was such a chore.
If Pantheon can keep things social without that being pressured; if they can provide more content that isn't just raid, raid, raid; if they can avoid the gear-upgrade-pressure trap; then there's hope.
I would also like to see continual content addition at all levels so it's attractive to start alts and use the progeny system.
From the FAQ:
Keeping players interested and playing a long time, whether in one session or spread out over days, involves creating compelling gameplay. Player rewards, levelling, earning new abilities, and acquiring more powerful items at a reasonable rate are some ways to make your game sticky. Add in that grouping with others will be encouraged and rewarded and that people will be making new friends in-game and you have a situation where your comrades need you to log in with them in order to advance. Most people who want to be part of a team, to be a team player, respond well to this pressure.
As for how ‘hardcore’ Pantheon will be, we’ve said it wouldn't be as grindy, and the type of grind we were referring to involves tedious repetition. But that doesn't mean Pantheon won't be difficult, or involved, or require time invested in order to advance -- in fact, virtually all MUDs and MMOs are built around time invested as the primary advancement mechanism. Pantheon will both challenge and entertain you.
1.11 Why is this MMO going to last more than six months and not turn into a P2W F2P game?
Pantheon is being designed on a proven foundation of MMO mechanics, gameplay, and systems design. It’s being built to support grouping, teamwork, community, and shared experiences. It’s also about having a clear idea of who we are making the game for and not sacrificing features that make MMOs sticky in an attempt to appeal to everyone.
It's also about priorities, keeping to a budget, and experience. The Visionary Realms team has members who were key architects of an MMO that has been running since 1999 and another that ran seven years. We are confident that if in the past, by harnessing teamwork and community, by creating environments conducive to building true friendships, we were able to entertain people for months and even years that we can do it again. In fact, with the online gamespace having grown so considerably in recent years we are confident that a significant number of MMO gamers will be drawn to a truly social game, to Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen.
If the game is engaging, slow paced, provides just enough "rewards" for that feeling of accomplishment, and there is a sense of adventure and belonging, I will stay a very longtime.
I do not race to max level, I am not into raiding.
My loss of interest in recent games has more to do with the feeling that you HAVE to do the quests, and you fell like you are just running from one quest giver to the next. That the items I am looting are meaningless, which in turn gives me no real connection to my character.
I play games to entertain myself, to remove myself from the doldrums of RL, and to do that, I need to feel connected to my character and thier belongings. I need a sense of being part of the world, not just in the world.
Provide me a virtual world I can live in, that is more like a daily vacation than just logging in to play a game, and I will play.
Super fast content releases are clearly not the answer and only caters to people who can play non-stop. I think Pantheon is doing the right thing here. Having leveling content be more challenging and take more time will increase longevity. Leveling will no longer be that chore to do to get to the real game. Those who have time to play non-stop will be able to have geared alts that the rest of us will never have time for.
Next is released content. Without the need for linear dungeons you won't be stuck on 5-10 repeated deungeons at cap level. These never change and after a short while become playable in your sleep. With things being either outdoors or with multiple groups in a dangerous dungeon things become slower. No rush rush rush pull pull pull but rather sitting at a camp and chatting with people while you try to deal with the challenges of splitting a camp up or handling a patrol properly. I think they are doing the right things for longevity.
Nephele said:... So with that in mind - what else should Pantheon do in its design to help prevent burnout and retain players? Would love to hear everyone's thoughts on this subject :)
Permit tangible daily personal power progress/increase. Do that, and your target demographic will play the game forever.
vjek said:Nephele said:... So with that in mind - what else should Pantheon do in its design to help prevent burnout and retain players? Would love to hear everyone's thoughts on this subject :)Permit tangible daily personal power progress/increase. Do that, and your target demographic will play the game forever.
Unless the available content can't keep up with the power of the players (without breaking rules like introducing bosses with one-shot mechanics or that ignore player resistances/defenses/immunities)
Great question!
I can only speak for my own experience here, although I do share a lot of others so far, but for me my most common cause for burnout is when the game is too repetitive or has too much RNG.
What I mean by too much repetitiveness is that most games these days tend to have an end game consisting of: Run this dungeon(s) over and over to get geared for raid, then run this raid(s) to get geared, then just do dailies every day. Dailies are the literal bane of my existence. They can be good if theres a lot of them and they randomly rotate so you aren't doing the same menial tasks every day. Otherwise they are just boring. Also having things locked behind dailies is the worst idea ever. There are people like me who will do them if they have to but they'll hate every minute of it.
The end game needs to give choice to the player. Have a lot of different things I can opt to do that day and none that I "must" do or fall behind; mostly talking about repetitive things here, keys/flags and other 1 time things are perfectly fine.
RNG ... everyone has a love/hate relationship here. Every game needs it to a point but when is that point too much? Wow Legendaries ended my wow career. Powerful items that if you didn't have the best 2 out of the available 30, you could not compete. Guilds sat people who didn't have the ones they needed. At Legion launch, you got on avg 1 legendary every 2 weeks and you could get the same one twice. This was a horrendously bad idea. Even more so when they began to tune raids based on having the proper legendaries. After 3 months in Legion, I had 3 different legendaries (got the same one 2 different times) all of them were crap. Watching myself go from #1-2 on the dps meters and slowly falling to #10 simply because of 2 items I could do nothing about was the end for me.
Like many others my first love, the game that really got me hooked on MMOs, was EQ. I played it for about 6 years regularly and then another year on and off. With the release of Agnarr I actually resubbed for about 7 months regularly and then another month or so off an on but ultimately quit because it still wasn't the same game that got me hooked. Nothing since then has been able to fill the void, and I've tried Wow, EQ2, GW1-2, Tera, and probably everything in between. But when I found out about PRF (especially that Brad was leading the charge) I actually got excited and I haven't been so hyped for a game since I can remember.
As for the topic of burnout I don't think there's anything you can do to prevent it so much as mitigate it as much as possible. As it's been mentioned before in this thread new content can just end up being a chore for some people. But I feel like those people are also the hardcore players that have to be at end game at all times. In my 6 regular years of EQ I never once hit max level or end game. I was always several levels (probably 5-7) behind max level and seldom raided, mostly due to RL time constraints. But the positive to that was there was always something for me to do. By the time I was reaching old end game content the new stuff was already out and I was still at least a little capitvated by that old content. So really I think it's a player-by-player basis, but my only recommendation would be to take your time. It's nice to be at end game, I would assume, but it's better to enjoy the game and explore and really take in the content, no matter how far behind you are.
Love all the responses so far :) Thanks everyone for indulging me!
Here's some stuff I had in my head when I wrote the OP. I didn't put it in there because I didn't want to put words in anyone's mouths, so to speak.
1) Meaningful horizontal progressions - in most games, you have your primary leveling/gear progression, and everything else is a "side activity". I think that changing that up, and saying "hey, levels are important, but working on factions, skills, collecting different items, and other stuff are really important too, and not just at max level" will help insure that players have meaningful goals for longer.
2) A broad selection of content at every level range - in most games, there is ONE set of content to do, and everyone does that same set of content. Make an alt? You're doing the same dungeons, the same quests that you did on your first character. I think there should be enough stuff out there to choose from that there's some replay value to creating alts, just because you can choose a different path.
3) Having both shared group/guild goals AND individual goals. My current game is great at giving players individual goals to go accomplish, but it literally does almost nothing to give groups/guilds goals. There should be things that you and your friends or your guild want to accomplish together, and they shouldn't all involve raiding. At the same time though, there should also be things that you want to accomplish individually, whether it's finishing that really neat quest you found, or attaining your armor set, or whatever.
4) A changing world where each area has an ongoing "story". In just about every game out there, the world pretty much stays static from month to month and year to year to year. Those orcs threatening the city are always there. The bandits are always in that old ruin up on the hill. That farmer always seems to have a problem with wolves getting after his chickens. What if that stuff actually changed over time? After months of getting assaulted by adventurers, the orcs move into some caves on the other side of the valley that are more defensible.... and inadvertently wake up the dragon sleeping there. The nearby towns band together and drive the bandits out of the ruin, and start repairing them to use as a fort - but politics ensue, and soon the different lords are in open warfare over the location. In the meantime, a mysterious plague has begun afflicting the townsfolk. After getting lots of adventurers to help with his wolf problem, that farmer is doing pretty well - so well, in fact, that he's increased the size of his farm, and hired on more farmhands to clear more land for planting... but that hasn't gone unnoticed by his competition, who have hired some thugs to.... well, you get the idea.
There's probably a lot more, but when I was thinking "what could the game do to prevent burnout", these were some of the things I came up with.
Preechr said:... Unless the available content can't keep up with the power of the players (without breaking rules like introducing bosses with one-shot mechanics or that ignore player resistances/defenses/immunities)
Combat can be the least important of 10 progression paths, if desired.
Fulton said:If the game is engaging, slow paced, provides just enough "rewards" for that feeling of accomplishment, and there is a sense of adventure and belonging, I will stay a very longtime.
I do not race to max level, I am not into raiding.
My loss of interest in recent games has more to do with the feeling that you HAVE to do the quests, and you fell like you are just running from one quest giver to the next. That the items I am looting are meaningless, which in turn gives me no real connection to my character.
I play games to entertain myself, to remove myself from the doldrums of RL, and to do that, I need to feel connected to my character and thier belongings. I need a sense of being part of the world, not just in the world.
Provide me a virtual world I can live in, that is more like a daily vacation than just logging in to play a game, and I will play.
THIS !!
A lot of what VR is doing is intended to directly address burnout/boredom with current MMO style. I think mindful planning, passion, and vision on part of the dev team are key. Also experience.
For me personally there are a few things that have nothing to do with the game itself, such as getting to play from release or beta. Logging into a game that has already been totally explored is just not as fun for me.
In terms of actual game mechanics, there is nothing that is make or break for me. I loved EQ, I also loved WOW, and now all I play is LoL. But what all those games have in common is a community of people you have shared goals with. The shared experience is what I really look for I guess.
I agree with Vjek in saying that tangible progress is highly desirable. It doesn't need to be limited to personal progress; as long as I can log in and help a friend with a goal, I will be happy. The key, in my opinion, is creating a diverse tree of progression paths. Progeny and situational gear are two features that I am very excited about because they would naturally extend the shelf-life of progression opportunities for a lot of players I associate myself with. Meaningful faction is another thing I am excited to see make a return to MMO's -- hopefully this can exist without a need for daily commitment. I agree with Enitzu in saying that gating rewards behind "daily quests" is the bane of my existence. I will do them, but I will most likely hate the process. It becomes even more monotonous and repetitive when all of my friends commit to doing them as well because I have a natural tendency to help others and that's a recipe for disaster if you're talking about doing the same content over and over again for multiple people every single day.
Overall, I really agree with Nephele's assessment. Horizontal Progression supports the "Content is King" ideology. A broad selection of content at every level range is also critical; when I end up replaying the game through progeny, it would be absolutely ideal if I could experience other areas of the game that I may have missed on a prior leveling phase. Shared goals is probably the most imporant aspect of all. If my friends lose their desire to log in, trouble is on the horizon. I experienced this first-hand in Vanguard. I convinced 20+ players from my EQ2 guild to make the move with me to Vanguard. It was a tough choice because there were veteran players from our guild that would not or could not make the transition. My guild burned out rather quickly in Vanguard but I really blame that on the game being released before it was ready. A changing world would also be a breath of fresh air -- I think there is a special kind of allure that drives players to want to exact change into the world around them. Give them the tools to do so.
Besides actual progression, I think it's important to have some sort of "mini-game" that has high replay value. This can be controlled PVP (Arena), a feature like diplomacy from Vanguard, a Coliseum (PVE Ladder), player controlled towns/villages, etc. I like to reflect back on my SNES RPG days and think about what captivated me the most. Township from Breath of Fire 2. The 100 Floor Dungeon from Lufia 2. The Coliseum from FFVI, the Dragon Eggs from FFVI, the water soccer game from FFX, the card game from FFVIII, the carnival from Chrono Trigger, Fishing/Hunting from Breath of Fire 2, The Golden Saucer from FFVII, so on and so forth. Township and the 100 Floor Dungeon are two things that I would absolutely love to see in an MMO. It's my understanding that FFXIV tried to recreate the 100 Floor Dungeon from Lufia 2 with Palace of the Dead. I never played it but it's my understanding that they did things a little bit differently. The type of replay value that could be had in a dungeon like that is absolutely insane and the best part is that your most hardcore players can play it to their hearts content without growing in power that would have an impact on the rest of the world. A dungeon like that would take the cake.
A lot of the things that have been annoucned are good steps. But, broadly:
1) Regular content additions are unavoidably essential. If it feels like the next addition will never come, you will lose players. But, on the other hand, token content additions for their own sake often backfire and offend the playerbase. From the development standpoint, figure out a release schedule you can manage, and try to stick to it. WoW has had a couple bad examples of the content gap problem, while both it (Halion) and EQ2 (AoD, AoM, and to some extent the first two adventure packs) are examples of the "token content doesn't satisfy" problem.
2) At the same time, don't make new content render old content utterly valueless. No one expects the entire game to stay relevant as content rolls out. Rift promised that, and had to walk it back under a cone of shame. EQ remains the master of this, with clickies and other unique objects making backtracking valuable. People mock achievement systems, but they do some good here, too. I have mixed personal feelings about transmog/appearance customization, but even WoW finally recognized that giving incentives to using "old" content benefits game longetivity. Needless to say, extreme culture-shock changes in gameplay expectations with new content are also very bad. EQ's Gates of Discord will always be the banner example of that problem, but Blade & Soul had a big problem with this, albeit in a different way (combined with other problems).
3) Pace the game appropriately for your audience and development cycles. Missing the mark on either side is bad. Despite what some people argue, you don't want new content releases when old content remains fundamentally untouched, such as WoW's original Naxx40 raid.
4) Make horizontal activities with a different pacing (almost certainly slower) than the primary progression. Whether that's EQ-like faction gain, EQ2 shinies collection, or whatever. But, equally critically, make them have some sort of benefit. There's a tricky balance there. You don't want an ultra-long-cycle subgame to feel mandatory, because that's a pacing error. But if all it gets you is a feeling of accomplishment, that's not a compelling reason to commit. EQ/EQ2 faction work was certainly long, but rarely meant anything. WoW often gives mounts, pets, and toys at the top of the reputation climb, but their reputation ladders seem to toggle between execrable daily-gain-locked play that feels like work (Pandaria/Draenor reputations), versus essentially trivial accomplishments expected from primary gameplay (Legion reputations).
I played EQ for 3-4 years, and it was my first MMO experience. Everything was new, my older brother played right along with me, and I found a good guild of people that I talk to - and have met personally - still to this day.
Next was EQ2, which was, admittedly, nothing extraordinary. It had original EQ to thank for its mainstream success, but as far as innovation, it wasn't much different than WoW. There were too many classes, they tried too hard to balance, hotbuttons took up the whole dag gum screen, and quests were linear; BUT, the same guild I was with in EQ came to EQ2, so I still had my group. Stuck around there for another 3 years, and played heavily during that time.
Then there was LOTRO - another game eerily similar to the others. What made it stick out wass the lore and the history behind it. The already established world of Tolkien that made it come alive. There, I fell in love with the Warden class (and tanking) and created my first guild. My brother was playing, and a good buddy, and we had a damn good time. Poured a lot of my social life into building that guild, and my reputation along with it.
The only common denominator between these games was the social aspect. Vanguard was a wonderful game, but it was so empty that I never found my niche. Oh, sometimes I would come across a group of folks and group with them regularly, but it never lasted - and those times stand out above all the rest of my time in Vanguard.
In all of those games - EQ, EQ2, and LOTRO - I had to stop playing for various reasons. Jobs, girlfriends, etc; but none of those reasons were from burnout. I attribute that to the people I met and played with. If Pantheon wants that kind of longevity, the social groundwork needs to be laid and take precedence over all others. Content is only content, but it becomes an experience when it's done with people you've become close to.
oneADseven said:Besides actual progression, I think it's important to have some sort of "mini-game" that has high replay value. This can be controlled PVP (Arena), a feature like diplomacy from Vanguard, a Coliseum (PVE Ladder), player controlled towns/villages, etc. I like to reflect back on my SNES RPG days and think about what captivated me the most. Township from Breath of Fire 2. The 100 Floor Dungeon from Lufia 2. The Coliseum from FFVI, the Dragon Eggs from FFVI, the water soccer game from FFX, the card game from FFVIII, the carnival from Chrono Trigger, Fishing/Hunting from Breath of Fire 2, The Golden Saucer from FFVII, so on and so forth.
Now this is a cool thought. I wouldn't mind seeing something in the style of the mini card games from FF or KotOR, something funny and a little competitive.
I remeber when we used to play DotA while waiting for raids to start. It would be cool to have an in-game game that we could monkey around with while we wait.
You could make rare cards drop from mobs or be crafted or quested. You could even have in-game tournaments with silly prizes. Not sure if that sort of thing is in line with VR's vision though.