I am hoping that zones will not get bottled up if one person goes afk during zoneing. Early in eq1 I was trying to zone and when I finished zoneing there was this Uglyogre sitting on the zone line and I could not move. He was there for a good 10-15 minutes. After he finally came back he said his 2 year old fell and was hurt. I was sympathetic with him and being a grandfather at the time completely understood.
I tried backing around him but only to rezone out. When I returned there he was again.
My issue is with verant and why they did not give eople more room to move once zoned. this happened a few times but never as long as the first time. Will there be a "buffer zone" when you log in so you can get aroung someone stuck in zone mode.
Well, one thing that might help is that when you zone out of a dungeon they don't drop you directly at the zone line. Have the zone out pop point be a bit away from the zone in line.
This has to do with character collisions and affects not just zone lines but doors etc and griefing players.
Discussed here. https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4626/character-collision
Zeem said:This has to do with character collisions and affects not just zone lines but doors etc and griefing players.
Discussed here. https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4626/character-collision
The downside to turning off chaaracter collisions is that people can then walk through each other.
If zone lines are going to be like lower guk dead side, where if you zoned in, sometimes you were immediately zoned out becaues you slid off a trolls back or were pushed back and cross the zone line? Sure, I'll take being able to walk through other characters any time rather than that. Same goes with Karnor's. Someone trains VS to the zone line, and you zone out to dragon fear from Gorenaire, which promptly walks you back across the line into Venril? Yeah, I've died to that enough, I can do without dieing to it again. :)
If player collision can be selective, per zone? That has some potential for a solution. If you can toggle it (you should be able to, most engines allow it), temporarily, by walking? Also a great solution. Walk mode would have to be preserved through zoning, though.I'm not sure if this is possible (it should be), but it might be possible to make a player collision box that is very small, essentially a very small diamond shape that is 10% of the size of the overall character model, centered in the middle, that lets players 'slide' around other players, but would mostly prevent blocking.
That way, it's not so immersion breaking as simply walking through someone, but you lose the social toxicity of 5 ogres blocking the zone line for hours at a time.
vjek said:If zone lines are going to be like lower guk dead side, where if you zoned in, sometimes you were immediately zoned out becaues you slid off a trolls back or were pushed back and cross the zone line? Sure, I'll take being able to walk through other characters any time rather than that. Same goes with Karnor's. Someone trains VS to the zone line, and you zone out to dragon fear from Gorenaire, which promptly walks you back across the line into Venril? Yeah, I've died to that enough, I can do without dieing to it again. :)
If player collision can be selective, per zone? That has some potential for a solution. If you can toggle it (you should be able to, most engines allow it), temporarily, by walking? Also a great solution. Walk mode would have to be preserved through zoning, though.I'm not sure if this is possible (it should be), but it might be possible to make a player collision box that is very small, essentially a very small diamond shape that is 10% of the size of the overall character model, centered in the middle, that lets players 'slide' around other players, but would mostly prevent blocking.
That way, it's not so immersion breaking as simply walking through someone, but you lose the social toxicity of 5 ogres blocking the zone line for hours at a time.
Your first paragraph is precicesly why I mentioned "collision detection and movement" based zoning. Then there is no need for selective colision.
From Aradune:
"It is not a grid of Vanguard chunks -- Pantheon is a zoned based world. But the zones, especially the outdoor zones, are very large and it's easy for us to make them look correct, adjacent to each other. We are striving for the 'if you can see it, you can get there' goal. So we don't need to 'funnel' you through from one zone to another like we often had to in EQ. So while it's technically more like EQ, it feels more like VG. It's more open, the zones are larger (so you will see the 'loading please wait' less frequently, and the zones load pretty quickly), and we don't need to make those strange corridors between zones like we did with EQ."
(Source: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2184/updated-map
Also, I suggest you continue to conversation in this thread: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5064/forest-zone-bottleneck-in-pantheon
Kalok said: Your first paragraph is precicesly why I mentioned "collision detection and movement" based zoning. Then there is no need for selective colision.
Sure, but if you toggle it on/off with walking, then you can use it to get through players who, say, for example, wanted to block the bank entrance. (not at a zone line) No issue. Walk through.
vjek said:Kalok said: Your first paragraph is precicesly why I mentioned "collision detection and movement" based zoning. Then there is no need for selective colision.Sure, but if you toggle it on/off with walking, then you can use it to get through players who, say, for example, wanted to block the bank entrance. (not at a zone line) No issue. Walk through.
Turning it off with walking is just the same as not having it at all.
Player collision adds next to nothing other than headaches for a PvE server/game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCEMrTWL8gk
Or Star Wars Galaxies where people would lure others into houses then block them inside for hours.
Iksar said:Player collision adds next to nothing other than headaches for a PvE server/game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCEMrTWL8gk
Or Star Wars Galaxies where people would lure others into houses then block them inside for hours.
I disagree.... Given that Pantheon is a real PvE game, meaning that the environment itself can kill you, collision is very important to the integrity of the game.
You might be conflating player collision with environment collision. They're definitely not the same, and can be separated, mechanically.
So far, there's nothing that's been described or shown to us by Visionary Realms that would indicate player collision is involved in "The Environment" killing you. I mean, falling off a cliff , sure. :)
vjek said:You might be conflating player collision with environment collision. They're definitely not the same, and can be separated, mechanically.
So far, there's nothing that's been described or shown to us by Visionary Realms that would indicate player collision is involved in "The Environment" killing you. I mean, falling off a cliff , sure. :)
I'm not "conflating" anything. I know the difference.
If you're walking across a narrow walkway, as a part of the danger, you WANT to have to worry about knocking others from your group off. It's part of the "danger".
There has been nothing described saying that there's NOT player collision involved in "the environment" killing you either.
I think the easiest way to ensure that griefing is not a problem is to disable player collisions when the player is unable to attack the other. On a PVP server, this is a non-issue; you can always kill the griefer. On a PVE server, blocking the bank or zone line results in increased petitions/reports and hurts the gameplay of others. Collisions with other players on a PVE server adds nothing to game.
Note, I am making a distinction between player collisions and NPC collisions. NPC collisions can add to the gameplay mechanics.
Hadekin said:I think the easiest way to ensure that griefing is not a problem is to disable player collisions when the player is unable to attack the other. On a PVP server, this is a non-issue; you can always kill the griefer. On a PVE server, blocking the bank or zone line results in increased petitions/reports and hurts the gameplay of others. Collisions with other players on a PVE server adds nothing to game.
Note, I am making a distinction between player collisions and NPC collisions. NPC collisions can add to the gameplay mechanics.
I think you're assuming a non-existant problem to try and fix. Aradune has already stated that zone bottlenecks will not occur. Even if they did, it would be trivial to resolve with collision detection on zoning. Personally, I believe that you're WAY overstating the amount of griefing that happens due to intentionally blocked areas.
Player character collisions ALSO add to the gameplay mechanics. For example: You are traveling along a slippery narrow walkway. You have to worry about your group members knlocking you off as well as you having to worry about knocing others off. That makes it so that you have to be careful with regards to others in addition to yourself.
Edited to add: Not allowing player character collisions is just another "padded room and handrail" method of protecting people from the environment and their actions.
Kalok said:... If you're walking across a narrow walkway, as a part of the danger, you WANT to have to worry about knocking others from your group off. It's part of the "danger". ...
Heheh, no I don't. I would never want that. You can put me firm in the "no" pile if the choice is between no player-to-player-character-collision and being griefed to death. If I want that, I'll play a PvP game.
I've also never seen a non-PvP-centric MMO have such a thing, personally.
vjek said:Kalok said:... If you're walking across a narrow walkway, as a part of the danger, you WANT to have to worry about knocking others from your group off. It's part of the "danger". ...Heheh, no I don't. I would never want that. You can put me firm in the "no" pile if the choice is between no player-to-player-character-collision and being griefed to death. If I want that, I'll play a PvP game.
I've also never seen a non-PvP-centric MMO have such a thing, personally.
Yep, queue up the griefers in that scenario. They've already shown climbing steep areas and jumps in Amberfaet and there would be nothing to stop one or two people from blocking an entire server from progressing. Can't report them because they could legit be AFK for an emergency. Players knocking others off bridges/slopes etc would be a paradise for jerks as it would be extremely hard to prove intent especially as you would have such accidents from innocent people doing it. In a game where death (as far as we know) takes so much from a player allowing such things would be a mistake.
Iksar said:vjek said:Kalok said:... If you're walking across a narrow walkway, as a part of the danger, you WANT to have to worry about knocking others from your group off. It's part of the "danger". ...Heheh, no I don't. I would never want that. You can put me firm in the "no" pile if the choice is between no player-to-player-character-collision and being griefed to death. If I want that, I'll play a PvP game.
I've also never seen a non-PvP-centric MMO have such a thing, personally.
Yep, queue up the griefers in that scenario. They've already shown climbing steep areas and jumps in Amberfaet and there would be nothing to stop one or two people from blocking an entire server from progressing. Can't report them because they could legit be AFK for an emergency. Players knocking others off bridges/slopes etc would be a paradise for jerks as it would be extremely hard to prove intent especially as you would have such accidents from innocent people doing it. In a game where death (as far as we know) takes so much from a player allowing such things would be a mistake.
vjek said:Kalok said:... If you're walking across a narrow walkway, as a part of the danger, you WANT to have to worry about knocking others from your group off. It's part of the "danger". ...Heheh, no I don't. I would never want that. You can put me firm in the "no" pile if the choice is between no player-to-player-character-collision and being griefed to death. If I want that, I'll play a PvP game.
I've also never seen a non-PvP-centric MMO have such a thing, personally.
Personally, I think you and Iksar are REALLY wearing out the "griefers" argumen.
Basically neither of you seem to want anything challenging in the game because of what MIGHT happen. Maybe it's time you expand your vision beyond looking for non-existent trouble.
Kaen said:Iksar said:vjek said:Kalok said:... If you're walking across a narrow walkway, as a part of the danger, you WANT to have to worry about knocking others from your group off. It's part of the "danger". ...Heheh, no I don't. I would never want that. You can put me firm in the "no" pile if the choice is between no player-to-player-character-collision and being griefed to death. If I want that, I'll play a PvP game.
I've also never seen a non-PvP-centric MMO have such a thing, personally.
Yep, queue up the griefers in that scenario. They've already shown climbing steep areas and jumps in Amberfaet and there would be nothing to stop one or two people from blocking an entire server from progressing. Can't report them because they could legit be AFK for an emergency. Players knocking others off bridges/slopes etc would be a paradise for jerks as it would be extremely hard to prove intent especially as you would have such accidents from innocent people doing it. In a game where death (as far as we know) takes so much from a player allowing such things would be a mistake.
Yep, this would just invite griefing... I can see trios or groups of rogues or non-visis blocking bridges, pushing people off, boxing in AFKs, all sorts of dumb stuff.
Although... I do like that player collision gives the game a more realistic, immersive feel. Outside of the scenarios listed above, I'm not really against it. I'm wholeheartedly against player-monster collision.
Like the other two, I think you're borrowing non-existent trouble. That seems to be eveeryone's answer to any challenging content... "Oh noes!! It might get exploited by griefers!!"
Kalok said:Personally, I think you and Iksar are REALLY wearing out the "griefers" argumen.
The number of times an argument is used does not diminish its validity.
Kalok said:Like the other two, I think you're borrowing non-existent trouble. That seems to be eveeryone's answer to any challenging content... "Oh noes!! It might get exploited by griefers!!"
Describing character collision as "content" is quite a stretch, to say the least.
Did you miss me?
Liav said:Kalok said:Personally, I think you and Iksar are REALLY wearing out the "griefers" argumen.
The number of times an argument is used does not diminish its validity.
Kalok said:Like the other two, I think you're borrowing non-existent trouble. That seems to be eveeryone's answer to any challenging content... "Oh noes!! It might get exploited by griefers!!"
Describing character collision as "content" is quite a stretch, to say the least.
Did you miss me?
I did. I love your replies.
Kalok said: ... Like the other two, I think you're borrowing non-existent trouble. That seems to be eveeryone's answer to any challenging content... "Oh noes!! It might get exploited by griefers!!"
That's because in every MMO I've personally played in the past 20 years, every single mechanic that CAN be used to negatively affect the gameplay experience of another player? It IS used to negatively affect the gameplay experience of another player. Continuously. Until removed or changed so it can't be used in that way.
I only say it because I've seen it. It's not non-existent trouble, from my perspective. Rather it is historically demonstrated evidence.